My thoughts is that it’s a simple situation really. If they’re harassing or assaulting people, the women will call the cops or something, simple situation and get the guy arrested. If he’s not doing anything, it’s nothing harmful. Apparently that’s not a solid enough answer. What should I have said?
Is there no one in the replies here who thinks women have a legitimate discomfort, or unsafe feeling, having men around in a toilet space, even if the men aren’t actively being harmful?
No women here who had difficult upbringings with men? No men whose daughter or sister or female friend feels uncomfortable letting certain barriers down around strange men?
Of course there is an important discussion about how bathroom culture changes as society’s acceptance of trans people changes.
But, OP, I think what you would do best beyond what you said, is to acknowledge that some women have a legitimate concern, even if there’s not an easy answer. Once you have that point of agreement - once the other person can see you care about the concern they’re coming from - you have a foundation for discussing a real problem and/or solution.
Otherwise you’re just buttimg heads to win, and asking an internet echo chamber to adjudicate.
So quick question: You are completely fine with a trans woman using the women’s rest room right?
This is not even a good question to argue with, if anyone in the restroom is being a creep it’s not ok and that’s that.
ask them what happens when a guy walks into a women’s restroom and says they’re a trans-man but is lying and isn’t actually trans?
Whatever you answer to a question like that is going to be attacked. The best way is not to answer, but reply with a different question, for instance “what are you afraid of?”
You’ve said your opinion. The asker asked. They got their answer. End of story.
You made a mistake.
You engaged with someone that wasn’t asking in good faith. The idea itself is so stupid that snagging engaging with it isn’t worth the time and effort.
The only useful response to that question is “are you really that stupid, or do you think I am?”
I’d say the best answer to this conservative is that it’s like open carrying a handgun. Just because someone is carrying a handgun doesn’t make them the bad guy, so you leave them alone.
But if they draw that weapon and threaten someone, you call the cops.
…or another good guy with a gun?
In my opinion, what restroom to use depends on what you have between your legs. “Gentlemen” for penis. “Ladies” for vagina.
Great, how are you checking and enforcing this
Is there a magical barrier that keeps men who don’t say they’re trans from entering women’s bathrooms?
deleted by creator
A fictitious rapist can only enter women’s bathrooms for raping purposes if they loudly declare that they are trans.
Oh I see, it’s like bankruptcy.
Unexpected [email protected]
“See I’m trans. You have to let me in here to rape people.”
The social contract, and the knowledge that it isn’t acceptable and any women inside would likely scream and the man would be perceived as an attempted rapist and would face consequences.
None of those things prevented rapists from entering bathrooms before.
So, no. I don’t think a rapist cares much if they’re perceived as a rapist. And a lot of (maybe most?) rapists know that they probably won’t be convicted even if caught.
In my experience what happens is you look at each other confusedly for a moment, wondering who is in the wrong restroom. Then you realise there are no urinals so it’s probably the women’s restroom. Then the man leaves a bit embarrassed. Source: Happened to me at least twice (once the signs were really unclear).
The social contract
and the knowledge that it isn’t acceptable
Rapists, well known followers of social contract who only do things that are acceptable…
It’s not concerning at all that this didn’t seem immensely silly and wrong when you typed it…
and any women inside would likely scream
Because if a bathroom allows trans women, women will then be unable to scream while facing an attempted rape?
the man would be perceived as an attempted rapist and would face consequences.
Are you advocating that any man who even accidentally enters a woman’s restroom startling a woman be declared an attempted rapists?
Otherwise, they will be considered an attempted rapist whether trans and allowed in the bathroom or not…when they start doing the attempted rape…
It’s quite interesting to see them make this argument while also claiming that gun control laws can’t possibly work because criminals won’t abide by them.
I guess we need to allow everyone to use any washroom because we need a good man in the women’s washroom to be around to save the women from a bad man in the women’s washroom
Careful, conservatives have historically been against desegregating spaces.
Not if it means white men can go wherever they want!
Yeah, this is probably the right way to go. There’s actually no bathroom police, for most people. It’s an issue in the first place because when someone is trans people will deputise themselves just to harass them.
Nothing.
Nothing is good enough. Gendered bathrooms are about repression. That’s why they are so mad about non-gendered toilets that are popping up.
So all restrooms should be gender free?
Yeah. All private ones are already.
I actually prefer men and women separate restrooms because using the urinals is faster than going in to stalls, which reduces the wait time a bit. Then again, if you have two non gendered restrooms, you’ll get double throughput. Also, it would take a while to get adjusted to seeing both genders in the same restrooms, maybe I’m overthinking it, I’ve heard a university near me has non gendered restrooms only and the students are still adjusting to it.
Apologies if I’m rambling.
I mean, you could have urinals in one room and then gender-neutral toilets in another room. Urinals and gender neutral toilets are not mutually exclusive I think.
I’m trans and the only reason I stopped using urinals is because it freaked the men out too much lol
They’re so convenient! You don’t have to touch them! And it feels like my bladder empties more completely when standing idk
Gender! 👏 Neutral! 👏 Urinals! 👏
Nah you are good.
The thing about this is that men are provided more space for essentials in the workplace, and making men stand to piss means less physically abled people have more trouble operating in that workplace.
So outside the gender ick issues there’s equality reasons that gender neutral toilets are a good thing.
Meh, urinals are pretty gross and you save pretty marginal amounts of time over quickly sitting down at a toilet
a lot of queer spaces are converting regular bathrooms to gender neutral bathrooms and the signs often say “with urinals”… who cares if there’s a woman using the bathroom while you’re using the urinal?
Yes. A room with a bunch of stalls and sinks.
European type stalls that is, floor to ceiling, real doors.
I don’t have gendered restrooms in my house and people seem to navigate those just fine. I feel like it would work for public restrooms too.
When I try to recall the few non-gendered public bathrooms I’ve been in, they all had private stalls with real doors. It was nice. I’d be happy if all public bathrooms were like that.
I’ve only been in a couple non-gendered communal bathrooms and it was a little odd, but only because I wasn’t used to it. The actual mechanics of it were basically the same as a normal bathroom. Go into a stall and do your business then come out and wash your mitts.
I don’t have a problem with it being the standard. I guess I wouldn’t think it would be a good idea for high schoolers because they’re always in heat.
High schoolers have sex in gendered bathrooms to though
Thats the thing right. You dont care whos shitting in the stall next to you. You’re busy shitting.
This is (should be) true for any public bathrooms, no matter the sign on the door.
Yes.
It would be cheaper to build actual walls in restrooms than to double their size systematically
This has always confused me for years since this “debate” became part of public dialog.
Why don’t we just have all non-gender bathrooms? A friend of mine used to live in an apartment building where the common area had 4 non-gendered bathrooms.
Each had a fold-out changing table, a single toilet, and a sink, so everybody was accommodated. Men, women, non-binary, trans folks, a parent with their baby or young child, and disabled people because the door was wide enough for a wheelchair and the toilets had support bars next to them.
Fully inclusive to everybody, and nicer than the typical restrooms because they were totally private.
I wish all bathrooms were like this. It would be so much easier for me as well as so many other people.
I know right! It feels like one of those rare true win-win scenarios where all parties involved are better off by the change.
Gendered bathrooms are about repression.
Oh Jesus Christ fuck me. “Help! Help! I’m being oppressed!”
We’re in the middle of making a sensible culture shift. That’s all. I’m 53 and non-gendered toilets have been a thing forever, it just makes sense to make them more common. Some people don’t like that and some people have never been on an airplane.
And some people scream “oppression” at the drop of a hat, making their screams seem far less serious. (Same goes for “racism!”.)
Gendered bathrooms where a godsend for women.
There was a time women couldn’t travel far from their home bathroom. it was called the lavatory leash.
The current problem is bigots and “communal” toilets (in that order), not gendered toilets.
Explain the scare quotes.
Explain why you’re scared of quotes
Illiterate cunt
Why are conservatives so worried about hypothetical scenarios involving gendering re: restrooms?
It’s come up exactly zero times ever in my entire lifespan, and I’m in my mid 40s now and have been in hundreds, if not thousands, of public restrooms.
I am a straight guy and I have used a woman’s restroom.
But only in the context that it was a single restroom and the men’s was occupied. I just unilaterally executed my male privilege and declared that the woman’s restroom was unisex for the time period that I needed it.
There was nobody else in the room and if there had been first the door would have been locked or I would have been absolutely mortified.
The amount of times I as a straight cis man have had to go in the women’s room for a changing table for my child is unacceptable
This was super common in college dorms as well. The etiquette was that if your hookup or friend was using the bathroom on your floor you were supposed to stand outside and let people know about it. You know, informed consent and all. Absolutely zero people ever gave a shit.
The entire fear kind of makes me assume that all conservatives are just opportunistic rapists who are kept in check my the thinnest veneer of social order.
Are single-sex dorms a thing over there? Ours were always mixed with unisex bathrooms - stalls for everyone.
They tended to be segregated by floor at that time. So you’d have a men’s or women’s room on every other floor. There were also still a few women’s only dorms, but my experience with those was basically the same. Nobody is leaving the building just to take a piss.
I have actually used a restroom many times when someone of the “wrong” gender was cleaning it. It turns out that person did not try to get an angle to scope out my junk, or molest me or whatever these people believe is going to happen. If someone did that, I would pretty much react exactly the same regardless of their gender. I’d be like “bro what the fuck no free previews.”
Literally the only times I have EVER seen it was when I was at concert and a woman came in and exclaimed that the line was too long for the women’s. I have never once seen a man go into a womens room
I have seen it in a few instances where the baby changing facilities were only in the women’s bathroom, and a father needed to access them. I wish that bathroom discourse could involve structural inequities like this, but the bigots are overly concerned about what is in people’s pants
What exactly do they think goes on in these bathrooms anyway?
Its an ancient argument and your answer is correct.
There is no cock check at restroom doors anyone can enter.
Wish there was.
Can’t tell you how many times I’ve went through the embarassment of realizing I left mine at home halfway through a piss.
Reminder that this is not a thing that has ever actually happened.
…Or reported, rather (I’m not American).
That’s a false dichotomy. Perverts of any gender and inclination can do harmful stuff anywhere. In an idealistic world, a bathroom shouldn’t have to be gendered, because all that you’re doing is relieving yourself - I mean, look at your own homes first. Putting the gender-neutral stuff aside, this isn’t about trans-women, this is about men who are perverts. Even if things such as cross-dressing, gender-changing surgeries or trans-women were non-existent/erased in a hypothetical world, these perverts will find other ways to violate or harass women.
and what is stopping a cis male from doing the same?
Irrelevant but: I, um, did this once. We were at a fancy art gallery. I somehow followed what I thought was a mixed group into what I thought was a general bathroom. I remember thinking what a novel concept to mix bathrooms like this!
It was only afterwards that I realised that, no, this was not a mixed bathroom. No one said anything, but I cringe at myself and at how uncomfortable I must have made people feel.
That is the scenario…
What’s to stop him just walking in anyway?
Don’t live in the US, but in Sweden almost all WCs are gender neutral.
But the scenario is a cis gender male, walking in to a bathroom where he doesn’t belong. And you ask what is stopping him, well in the world where someone is asking you what gender you are, to allow you to go the bathroom; I guess that will be stopping you.
It’s a made up scenario
