Sadly if most computers weren’t ‘walled garden’ experiences then maybe the kids could learn to tinker and fix them. As it is if the issue can’t be fixed from a settings app then they’re stuck.
It’s funny because we always thought that the next generation’s technical knowledge would utterly eclipse ours, but instead they only know how to edit a short video to seem to loop infinitely.
Well in regards to editing short videos that loop, they have definitely eclipsed my skill (and willingness to learn)
Our parents didn’t think it was important. Our kids don’t think it is necessary.
Imagine how horse farmers felt about engine maintenance on the first automobiles. Early adopters probably knew everything about how to fix tractors and cars. But today, how many people know how to change their own brakes or flush the coolant?
Life evolves, and transitions come faster with every generation. It’s good that nobody knows how to use a sextant or a fax machine.
My dad thought computers were important. He got me a VIC-20 soon as they came out, and that was $1,800 in today’s money, not an amount he spent lightly.
Sure, obviously there were exceptions or we wouldn’t have half the modern conveniences we do. My parents were very enthusiastic about computers, and my kids are each building their own desktops. I’m speaking in generalities.
I think the modern car climate is a better comparison than the change from horse and buggy to Model T. Many people work on their own cars, but it’s mostly for fun and the increasing levels of computers and sensors in cars makes it more difficult to do all the work yourself. And then you add in the nuts and bolts car companies make that can only be unscrewed using special tools that the companies also make to force you to bring the car to one of their dealerships.
Tech literacy rates are falling like the skill to use a car with a manual transmission. Since everything kids do is on their phone, and phones are like that one car company that welded the hoods of their cars shut, they never need to pick up the skills with computer software that the work world expects them to have (but who really wants to know how to use Word and Excel anyways), nor the skills with working on your own hardware.
Sidenote: Fax machines are, unfortunately, still very much a thing. At least, if you ever have to deal with the federal government or the medical industry, they are.
I still know how to use a fax machine :(
It’s good that nobody knows how to use a sextant or a fax machine.
Modern Naval officers are taught to do navigation by starlight for backup purposes. Cause GPS ain’t that infallible.
Farmers right now are fighting a legal battle for the ability to repair their own tractors.
It’s not good for farm equipment to be locked down and sealed off just like it’s not good for operating systems to be locked down and sealed off.
I agree with you on that. I’d also like to be able to replace the battery on my phone or control my social media. But that wasn’t really my point. Disposable goods are bad for consumers and bad for the environment, along with fast fashion, factory farming, corporate conglomeration, and the vertical integration of news media.
And I think that’s the new frontier, which is really just reclaiming the old frontier from the profit-takers. People are learning to sew and knit, how to cook, how to farm, how to repair their stuff, and how to evaluate propaganda. That’s the shit our kids will say we never bothered to learn, and if they do it right, maybe their kids won’t have to learn.
or a fax machine
Healthcare industry is crying in the corner
I’m still mad we print so much stuff at work, it’s 2024 just update a spread sheet. I don’t need an email much less a physical copy of something I saw the update for an hour ago
I had to print out a PDF the other day because the software wouldn’t let me sign it, and then scan the document back into the computer.
It’s certainly partially that, but that’s not the whole picture. Before, every old thing “everyone” knew how to do was replaced with a new thing “everyone” knew how to do. But at the moment, is there a new thing? I can’t think of one. All but the most niche products are built to be as easy to use as possible, and if it breaks or slows down, replacement is more preferred than tinkering. I don’t see the same need anywhere to get our hands dirty that leads to widespread proficiency like the image is talking about.
I think centralization played a big role in this, at least for software. When messaging meant IRC, AIM, Yahoo, MSN, Xfire, Ventrilo, TeamSpeak, or any number of PHP forums, you had to be able to pick up new software quickly and conceptualized the thing it’s doing separate from the application it’s accomplished with. When they all needed to be installed from different places in different ways you conceptualize the file system and what an executable is to an extent. When every game needs a bit of debugging to get working and a bit of savvy to know when certain computer parts are incompatible, you need a bit of knowledge to do the thing you want to do.
That said, fewer people did it. I was in highschool when Facebook took off, and the number of people who went from never online to perpetually online skyrocketed.
I teach computer science, I know it isn’t wholly generational, but I’ve watched the decline over the past decade for the basics. Highschool students were raised on Chromebooks and tablets/phones and a homogenous software scene. Concepts like files, installations, computer components, local storage, compression, settings, keyboard proficiency, toolbars, context menus - these are all barriers for incoming students.
The big difference, I think, is that way more people (nearly everyone) has some technical proficiency, whereas before it was considered a popular enough hobby but most people were completely inept, but most of students nowadays are not proficient with things past a cursory level. That said, the ones who are technically inclined are extremely technically inclined compared to my era, in larger numbers at least.
Higher minimum and maximum thresholds, but maybe lower on average.
Idk. I built my first computer at 6 and ran an irc server for my class mates back in middle school. And I’m sure not many people would have done that back then either.
Im sure there’s plenty of curious and tech inclined kids these days. They just aren’t the majority. But we weren’t back then either.
lol at everyone here just assuming everyone else is the same age as them.
I think it’s pretty clear that the post is referring to people who are old enough to grow up with computers and now have children who are old enough to be fixing computers on their own.
It feels pretty squarely aimed at millennials.
Mid to late gen x fall into this window too
Generations are such poor descriptors anyway. So if not the same age then at least of an age.
in my experience, younger kids either don’t know anything about computers or are obsessed with them. I don’t see a lot of the middle
Not only that, but co-workers from my own generation also don’t know how to fix their own computers, so I’m just surrounded by people that have no idea how any of it works.
I think that’s the real crux of it. Most people don’t know. There may have been a bump in literacy, but most people don’t know, don’t care, and don’t need to. If we had better education, this kind of thing could be a core class. I had computer classes, but they mainly focused on typing and specific programs. Basically nothing about components, the command prompt, programming, different OS, etc. Granted this was many years ago, but I live in Florida. So, it’s probably worse.
Counterpoint, most of the stuff I learned in my highschool A+ class (aimed at teaching you enough to pass a certification test that proves you can repair computers) was outdated already that year, and it’s like 95% outdated now. Typing and business productivity app skills are still directly valuable for most modern people.
Most valuable skills are things like learning how to learn, critical thinking, judgement, understanding the value of time, humility, etc. I’ll say that the A+ course was much better than most classes at growing those skills for me, but I could say the same thing about the construction course I took. American school system, at least when I was in it, is totally happy to output kids that only know math, science, english, and arts. It’s hard to teach those life skills, harder to test for them, do we just don’t.
Business apps are among the most useless things to teach, mainly because by the time they get out of school those apps already work very differently but also because they are useful to a very limited set of jobs.
Have to disagree, at least back then it was the first exposure most kids got to using a computer for work at all. Even if some of the content isn’t useful for most kids, it still challenges kids to learn some basic stuff they might not otherwise. I do think it’s a shame that it’s required even if you already know how to do everything the course teaches, but that could be said about most classes. Everyone needs to know basic computing shit, forcing people to learn Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and some other random apps is a fine way to do that, and those apps aren’t going anywhere in our lifetime, nor have they changed in a way that invalidates anything taught 20 years ago. I work with people who use a computer full time for their job and it’s obvious they didn’t take a basic course when they were in school 20-30 years ago, or any time since. I have nephews that are 11-15, haven’t taken anything like that yet and they are totally inept with even basic shit, because it wasn’t taught yet and most people don’t just learn without instruction.
Your last point about usefulness to a very limited set of jobs is silly considering how much actual useless to 99% of jobs shit they teach in the core curriculum. If we didn’t throw all this mostly useless shit at the whole of young society, some future great scientist, artist, mathematician, etc. would rot in ignorance, at least that’s the theory. Hard to say if the American education system is working at all though.
Boomer here. As a lifelong software developer I’ve always known more about computers than most people in my age group generally, but I’ve always assumed younger people know more than I do because they’ve grown up with so much more tech. Maybe they tend to be more at user-level with it. I’ve never thought about that.
Among other things I am responsible for setting up our users with software, and the young folk are not really any more capable than average boomers with PCs. They don’t understand the file system, basic cables, or even the most basic Windows settings.
basic cables
Bless his heart but we had a new guy setting his dock station up a couple years ago now, he tried daisy chaining his monitors display input together to make a dual display set up. We were small talking about our PC setup a little bit before this interaction. This was my moment of “what happened?”
I get that sometimes people don’t know exactly how something works and they get confused, like ethernet splitters not allowing you to split the output of one cable to two PCs. Fair enough, people used to cable TV and phone lines might not expect that behaviour.
What could possibly make you think monitors can be daisy chained? Nothing else in that space works that way either… Though now you’ve got me wondering about USB-C monitors and what kind of unholy hell of client confusion we might be bringing to our doorstep with those.
As a millenial nurse watching gen z new grads hunt and peck with their index fingers to write a shift note, 100%. I don’t think my parents really appreciated how much constantly being on AIM with my friends as a tween actually really benefited my typing skills in a way that’s been much more valuable to my career than algebra. All you need to be a nurse is ratio / proportion and kitchen measurements to track I/O. With a modern EMR that does most of the math for you you don’t even need that. The rest is latin and greek root words for various body parts and fluids.
Gotta love it when you come into a bit of a bitch & moan article about Tech and end up learning something new about Human Physiology and Medicine.
Cheers for that!
Another fun fact: the psychiatric term for my speech pattern (well, typing, but they’re both revealing of thought content), is “tangential!” It can be indicative of mania or psychosis but in this case it’s just ADHD so bad the neuropsychiatrist thought I was faking for drugs. They said my recent memory tests like I have dementia (sort of, mostly the rote part when they ask if you remember the random words they told you at the beginning). I’m really good at a bunch of the hands-on stuff but the EMR really saves my bacon on remembering everything.
Well, if I understood it correctly, my mother is very much like that (for example: it’s very hard to keep her on track to get to the end of a story without her getting lost of some lateral explanation about an explanation about a relativelly unimportant detail in the main story) and even I tended to work like that in the past (not so much nowadays), so your whole post for me was easy peasy to follow and a satisfying learning experience because it went into all sorts of interesting places :)
Judging by the upvotes from others, I would say I’m far from the only one.
It probably helps that here and in this post you’re basically talking about complex and interesting things to a pool of people with lots of above average intelligence, Education and/or curiosity ones.
Kids don’t even understand file structures because modern OSs obfuscate that stuff.
That’s my biggest gripe to be honest with modern OSs. My files in my folders are organized like I organize my house. I live in and around that. I hate the idea of a “Downloads” and other stuff with “automatically in the cloud backup for this app”. Give me a file to save you stupid app.
Android has taken away a lot of the manual usage shit when it comes to doing what you want of it on behalf of security protections. Well fuck you, if I want a program to have certain access to things I should be allowed to do it, whether you like it or not. My N20U still can’t have a full and proper root.
Yeah ya stupid app!
tell em!
A colleague was trying to share a 365 file with me last week. I didn’t have permission to open it. I was begging them to just save a “physical” copy to disk and email it to me. I hate the cloud.
Genuinely, Microsoft onedrive/365 share sucks ass. It just does. I got 365 Family since my family doesn’t know how to use anything else besides office apps so I just got the subscription that also gives you onedrive. So, I’ve been using that cloud storage if it’s available and god dammit, why is it so hard to share, find and search files in there.
I don’t mind that they simplify it. It makes it easier for more users. Its the fact that even advanced users can’t access it. Not a problem with a perfect app on a perfect operating system with perfect interoperability. None of those exist.
Kids aren’t well organized and file structures take time and practice to understand. No idea why anyone would assume a 10 year old who has been using a computer for maybe two or three years would be as experienced as a 30 year old who’d been doing the work for over 20.
Also, no shortage of Millennials who don’t know how computers work. I deal with them every day.
Other than iOS what computer OS hides file structures?
Android is atrocious with this. Windows can be pretty annoying as well, saving things but you have no idea where it is.
Honestly, I find the most frustrating part about file management on android is how terrible the AOSP file manager and most other files managers are. They simply do not make sense. For some reason, someone thought it would be a good idea to make the big button called “pictures” show you images regardless of where they are located instead of being a shortcut to the “pictures” directory.
Other than dumping files into documents and apps, windows is very open.
Android isn’t a PC OS.
Nobody said PC, Android is a computer operating system.
Smartphones are computers that occasionally make phone calls.
I said PC
No, you edited your post around 19 hours later to add “PC”. Honesty is not your strong point is it?
Yup I did change it. If I had kept it as “computer” that’s what you would have cried about. Even though it’s obvious computer means PC.
When people talk about smartphones they either call it that, or they say android/iOS
It’s sad that they keep trying to make PCs more like phones. I want phones to be more like PCs.
I agree 100%. It’s a bleak future.
What’s a computer?
Kids? Try being a manager trying to hire for entry level data work.
I got maybe one out of five people who even knew how to do basic things like opening windows explorer and navigating through folders. And from that slim margin, finding someone who actually knows how to use software like excel or outlook or word, it makes me want to reword the listing to say that we need people with 5 five years experience. For entry level.
I have become that which we hate. I am demanding experience for entry level work, simply because the entry-level work pool has zero knowledge how things work. You have spent all your time browsing and none of your time challenging yourselves to install software yourself, to copy and move files, or tried even opening your “settings” panel to adjust things. When I started working a lifetime ago, I took some free lessons in learning how to navigate excel and other popular programs. Using that TINY bit of training, I went on to make formulas and automated several of the systems at my first job. I went from counting screws in the warehouse to an eventual VP position.
You can get much, much further ahead of the curve if you actually try to learn a little more about the things you use every day, and you will grow your opportunities more than you can imagine.
Well I’m your man! Been using Windows since I stopped using DOS. I meet every requirement you’ve listed here for the job you’ve described and then some. And not one of your peers will give me a call back. Not one.
If nothing else, gimme some pointers about how to make it thru your ATS. If i can get human eyes I can get hired. Problem is getting that far.
And pay is 39k.
Amen. Been on the hunt for 3 years, had one call back. It’s brutal.
“Get off my lawn kids. And god forbid we train people.”
The common man won’t go out of their way to learn a software they don’t even know they will use. Why is it somehow worst for young people?
The personal computer as we grew up with is long gone, but somehow, companies and hiring managers expect everyone to be like it is still the case.
And let’s be real, the vast majority of people don’t know how to use excel even if they work with it every day. For them, it’s a database with a UI and a chart module.
So yeah, ask for 5 years experience for an entry level data entry position, that’ll fix it for you.
I’ve met software developers who didn’t know how to use Excel properly (in the sense of not even knowing they could use formulas).
I think that’s very much for the reason you state: they “won’t go out of their way to learn a software they don’t even know they will use”.
It’s not just a “common man” thing, it’s an everybody thing - there’s just too much stuff and not enough time to learn it all, so even software developers might never find themselves in a situation were they have to understand Excel enough to know such simple things as how to use functions in the cells, how to use references to other cells or how to make some references be relative to a cell’s position and other absolute.
Mind you, they’ll probably learn it way faster than “common” people simply because so much of its advanced usage follows “programmer logic”, but that still requires them to be forced to actually use it long enough and often enough that they put the effort into learning it.
As someone in the generation mentioned in the OP meme I can confirm, most people in my generation don’t know how to use Excel either, didn’t know it when we were younger and that is mostly because it is largely used in professional settings for a narrow range of jobs for its actual purpose and everyone else in a slightly wider range of jobs would be better off using a web app with an actual database.
My last job still had an access app for generating task lists
And I’m saying if you’ve never touched a file or folder system and all your experience online is using apps on your phone, DO NOT APPLY TO A DATA ENTRY JOB. Seriously, understand that if I have to teach you how to open windows explorer or how to copy and paste data, I am wasting my time and yours, you need to get a little more life experience or choose an entry level job that requires hands-on work.
For them, it’s a database with a UI and a chart module.
I am demanding experience for entry level work, simply because the entry-level work pool has zero knowledge how things work.
And they don’t need to, that’s not what entry level means.
If a skill isn’t needed in day to day life anymore and is needed for the job you’re putting out, it’s no longer a common knowledge skill.
When the talent pool changes, so should expectations.
I’m glad that many kids are into PC gaming, at least. That’s still a decent vector into computer proficiency and a little hardware knowledge.
I’m not sure how many kids will be into PC gaming when a low end Nvidia gpu is currently $550. I know that everything comes pre overclocked, and the 4070s still a good card even though it’s got a low and die in it it’s just depressing in the principle of it.
Maybe things like the steam deck will push kids into Linux since the mid-range gaming desktop is like two grand now.
I built a decent rig at the time 2 years ago for a 10 year old for less than 600€. Sure, some parts were used and it’s obviously no monster but he’s still using it daily. He’s learning how to upgrade it every time I have money for it, too.
You don’t have to buy all new Nvidia GPUs for $550 a piece to play games, ya know?
Yeah my first gaming pc was like…a crappy HP desktop with an Nvidia 6600 that I plugged in. Worked great for Age of Mythology lol
I made sure our kids got introduced to PC gaming. It sort of worked, they are more adept with windows then thier peers, but 0/3 have used thier shell accounts. They were into the persistent Minecraft server for a minute, but barely learned any console commands.
We must be the Oracles. We must preserve the ancient knowledge.
No, once you lived long enough and meet enough/work with enough people you may find it’s an interest thing. If your exposure is limited, it may be the type of humans you came into contact just aren’t computer savvy because they either arent interested and some are just not coherent enough about computers(and struggle a lot).
There are plenty of technical and non technical people who spread across generational and gender.
if you travelled into the past before computers and talked with enough people you’d still likely run into one who would be as interested as you are and probably learn it fairly quickly just out of interest
Try teaching them.
“Try teaching an impatient person, who undervalues the subject matter, already missed several opportunities to learn about it in formal education settings and who you lack a teacher-student dynamic with…”
Or, in a way…
“It’s one banana, Michael - what could it cost, $10?”
Of course my suggestion wasn’t without limits. Personally I will try to help/teach anyone once. If they continue to not make any effort then neither will I.
I refuse to fix anything for my inlaws without them watching me. I make them watch me Google the solutions and follow the instructions. It helps reinforce the “it’s not magic and I’m not a wizard” reality I want to instill in everyone.
This seems like an opportunity to quote one my shirts “I can explain it to you but I can’t understand it for you”. Teaching always involves two willing people.
