The whispering is all in her head and says she sucks
9/10 applicants who submit their resume as a PDF for our openings, we can’t view.
Can’t, or won’t?
Or don’t know how to.
If you can’t figure out how to open a PDF, I really don’t want to work for you.
If you can’t open 90% of pdfs sent from different sources then you’re the problem
I also wonder what the fuck they’re even looking at the site with. Any modern version of Windows can open PDF’s without needing to install additional software. If they’re using Mac’s I’m not sure, but given that Office similarly would need to be installed to open a Word doc I’m pretty sure they could also install a PDF reader at that point …
Mac also opens PDFs natively
I don’t want to work somewhere if they can’t even open a PDF. The fuck kind of Windows 3.1 machines are they using.
I work for a small/med business MSP. You have no idea
See, that’s okay though. The MSP who can’t read PDFs being filtered out is kinda okay. Been there, ain’t going back.
MSP== managed service provider. Aka we’re the it team for multiple small businesses.
Many of our clients have stuff that was out of warranty in the 1900s.
Did you know there was a 32bit version of Windows 10? Cause I didn’t until one clients win xp machine finally died and the program they use can’t run on 64bit os’s. Lucky for the client that the guy who wrote the program was still willing to do some contract work to get us the installer and instructions. He’d been retired for about twenty years.
An MSP is an IT company that supports several other companies. They’re saying they have users who don’t know how to open PDFs all the time in multiple industries.
And I wish that was the worst.
Just last week, we had a call about missing emails to an accounts payable account.
Emails weren’t missing. They needed to scroll down in outlook to the shared mailbox folder.
There were 1400+ unread emails.
They hadn’t noticed for a month.
Even that wouldn’t be an excuse: https://winworldpc.com/product/acrobat-reader/3x
I definitely don’t take advice from someone who leads with this
I am the human embodiment of a perfectly poured shot of espresso. Smooth. Satisfying. Energizing.
This is why I am able to exceed expectations and tap into superhuman qualities that transform the lives and careers of job seekers throughout the known galaxy. How?
Actual psychopath
Cool, everyone who has submitted their resume in only PDF format dodged a bullet.
If your organization is such a clusterfuck that you can’t figure out how to open a PDF, then I’m going to consider that a bullet dodged.
Literally every single browser can open a PDF.
Is she admitting that their organization only uses discontinued, insecure Internet Explorer to use the internet? Is she also opening word files in Microsoft word 2005?
I recently found an ad requiring knowledge of win2000/XP
I met a company that still has a machine in their production line, that uses 5.25" floppy discs and an amber monochrome display. “Why?” I hear you ask. Because it still works, it isn’t networked, and the floppies next to it are the only ones it’ll ever interact with.
The biggest problem with these dinosaurs is when they stop working. Sourcing parts is getting more difficult.
If you think about it though, it is actually easier to find replacement parts for 70s-90s systems because there is now a small industry around it as well as collectors and there was a differrnt culture around it.
Replacing things from 2000s-2010s systems is the bigger issues. They were all taken over by giant corpos with all repair parts, manuals, and software restricted and hidden in the name of “profit” and “protecting corporate IP” and now it is not profitable enough for them to spend resources keeping stock of old parts or driver installers, so into the trash they go, never to be able to be seen again, and reproducing them also is note challenging with increasing system complexity.
The difference is that you can use new parts in computers from 2010s. You can also replace them easily without much difficulty, as the standards haven’t really changed that much.
But computers from the 80s and 90s are not compatible with modern platforms. Standards have changed, and new hardware thar uses standards like 32-bit PCI, ISA, MCA (for expansion cards), IDE are no longer manufactured. Even the CPU architecture had big changes between early x86 CPUs.
Depending on the job itself, this actually makes sense for legacy support. My job requires “passable experience with Windows 98SE, XP, and 2000”, but the network-facing computers are all 10 and 11.
Military and medical too.
It was for an electronics rework technician role, though. Outside of a wave/reflow oven’s interface, (which should have its own GUI) it didn’t really make sense.
Nah she’s talking about the ATS systems that filter through all the applicants’ resumes looking for the ones with the highest amount of matching keywords so they can get the number of applicants down to a more reasonable number to interview.
They don’t care if their bots don’t work for your PDF resume because they get so many applicants it doesn’t matter.
I’m surprised this isn’t common knowledge for jobseekers.
It is common knowledge.
Bots can scrape PDFs.
I had about 50 applications of proof where bots scraped the information from my PDF and auto-filled it into the next forms which are again simply re-typing in all of the information from your resume again (which most medium or large companies use anyway which makes the entire point moot). They can scrape PDFs unless you hand-write your resume with bad handwriting so the OCR can’t pick it up.
Unless they got their ATS system from aliexpress, it can scrape PDFs.
Our front desk person, on the computer all day, barely understands how tabs work.
It’s scary.
gen z or boomer?
Boomer.
As a gen z will echo that I’ve also seen some tech illiteracy from people my age as well.
I don’t like dishing on generational rants, but OMG the mobile device generation is every bit as lost as Boomers are when it comes to the actual functioning of their device or using a PC as an actual work device.
My kids have had a PC since they were four, they’re teens now and they still don’t get a lot of it, but when their friends come over they are absolutely clueless. Use an Xbox or Playstation? IPad? Sure! No problem! Anything beyond that they just give up.
Technology needs to be actively taught and actively learned! If their school isn’t teaching it, maybe try subscribing to some online tech literacy courses?
It should be part of elementary/highschool, like it was for me and most gen Y.
I suffered through word editing, excel, ppt, email setup, etc. on 10 year old machines, and it gave the foundations for my studies and life later.
It seems to be a per-school kind of thing. I am late millennial/early Gen Z, and my school had computer classes where we learned how to use Windows and Microsoft office, how to touch type, the meaning of computer terminology, and what the functionalities are of basic computer parts (eg, “CPU is the brain of the computer”). And later on we started learning how to use Photoshop and Illustrator.
I’m always surprised when I hear that other people don’t have that sort of in depth tech learning in their schools, and worse so, that some people don’t even have computer class. It just always felt like what we learned in computer class was an essential skill
That is absolutely an answer, but getting teens to take more classes after being done with school…? Good luck. The kids are issued chromebooks, that’s as much tech as they get.
I had my eldest help putting together her PC after she wanted to upgrade parts for her birthday. That’s promising, I think?
I feel like I’m about as computer savvy as most gen z. Born in 91, but we was poor, so it was the family dell (that I wasn’t allowed to do much with*) until 2008, got my first laptop in 2009**, it broke almost immediately because poor and cheap, and then got my first smart phone (T-Mobile G1) in 2010, and basically didn’t touch a laptop again until I started school 2020. I basically started over from scratch at that point, but now I run fedora full time and made myself learn some basic stuff, but I would consider myself pretty tech illiterate.
*Because my brother was caught looking at porn, so computer time was severely cut back. Then I was caught sending sexy messages to someone. And then the final nail in the coffin was when I tried to dual boot it with some Linux distro, I don’t remember, borked it, and we had to wipe the hard drive
**Technically I had a netbook before this, in like 07/08, that I used Wubi to install Ubuntu on, and I loved that. But never got more than browser level into it.
Coding-wise I’d hazard that younger generations are on-par or better than my generation. But “jack of all trades” is probably more our wheelhouse.
Nope. We shed a lot of mentor-types in the great layoffs after Y2K, and a generation of nerds ran without any oral history and then taught that to their successors.
What they don’t know they don’t know is not only What best-practice is, but Why best-practice is. And there’s little demonstrated effort to adhere.
I look over installation docs that do Very, VERY bad things, for instance. Build processes with no artifact validation, a toxic cargo chain, builds in prod, and so much more.
I can’t blame the devs, as they didn’t learn better. I blame the c-suites who canned the pricy experienced nerds who were also raising their successors properly.
Now we get to re-learn all that at great pain and hope to regain some of what we had before the next board of defectors guts another carefully-rebuilt culture of adequacy.
I’d argue the Boomers are a fair cut above Gen Z. We Gen X folk are the greatest!
Seriously though, we straddled the digital divide. We went from nothing to having to figure it all out. All when we were young and able to learn quickly. FFS, we couldn’t play a simple video game without understanding drives, IRQs, CLI, all that.
Millennials got it best born just when tech was easy to learn but before it was overly obfuscated
The iPhone really screwed Gen Z.
X and Millennials had to do everything manually that our phones now do automatically for us.
We are the generation that learned how to use wireless mesh networks to text off Nintendo DS’s.
Fuck them for not putting the requirement on the application and wasting everyone’s time though
.txt file it is
Fuck it if they can’t compile my LaTeX then they don’t deserve me.
XML all the way.
Excellent plan if you ever need to apply to 2007.
The X in .docx is for XML. MS Word files have actually just been zipped XML files for years now.
It works. What else is needed?
JSON is compacter.
A nice little trick to get rid of that annoying recruiter spam. Archive your software eng resume in xz format and only competent HMs will read it. /s
.txt file
80 characters wide
With cool ASCII art, like those pirated software readme files. (Looking at you, Razor 1911)
Ah I love putting in sick ASCII art into my notes in R and other programming syntax. My advisors did not appreciate it as much as I did.
Uh I love this idea and will be adopting it.
Right? Like, if I was a hiring manager, I would hire that person on the spot because I know they gots l33t hacking skillz.
With the chiptune music.
Well duh…PDF stands for “portable document file”, not “readable document file”.
You can send it, but no one can read it.You should use readable text files (RTF) instead.
:::slaps knee::: ohhh that’s Rich
Why did you put that behind a scratch-off?
Holy shit, I like calling it that now
🙇🏽♂️🤣🖖🏽
That’s my new name for spoiler tags
Aw, shucks. I’m gonna be famous? 🥹😭✨🤩
Ahhhh! I finally understand what UTF means now!
But how do I get the readable text file to them?
I used to work IT at a school and reports were emailed to parents as PDFs.
We got a complaint from a few parents saying things like, why are the reports PDF? Not everyone has Acrobat Reader, you should be sending these out as Microsoft Word files.
I then had to tell them that unlike Microsoft Word, Acrobat Reader is free to download and install. Anyone can get Acrobat reader or another PDF viewer, but not everyone just has Word on their device nor are they willing to buy it.
I didn’t mention the part about a Word file is easy to just edit.
I’m also going to assume that some of them are using a work laptop where they have Word installed and no admin rights to install a PDF viewer and too lazy to ask IT.
I think I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve needed Acrobat Reader to view a PDF.
I wish I had 0th finger…
Not just this, most (?all?) browsers now support viewing standard PDF documents… So, they shouldn’t even need to installing anything as long as they aren’t using IE…
Edge defaulting to the default pdf viewer is the bane of my existence
I should have added this was back in 2010 or so, I don’t think it was as common to be able to open PDFs in browsers without an addon.
I remember sometime after 2014 I was just able to open PDFs without any additional software.
She is trolling applicants as hard as she can
They want it as a word doc so they can edit it and fuck with it before passing it along.
If a headhunter wants to put forth my resume as if I already contract with them, then they can start paying me.
This isn’t even necessarily for nefarious reasons. I’ve actually had a case where HR was trying to help by putting in the words that they were stupidly required to find in a resume.
Still not a good sign of a properly functioning organization.
They should just learn to edit the pdfs if they’re sent with actual text.
Staffing agencies will do this to make you look more appealing to a client.
They also like this for the off chance you forgot to disable revision history - so they can look at how you edited the document over time.
This would be a great opportunity to insert a bunch of crazy content hidden in the edit. Like passages of the Bible or edits of an erotic book you’ve been writing.
Or to throw it in whatever AI bullshit software they use that doesn’t support PDF
Reminds me of that greentext about an IT guy for a big business who has absolutely no idea what he’s doing and just keeps telling people over the phone to install Adobe Acrobat, about 2 or 3 times a day at most, and 98% of the time it works.
Thank you stranger for understanding my deep internet references when my wife sure doesn’t lol.
Translation: i can’t insert a pdf into whatever bullshit system i’m using to thoughtlessly eliminate people
Most of the time, sentences in a sensible order, we reading easier can make.
Candidate hot tip - if you’re going to learn English from a fictional green puppet, choose Kermit The Frog; he is a native English speaker.
Actually this is good advice. Nowadays nobody reads your CV in the first step. Your CV first gets through an automated system (ATS i think its called). It’s designed to filter out as much as possible.
The problem with PDF is that it’s terrible to parse cuz it’s designed for humans reading it, not machines. The only reliable way to parse it is by converting it to images and then OCR, which is kinda expensive.
So before you send a PDF, you should first try to convert it to txt and see if the content make enough sense. Or just use word to make a CV then export to PDF.
When i was looking for a job, i remember there was a website that would give you tips on your CV and they had an ATS report of your CV. I was so shocked to realize that ATS totally messed up completely to parse the correct info from my latex CV. Like I have a lot of AI/ML experience and it completely missed it and thought i had quality assurance one. And i was applying for AI jobs, no wonder I couldn’t get any interviews. Then I changed it to word and an exported pdf where word wasn’t accepted. I got many more interviews after that.
Was it that the PDF produced by latex was less OCR friendly than the word one, or just that you didn’t submit the PDF at all most of the time?
I guess if you trained a program to OCR PDFs that are produced by word it might get really good at that and less good at PDFs from other sources.
I’m curious if your CV font was computer modern?
I think OCRs are really good nowadays but i think old ATS systems don’t use them or at least use old OCR. If you parse a pdf (without OCR) a word exported pdf preserve the text order much better than a latex ones.
Like i actually tried some websites and python libraries to extract the text from my latex pdf, none of them gave good results like words inside pdf would be out of order.
If i use ocr then I get good coherent text. Which is really important for ATS but I doubt people use OCRs cuz they are kinda expensive or maybe people just use old ATS systems etc
For my most recent application I submitted an Europass resume. It embeds an xml with the pdf, making it machine readable.
Whether or not the ATS can read it, I don’t know.
I have gotten some response in the past that some people see europass as somewhat being lazy which is why I moved to latex. Also my CV got a bit too long with europass (2-3 pages I think).
I’ve never heard that. I want my CV to be a representation of what I can do, not how much time I spent making what I can do look good.
My resume was about 4 pages with Europass, but in the end the cover letter did the heavy lifting.
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Not necessarily, CVs have complicated formatting. Nobody (should) write blocks of text, and you don’t know how many columns the candidate is using. Is the candidate using a specific section to show star based skill rating or word based? So you can still search for individual keywords but if you try copying the whole pdf and paste it in txt (which is what will be forwarded to ATS), it does not make much sense. The structure is too complicated extract where you studied, what did you studied and your grade, what other experiences you have and how long you worked there etc.
Extracting structured data is in its own right a different field of science. There is plenty of recent research on extracting structured data from academic pdfs (I was working on this in a research institute in germany around 2022), even when LLMs are used it can get really complicated to the point that there are specialized LLMs for just that.
But ATS systems are cheap/not high enough priority to even use OCR let alone LLMs so unfortunately the responsibility of making an easily parsable CV comes down to the candidate.
Try this next time you see your CV, copy its text to a txt then think about if you can write a program that can reliably extract your experience, education, interests etc. Its going to be super difficult and even then it won’t generalize to thousands of other CVs.
All those “problems” apply to Word too. Maybe you use tables, maybe you use lists, maybe you use stars, maybe … So there’s no advantage in forcing people to use Word “because the machine can understand it better”. Because that’s a lie.
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Wait, they freely admit that they are incapable of opening 90% of applicants documentation?
I feel like someone should link this person to this thread. Her profile is very easy to find on LinkedIn. I’m sure she’d be shocked by what people are saying, but maybe that’s what she needs.
