Sadly if most computers weren’t ‘walled garden’ experiences then maybe the kids could learn to tinker and fix them. As it is if the issue can’t be fixed from a settings app then they’re stuck.
I feel this meme so much, TPM. I had to look up how to reinstall Windows 10 for my kid’s computer because it was all messed up. I don’t know my way around windows anymore, but she’s apparently unable to just look this shit up and do it herself.
Wait, sort of like my parents and in-laws…
Feels like it doesn’t it? I enjoyed taking apart and fixing the family computer as a kid but it was also out of necessity. If it wasn’t me? Then who else would or could?
I’m still trying to decide if it’s a “when I was a kid I used to clean my own carburetor” situation. Like, is it a “back in my day men were men and we fixed our computers by hand”, or more so, there’s just not a need to dig into computers unless you enjoy it like any other hobby.
I fix my own computer and my own car …for me, it’s a poverty thing!
I don’t think the meme should be exclusively about building/fixing PCs though. Half the young people starting in our business show the same ineptitude as my parents when tasks with clicking stuff.
No one yet has touched on the success of planned obsolescence.
My dad can write DOS commands better than most people my age can and I work in Tech. beyond that? he’s clueless. Younger generations can either type with their thumbs or their index fingers and know absolutely nothing about how things work. If it’s an app they can open on their phones or tablet devices then perfect, they’re all over it. Beyond that? no way.
People my age and from my generation can type well, can figure things out and fix issues on computers, and know our way around tech. Why? cause we were raised in an age where things were essentially “kicking off”. I was taught typing in high school. Beyond that most of us used AIM, ICQ, MSN Messenger, mIRC, etc so if we weren’t taught it in high school we learned it that way.
We learned html, php, javascript, etc via Geocities, setting up PHP messageboards, hell even just customizing our Myspace page. younger generations don’t have anything like that so they don’t know it. We learned it in our free time to customize our online experience. We had daily consistent shows like The ScreenSavers or Call for Help to teach us how to use Windows or even introduce us to Linux. I learned to build my first PC thanks to Leo Laporte and Patrick Norton. countless magazines and books to pick up to read how to do stuff. And in those days if you wanted to game on PC you pretty much had to build your own PC. No one made prebuilt custom gaming pcs. So you had to learn that stuff.
Today things are all prebuilt for you. gaming pcs, phones and tablet apps, etc. People today just want things to “just work” and if there’s anything needed beyond opening an app and logining in then they’re not interested. Finding and signing up for instances? forget it.
Ugh I wish you hadn’t reminded me of screensavers. I loved that show! Now I feel old and sad haha
I love Leo and Patrick. I think Leo is still doing The New ScreenSavers and Patrick is off doing an AV podcast last I checked. I miss their shows on rev3 too
My four-year-old daughter is shockingly proficient with a mouse and keyboard. Kid goes to town on Spyro: Reignited. My wife snagged an old PC from her office and we want to set it up for her eventually for learning, light gaming and MS Paint. We figure in another year or two we can set up a family Minecraft server and get her in on it. The dream is to get her playing Valheim with us when she’s older.
Hoping she will be as good with PCs and I am, and would love to help her build one when she’s grown.
Mine started Minecraft at 5. She never took to Valhiem, and plays minecraft instead. She’s 16 now.
does M$ Paint really still exist?
As a real answer, yes, you can still install traditional Paint, as well as that garbage-but-at-least-it-supports-tranparency Paint 3D.
Hehehe, boy are you in for a treat!
shes old enough to start learning hardware now! i absolutely did this with my kids when they were 3-6. take an old pc apart, put it back together with them naming the parts. they all loved it. a toddler trying to say ‘processor’ is hilarious btw. only one (25%) seemed to continue playing with hardware but they all know what makes up a pc and he is the one running the family minecraft in docker.
But if you are the parent that knows everything about this why not teach your kids? Great bonding opportunity and they get to not be clueless about it.
Idk. I built my first computer at 6 and ran an irc server for my class mates back in middle school. And I’m sure not many people would have done that back then either.
Im sure there’s plenty of curious and tech inclined kids these days. They just aren’t the majority. But we weren’t back then either.
I suspect that back in the day there was a generation that were “the only ones who knew how cars worked” (in that it had a far higher number of people who could do their own car repairs).
It’s the product of having grown up in a time when that technology was going from niche to widespread - a time when its still clunky, fickle and needs a lot of babysitting and before it was mainly made “so simple that any idiot can use it” - so if you were one of those people who got into it back then, you were forced to understand it more in depth merely to keep it going. Those who grew up before that simply never became familiar with it, whilst those who grew up later only ever had to understand how to the mature-stage user interfaces of that Tech, which are designed for maximum accessibility with minimum learning curve (which amongst other things means minimizing the need for deep understanding of what’s going on) and did not need to know how to maintain it since “maintenance” had by then become “get a new one and click this button to migrate your info”.
You can see a similar thing going on with 3D printers: earlier models are fickle and need all sorts of tweaks and understanding of what’s going on to get decent prints out of them plus required frequent maintenance (amongst other things, you quite literally have to periodically retighten the screws of whatever kit FDM printer you got otherwise print quality worsens over time) whilst the later consumer-oriented products make everything simpler.
Cries in Ender 3 :'(
I don’t think that’s true, the length of time that cars were simple enough to do most of your own maintenance lasted a long time, from the very first cars through to the 80s or so, until computerisation meant the only real fault finding you could do was swapping parts without specialist equipment.
I grew up in the 80s and most people around could only ever do the whole “check the oil level and add some more if needed” and the same for the water for the window wipers.
Granted, nowadays some people can’t even do the latter.
I too grew up in the in that era. But grew up in the Detroit area where nearly everybody knew something about cars due to how many people worked in the auto industry and how the knowledge was prevelant and shared amongst friends and peers. Auto shops were still a thing, but largely used for jobs nobody wanted to do, didn’t have access to the tools, or didn’t have the time to invest
90s-late 00s cars are actually on repairability in my experience, because they already have computers which help you diagnose failures easily with a $20 OBD2 scanner (this saved my ass a couple of times, when I could almost immediately see the error whenever my car died, fiddle or re-plug the wiring of the failed component and keep going), and they don’t yet have all the over-complicated, designed-to-fail, hard-to-reach crap that a lot of new cars have.
in my experience, younger kids either don’t know anything about computers or are obsessed with them. I don’t see a lot of the middle
Not only that, but co-workers from my own generation also don’t know how to fix their own computers, so I’m just surrounded by people that have no idea how any of it works.
I think that’s the real crux of it. Most people don’t know. There may have been a bump in literacy, but most people don’t know, don’t care, and don’t need to. If we had better education, this kind of thing could be a core class. I had computer classes, but they mainly focused on typing and specific programs. Basically nothing about components, the command prompt, programming, different OS, etc. Granted this was many years ago, but I live in Florida. So, it’s probably worse.
Counterpoint, most of the stuff I learned in my highschool A+ class (aimed at teaching you enough to pass a certification test that proves you can repair computers) was outdated already that year, and it’s like 95% outdated now. Typing and business productivity app skills are still directly valuable for most modern people.
Most valuable skills are things like learning how to learn, critical thinking, judgement, understanding the value of time, humility, etc. I’ll say that the A+ course was much better than most classes at growing those skills for me, but I could say the same thing about the construction course I took. American school system, at least when I was in it, is totally happy to output kids that only know math, science, english, and arts. It’s hard to teach those life skills, harder to test for them, do we just don’t.
Business apps are among the most useless things to teach, mainly because by the time they get out of school those apps already work very differently but also because they are useful to a very limited set of jobs.
Have to disagree, at least back then it was the first exposure most kids got to using a computer for work at all. Even if some of the content isn’t useful for most kids, it still challenges kids to learn some basic stuff they might not otherwise. I do think it’s a shame that it’s required even if you already know how to do everything the course teaches, but that could be said about most classes. Everyone needs to know basic computing shit, forcing people to learn Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and some other random apps is a fine way to do that, and those apps aren’t going anywhere in our lifetime, nor have they changed in a way that invalidates anything taught 20 years ago. I work with people who use a computer full time for their job and it’s obvious they didn’t take a basic course when they were in school 20-30 years ago, or any time since. I have nephews that are 11-15, haven’t taken anything like that yet and they are totally inept with even basic shit, because it wasn’t taught yet and most people don’t just learn without instruction.
Your last point about usefulness to a very limited set of jobs is silly considering how much actual useless to 99% of jobs shit they teach in the core curriculum. If we didn’t throw all this mostly useless shit at the whole of young society, some future great scientist, artist, mathematician, etc. would rot in ignorance, at least that’s the theory. Hard to say if the American education system is working at all though.
It’s worse than that: we’re a small subset of the only generations that know how computers work. The vast majority of my peers would balk at using a command line, much less anything deeper.
I say generations because it’s obviously not limited to one, but, it sure as fuck isn’t many.
Yeah, the era of the ‘genius computer wiz kid’ had a small percentage of people working significantly with computers, but they were very obvious. You either knew your way around the computer very well and used it heavily, or just didn’t use a computer if you could help it.
I remember growing up the other teens would hate being forced to use a computer to type up an assignment, and would ask “can’t I just hand write it?”. We are talking about a percent or two, even among the age group, that would seriously use computers.
Now every kid uses “computers” constantly, but their level of understanding is about the same as the folks that formerly just wouldn’t bother trying back when the computers demanded you fiddle with TSRs, config.sys, autexec.bat, jumpers, dip switches to get things just right, and just right from application to application (this application demands XMS, this other demands EMS). For most kids of the era, maybe they’d use a computer with a word processing application on it, and otherwise they would play with a game console, which was far less finicky.
Between computers and navigating the stupid interface of VCRs of the time, you had TV shows pick up on the whiz kid as a meme (Wesley Crusher in TNG, Lucas Wolenczak in SeaQuest, so many sitcoms of the time would have one…). However they weren’t the prolific folks. Most kids of the time didn’t have time for computers (which also commonly showed up in the sitcoms, the cool jock would have the nerd whiz kid pull some stuff for him, because he sure couldn’t be bothered to deal with computers).
Kids don’t even understand file structures because modern OSs obfuscate that stuff.
Kids aren’t well organized and file structures take time and practice to understand. No idea why anyone would assume a 10 year old who has been using a computer for maybe two or three years would be as experienced as a 30 year old who’d been doing the work for over 20.
Also, no shortage of Millennials who don’t know how computers work. I deal with them every day.
That’s my biggest gripe to be honest with modern OSs. My files in my folders are organized like I organize my house. I live in and around that. I hate the idea of a “Downloads” and other stuff with “automatically in the cloud backup for this app”. Give me a file to save you stupid app.
Yeah ya stupid app!
tell em!
Android has taken away a lot of the manual usage shit when it comes to doing what you want of it on behalf of security protections. Well fuck you, if I want a program to have certain access to things I should be allowed to do it, whether you like it or not. My N20U still can’t have a full and proper root.
A colleague was trying to share a 365 file with me last week. I didn’t have permission to open it. I was begging them to just save a “physical” copy to disk and email it to me. I hate the cloud.
I don’t mind that they simplify it. It makes it easier for more users. Its the fact that even advanced users can’t access it. Not a problem with a perfect app on a perfect operating system with perfect interoperability. None of those exist.
Other than iOS what computer OS hides file structures?
Android is atrocious with this. Windows can be pretty annoying as well, saving things but you have no idea where it is.
Honestly, I find the most frustrating part about file management on android is how terrible the AOSP file manager and most other files managers are. They simply do not make sense. For some reason, someone thought it would be a good idea to make the big button called “pictures” show you images regardless of where they are located instead of being a shortcut to the “pictures” directory.
Other than dumping files into documents and apps, windows is very open.
Android isn’t a PC OS.
It’s sad that they keep trying to make PCs more like phones. I want phones to be more like PCs.
I agree 100%. It’s a bleak future.
Nobody said PC, Android is a computer operating system.
Smartphones are computers that occasionally make phone calls.
I said PC
No, you edited your post around 19 hours later to add “PC”. Honesty is not your strong point is it?
Yup I did change it. If I had kept it as “computer” that’s what you would have cried about. Even though it’s obvious computer means PC.
When people talk about smartphones they either call it that, or they say android/iOS
What’s a computer?
Kids? Try being a manager trying to hire for entry level data work.
I got maybe one out of five people who even knew how to do basic things like opening windows explorer and navigating through folders. And from that slim margin, finding someone who actually knows how to use software like excel or outlook or word, it makes me want to reword the listing to say that we need people with 5 five years experience. For entry level.
I have become that which we hate. I am demanding experience for entry level work, simply because the entry-level work pool has zero knowledge how things work. You have spent all your time browsing and none of your time challenging yourselves to install software yourself, to copy and move files, or tried even opening your “settings” panel to adjust things. When I started working a lifetime ago, I took some free lessons in learning how to navigate excel and other popular programs. Using that TINY bit of training, I went on to make formulas and automated several of the systems at my first job. I went from counting screws in the warehouse to an eventual VP position.
You can get much, much further ahead of the curve if you actually try to learn a little more about the things you use every day, and you will grow your opportunities more than you can imagine.
Well I’m your man! Been using Windows since I stopped using DOS. I meet every requirement you’ve listed here for the job you’ve described and then some. And not one of your peers will give me a call back. Not one.
If nothing else, gimme some pointers about how to make it thru your ATS. If i can get human eyes I can get hired. Problem is getting that far.
And pay is 39k.
Amen. Been on the hunt for 3 years, had one call back. It’s brutal.
“Get off my lawn kids. And god forbid we train people.”
The common man won’t go out of their way to learn a software they don’t even know they will use. Why is it somehow worst for young people?
The personal computer as we grew up with is long gone, but somehow, companies and hiring managers expect everyone to be like it is still the case.
And let’s be real, the vast majority of people don’t know how to use excel even if they work with it every day. For them, it’s a database with a UI and a chart module.
So yeah, ask for 5 years experience for an entry level data entry position, that’ll fix it for you.
For them, it’s a database with a UI and a chart module.
And I’m saying if you’ve never touched a file or folder system and all your experience online is using apps on your phone, DO NOT APPLY TO A DATA ENTRY JOB. Seriously, understand that if I have to teach you how to open windows explorer or how to copy and paste data, I am wasting my time and yours, you need to get a little more life experience or choose an entry level job that requires hands-on work.
As someone in the generation mentioned in the OP meme I can confirm, most people in my generation don’t know how to use Excel either, didn’t know it when we were younger and that is mostly because it is largely used in professional settings for a narrow range of jobs for its actual purpose and everyone else in a slightly wider range of jobs would be better off using a web app with an actual database.
My last job still had an access app for generating task lists
I’ve met software developers who didn’t know how to use Excel properly (in the sense of not even knowing they could use formulas).
I think that’s very much for the reason you state: they “won’t go out of their way to learn a software they don’t even know they will use”.
It’s not just a “common man” thing, it’s an everybody thing - there’s just too much stuff and not enough time to learn it all, so even software developers might never find themselves in a situation were they have to understand Excel enough to know such simple things as how to use functions in the cells, how to use references to other cells or how to make some references be relative to a cell’s position and other absolute.
Mind you, they’ll probably learn it way faster than “common” people simply because so much of its advanced usage follows “programmer logic”, but that still requires them to be forced to actually use it long enough and often enough that they put the effort into learning it.
I am demanding experience for entry level work, simply because the entry-level work pool has zero knowledge how things work.
And they don’t need to, that’s not what entry level means.
If a skill isn’t needed in day to day life anymore and is needed for the job you’re putting out, it’s no longer a common knowledge skill.
When the talent pool changes, so should expectations.
I’m glad that many kids are into PC gaming, at least. That’s still a decent vector into computer proficiency and a little hardware knowledge.
I made sure our kids got introduced to PC gaming. It sort of worked, they are more adept with windows then thier peers, but 0/3 have used thier shell accounts. They were into the persistent Minecraft server for a minute, but barely learned any console commands.
I’m not sure how many kids will be into PC gaming when a low end Nvidia gpu is currently $550. I know that everything comes pre overclocked, and the 4070s still a good card even though it’s got a low and die in it it’s just depressing in the principle of it.
Maybe things like the steam deck will push kids into Linux since the mid-range gaming desktop is like two grand now.
I built a decent rig at the time 2 years ago for a 10 year old for less than 600€. Sure, some parts were used and it’s obviously no monster but he’s still using it daily. He’s learning how to upgrade it every time I have money for it, too.
You don’t have to buy all new Nvidia GPUs for $550 a piece to play games, ya know?
Yeah my first gaming pc was like…a crappy HP desktop with an Nvidia 6600 that I plugged in. Worked great for Age of Mythology lol
When I was six years old, my dad brought a computer home from work. It had Windows 3.1 on it. I had to learn how to use the DOS command prompt in order to play my favorite game, Q-bert. When I was a teenager, a new computer of middling quality could run north of $3000 from the Best Buy. But my friends introduced me to a catalog where I could buy the parts to assemble one from scratch. They let me borrow their copy of Windows 95 to install. Then we all had to learn how to use dial-up in order to connect to the internet, or how to build out a LAN network to play games together in person. We took classes in touch-typing at school, using the computer lab. I went to computer camp during the summer. I went to college and took more advanced classes on programing.
I have spent tens of thousands of hours learning to use the computer, practically from the inception of the PC to the modern day.
Now my friends have kids, and I talk about how they use the computer. Everything is out-of-the-box. Installing something is as simply as clicking an icon. You can buy a mini-computer off the shelf for under $200 and it runs better than anything I could have built thirty years ago. Periodically, they will come to me with a more advanced computer program, which has to do with a very particular OS configuration or some weird networking bug that only someone with 10+ years of experience would think to look for. I typically find the answer online, because I don’t remember it off the top of my head. I teach the kid and the kid learns, and then the kid knows as much as I do on that particular subject.
In twenty years, I’m sure they’ll know more than me, just because I’ll be retired and they’ll be in the thick of it.
Also, please nobody ask me how a car works. That was something my parents’ generation learned. I’m clueless.
Since you mentioned cars, here is a theory my coworker told me that I think makes a lot of sense.
Our parents were the last generation to learn about cars because back then you needed to know how a car worked in order to own one. Cars are too simple now and you couldn’t fix one even if you wanted to since they are so locked-down.
We are the last generation to learn how computers work since we needed to know how a computer worked in order to use it. Now computers are too simple to use and you couldn’t fix one even if you wanted to since they are so locked-down.
Obviously not saying nobody today knows how cars or computers work, but it is a lot less common. Anybody who learns about cars or computers today do it because of personal interest, not because of necessity.
Cars are too simple now and you couldn’t fix one even if you wanted to since they are so locked-down.
Yes, same thing between computing hardware (I’m not gonna say computers, because for a lot of people nowadays, their only device is their smartphone) and cars. It used to be that things were more complicated to use, but easier to repair, so a large percentage of users could also repair their things.
Nowadays, you don’t even need to know how to check your oil level because the car will tell you if it’s low. You might not even have a dipstick. And with service intervals being 25000km and more, how much are you REALLY saving by doing your own oil change and stuff?
Decided on a whim to fix up an old car from the 80s. I was able to tear it down to the frame and reassemble it with not much more than a set of imperial wrenches. That’s a bit of an oversimplification but not much. And while there was a lot that could go wrong there was nothing that was a black box where you could get to a point where if something was wrong you would throw up your hands and say, “Oh, well. Guess this is garbage now!” Different time, I guess.
Yup, now you spend several hundred on a Chinese clone of whatever factory diagnostics tool allows you to code modules and such. And there are still probably things you can’t touch.
Cars are too simple now and you couldn’t fix one even if you wanted to since they are so locked-down.
I mean, I’d argue they’re too complex. But I agree, you need so many specialized widgets (many that vary by brand and model) that its impractical to do more than change the oil.
I was looking at a Model A on display at a dealership when I went car shopping recently. They had the engine open, and I was looking at the thing thinking “If you sent me this in a box as a ‘Build your own car’ kit, I’m pretty sure I could do it”.
Sorry I meant simple to use. Repair and maintenance is very complex. You often can not even do some maintenance since you need specialized tools or software that only mechanics have access to.
Local Area Network Network.
Sorry I couldn’t resist.
I’m going to interpret that last “network” as that extra f-ing 50 ohm bnc terminator that you’re pretty sure you don’t need, until you’re about to learn something about coax impedence matching.
RAS syndrome
