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This quote by [email protected] is a good thing to keep in mind. I’m not going to lock it because it genuinely seems to be helping some people. I’m getting reports though, so remember to be excellent to each other please.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
I think the username ends peb not pep
Also you might want to pin your comment to put it at the top
It is at the top for my instance, it doesn’t work on some clients though. Thanks, I’ll fix his name.
Right :) top is variable by user settings, is it pinned and my client just doesn’t respect pins?
That’s what I’ve heard. It probably respects it if you were a sh.itjust.works instance member, but not if you’re not? That’s from people talking about it last time this came up.
Mine is set to sort oldest first and it comes up top for me, though I don’t see any other indication that it’s pinned… It being there is most important though…
I don’t know what to tell you, the mod tools for Lemmy are pretty minor. All I can do as speak as moderator and then it goes to the top for my instance and I think fellow instance members. All bets are off for other users. There’s no way to actually sticky or pin anything to top that I’m aware of other than to speak as moderator as a top comment.
Also just an fyi that my instance and app display it as pinned (slrpnk and connect). Also my default is to sort by top.
Idk what it means, just figured I’d also chime in with some extra data lol
I also see this pinned on my instance.
FYI, I see it pinned as a top comment even from my instance
Super socially awkward and anxious in middle school and high school and was also bullied a ton. Girls would ask me out as a joke, and there’s no good response. If you say yes you’re a dumbass for thinking they’re actually interested in you, if you say no you’re gay and should kill yourself. Combined with being an impressionable teen with incredibly negative self esteem on reddit at a time where something along the lines of all men are rapists was a common sentiment, it really honestly fucked me up. I still am not comfortable with romance and intimacy with women to be honest.
Been dumped, more than twice, immediately after crying in front of a woman. Make of that what you will.
more than twice
So, three times?
At least
Or more. Didn’t want to exaggerate, could only think of 3 lately. Been dumped a lot over 4 decades of dating.
But I’ve finally found the one! Took me that long to find a Filipino. (Guys, drop the American women, seriously, I’d never date one again.)
On a similar note, my ex-girlfriend of two years was ranting about how men do not go to therapy. Then I mentioned to her that I go to therapy, and been going from even before we met… and I will never forget the look on her face, she immediately stopped me mid sentence and told me she didn’t need to hear about it.
She broke up with me the next week and said something like she didn’t want to be with someone that goes to therapy, but one that went.
My sympathies for that rough experience. I hope you have a wider family and friend group that supports you taking care of yourself, and have or will find a better match of romantic partner.
thanks for your kindness, I did not have a support network back then but I do now after moving out to a new city
I doubt that was it, but okay
Absolutely hilarious lack of self-awareness
That’s fucked. If I was dating a guy and he cried in front of me it would make me happy to know that he feels safe being vulnerable around me. I would treasure him forever after that.
Not everyone is a good person.
And my wife is exactly like you. But just sayin’, in my experience, most women are not.
And I get it! No woman craves a weak man. No woman says to herself, “I wish my man was a sobbing pile of goo!”
Women want a strong man, a man that protects her from the slings and arrows of life. We can be those men and still cry. But it ain’t easy.
These are generalisations and just aren’t true.
This is absolutely the way to look at that level of intimacy IMO because that’s how I view it.
The day my dad died, nearly 23 years ago now, was also the day that I knew I’d ask my wife to marry me.
It was a long illness and he was relatively young. We were living together and I had just sucked it up for 18 painful months. Never cried once.
Anyway the day came and I got home and just cracked when we went to bed. I just sobbed in the bed with her. Like a real, deep, deep sobbing.
She just held me and rubbed my hair and I will never, ever forget that.
Anyway about 8 months later I asked her to marry me and we’re married over 20 years now and have a beautiful family together. I love her so much.
Happened to me in high school once. Haven’t really been able to cry openly ever since.
Fuck, I can’t remember the last time I cried openly. I know I HAVE in the last few years, but I can’t remember when or why. Nothing romance related, but I just can’t remember…
You’re fine. I didn’t cry for years, maybe a decade+. Not because of any macho idealism, I simply didn’t.
Feels good when I do drop that oxytocin. That positive feedback led me to crying more often.
LOL, I’m not a whimpering mess, but I can let loose more easily, and that’s a good thing.
I’m lucky I recently upgraded from a biannual sob to a quarterly sob. We’ll see what that does for…
*gestures at everything*
Crazy thing is that I literally just connected that dot in this thread thinking out loud. I never once had the thought that expressing my emotions was unsafe, I just kind of took that feedback onboard and proceeded to not process grief for two decades.
I’ve been scrolling the comments on this post for a while (longer than I should) and just want to say it is one of the most refreshing collective displays of thoughtfulness and empathy I have read online in far too long. Even the back-and-forwards where people disagree on details or semantics are still overwhelmingly positive, insightful, and respectable on all sides. Another comment here used a brilliant term “merciless insincerity”, and personally I’ve been leaning in a dangerously cynical direction lately about its prevalence. Although I know I am old & resilient enough to not let it capsize me I despise when so much lowest-common-denominator thinking hardens my shell and wallpapers a layer of apathy over who I really am (the angry-yet-optimistic teenager from the 80s/90s who screamed into the void about the climate-emergency, the corrosion of democracy by short-term vote-winning & fundraising, and - more relevantly - the toxicifying impact men and women have had on society - at interpersonal, familial, regional, national, and international scales - by regurgitating thoughtless archetypes and flagwaving in lieu of questioning reality from a fearless standpoint of “open-minded but critical, optimistic but sceptical, confident but fallibilistic”. Discussions like these are some of the very few bastions of antidote left for that cynicism and apathy. What blows my mind is that it is apparent a nontrivial proportion of you who are young (well, much younger than me) are introspecting and expressing yourselves about the subject better than I ever could. When I see the flood of toxic (and idiotically childish) nonsense almost everywhere else, discussions like these truly help bolster a dangerously scarce resource called “hope for the future”, and reinforces for me why about 99.9℅ of my “social online reading” time is spent on Lemmy lately. Gandhi said “be the change you wish to see in the world”, and it’s worth considering that what you are all writing here is a good example of you doing exactly that (even if you hadn’t realised or intended). It adds up, when groups of people give each other the chance to be truly unafraid (instead of “playing tough” - which merely broadcasts how truly afraid someone really is).
Wore nail polish at work this week, because I’m a bloke in his 40s who works in an office so fuck it, why not.
Our HR manager - a man in his 50s who fairly recently sent out an email reminding us to talk about our feelings to help our mental health - asked me (half jokingly) if I was “going through some life changes”
I will be when I find a better company to work for.
To be fair, that could have been a genuine attempt to reach out to you. Coming in with painted nails when they’ve never seen you present yourself that way could be interpreted as you going through some life changes, and maybe you want to talk about them given an opportunity?
But also HR is never your friend. If he opens up it’s just a document in a file and if he gets fired it’s ammunition on why he wasn’t performing up to spec based on “life changes.”
Wrong
HR is always your enemy
:(
Nah, he knows me well enough to know what I’m about. And ultimately he doesn’t really care whether I do it or not, but he’s an ex-army man of a certain age, and me wearing nail polish doesn’t jive with his view of what’s ’normal’.
Who talks to hr out of their own volition anyway?
Toby apologists
It’s a small firm, so I know our HR manager pretty well. But yeah.
If you’re so sensitive to comments about your appearance, then maybe you should question why you made the change to begin with?
Sounds like a harmless interaction, and your reaction makes you sound more offended than reasonable. But maybe i’m missing some subtleties lost in translation to text. Perhaps you did it cause you don’t like your job and wanted the reinforcement?
Dude, be kinder and don’t start fights.
The guy insinuated some pretty mean things about his colleague. But thats okay, since his colleague doesn’t read lemmy?
You sound like an asshole. And if you take offense to this comment you probably shouldn’t put your opinion out on the internet because clearly you’re too much of a sensitive snowflake.
To give benefit of the doubt, the polite and kind way to disagree with that person’s assessment of the situation, without shitting on them as a human being, may be found here: https://lemmy.world/comment/14298370
Please don’t call people assholes, please report it and I’ll remove it as soon as I can. Thanks.
No offense taken. Trying to bring some sanity is all. I still haven’t received an honest answer to the question, so i guess it struck a bit to close to home.
I’ll once again give you the benefit of the doubt: the entire first paragraph was me deliberately mirroring you as well as I could in an attempt to make it clear why you’re getting downvoted to hell. Apparently you’re immune.
Did you though? You called me an asshole for asking a pretty non-judgemental, open ended question about the headspace of the person in question. I wrote nothing in there that i wouldn’t say to their face if they said what they said in the comment. You talk to me in a demeaning manor, which i didn’t do.
I don’t know if I want to blame the patriarchy or the toxic masculinity that goes with it, but crap. My ex was so not ok when I cried over the discovery of her affair.
She genuinely thought I was trying to manipulate her. I was “too extremely emotional” over it. We were highschool sweethearts, had a kid, and she always talked about how she was disgusted with her own mother for having an affair. Even to the point where she cut off contact with her mother until they ended that relationship.
“No man goes to bed crying because their wife cheated on them or sends nudes to the same guy 4 years later.”
There were red flags earlier than that. “Why are you crying over a movie?” (I always do at emotional bits). “Man up, no one wants to be with someone expresses sadness.”
What’s worse is that it’s pretty much why I don’t bother going out, or have much motivation to get back into the dating game. The patriarchy and toxic masculinity has ruined being human to me. I don’t want to be friends with people who cover up all their emotions. I don’t want to be friends with guys who are clearly over compensating. Then the girls turn around complain about these men being cruel to them, yet state things like this.
Then you have all the men who have this strange belief that they are owed women, and by behaving like that they get the women they are owed. I won’t take part in that. I will not hurt someone else just to satisfy my desires. If that means I don’t date, I’m much more comfortable being a good person and alone.
I also try to bring it up in conversation, and then people turn around and act like my refusal to participate in patriarchal behavior is anti-social. I had one person point out “technically, you aren’t getting any, even though you want it, making you an incel.” I was so shocked. Its not the fault of women I’m not out getting laid. Its men. It’s the patriarchy. It’s this system set up to isolate me because I have an intense emotional awareness.
My friend, I am so sorry you went through that. I understand it is incredibly hard to get over a betrayal coupled with an attack like that, but I know you can do it. Let yourself breathe and take your time but when you’re ready, there is a whole world of love out there for you.
There are so many people who will cherish the exact part of you that she took for granted. It is easy to go through something like that and come to the conclusion that you should stop feeling. I hope you don’t.
As for people saying you’re an incel… I literally have no advice other than no longer talking to them. There are people in marriages who are “involuntarily celibate”. This could become a rant about the awful nature of even the term “incel” but I think that would be a waste.
I hope you continue to show your strength by refusing to hide your vulnerability.
Thank you. That means a lot. I guess that’s the part I’m most uncomfortable with - why is expressing emotion seen as vulnerability? It’s one of our most effective methods of communication, particularly of empathy.
A lot of people are deathly afraid of self reflection, of thinking about themselves, about their own behavior and how it affects others. Because if you reflect on it, you might come to the conclusion that you have to change something about yourself. And that is hard work, that a lot of people simply don’t want to do (which I think is the reason for many things going wrong in the world). Being able to express emotion is a sign of the ability to self reflect, to be aware of how one feels and being able to communicate that. In a way it makes people aware of their own shortcomings, which is why they want to avoid it.
I think that maybe a different way to look at it would be to ask: why is vulnerability a bad thing? Everyone has emotions. Everyone is impacted and affected by things. To use your situation as an example - your partner betrayed you. You SHOULD be vulnerable to that. The fact that they can’t fathom having that level of vulnerability, to the point that they claimed you were trying to manipulate them, is the problem. That kind of emotional invulnerability is what leads people to do the kinds of things they did.
I truly believe that being vulnerable in front of someone, especially when they have hurt you so much, is strength. Showing someone how much they hurt you is really hard. Find people you can be vulnerable with. They’re out there.
“My ex cheated on me and rubbed my feelings in the dirt. How can I blame men for this?”
You can’t, if you think that women have any agency of their own lmao
The patriarchy is a system, and it’s both men and women who promulgate it
Then it shouldn’t be called “patriarchy”.
that’s not how things work. some prisoners helping the guards doesn’t suddenly put them at the same position in a prison.
I’m glad your ex is an ex. I believe it’s experiences like yours that highlights how sexism goes both ways. My heart goes out to you.
It only goes one way: from people sing gender stereotypes to manipulate others to the victims.
The fact that you can manipulate any gender while being any gender logically follows.
I’m still surprised people use the old definition of “incel” considering that the connotations changed to “radical misogynist” or “terrorist” in the eyes of the mainstream nowadays. Personally I wouldn’t be caught dead using the term to describe anyone who simply doesn’t get laid. In 2013 it would be fine but nowadays it’s almost slanderous.
you know her better obviously but sometimes you’re too close to see some things so here goes my opinion: I think she didn’t genuinely think you were trying to manipulate her.
I think she knew it was the appropriate response and she was the bad person so instead of facing that situation and losing the upper hand she thought she could use toxic masculinity to manipulate you to feel bad about yourself as a way to take the heat off of herself.
“you’re overreacting”, “you’re being too emotional” these are very common tactics that men use on women all the time. it’s just that it has the added toxic masculinity aspect when the roles are reversed.
That… Actually makes more sense and a thought I was trying to avoid. I know she said a lot of things where she said things to avoid feeling like the bad guy. Unfortunately for her, cheating on your marriage doesn’t have a defense.
deleted by creator
did you not read anything before or after that quote? we were already talking about a woman doing it. this is me talking about, in response to their comment about whether it’s about toxic masculinity, that it is done the other way all the time as well, and this way has the added layer of toxic masculinity.
now I haven’t added anything to my original comment but this is what you missed.
Oh, Lemmy may be full of incels… Yikes. Do you all not see it?
Pretty sad comment section, hope y’all get through it.
This sort of situation is how I knew my wife was/is a keeper. When I was pushed to the point where my negative emotions got too much, she was there for me. She didn’t shy away, but stepped in to help and support me.
In many of my previous relationships, showing negative emotions was lethal to their feelings. I could be happy, or stoic, but never upset or depressed.
On a side note, I had a chat with a trans friend once, regarding emotions. When they transitioned, the intensity of their emotions didn’t change much. However, their ability to contain them plummeted. Basically, men and women feel emotions similarly. Men are just a lot more able to bottle them up.
I went through the worst depression of my life around 2017, tried to express these feelings to my gf at the time and explain why our romance was failing or why I spent half the day in bed.
Basically got told “poor you”, everyone has struggles, snap out of it and be a man. That definitely helped, and didn’t push me even deeper into feelings of worthlessness…
I’m doing ok now, but it was the first time I felt comfortable enough with someone to express those emotions, I was at my wits end. The response was eye opening, never again.
Im sorry that happened, but never again what?
Like, “never again open up about a huge important part of my life to”
a) anyone, or b) someone you don’t know too long
Because only a) is healthy. I don’t think trying to mask your depression can work in a serious relationship.
Instead of saying to yourself “never again”, how about “never again with someone who will betray my vulnerability”? Because what happened to you sounds really horrible, but there are people out there who will be with you in your struggles and nurture and build you up in your vulnerable moments.
As a man someone who also struggles with vulnerability, there are ways to test the waters in a relationship (family, friend, partner, etc) when it comes to vulnerability so that you won’t be hurt like that again. I actually watched this video recently and found it really helpful: https://youtu.be/WyKFHd7cSaU
Of course, none of this is easy, but it can be life-changing to open up to someone and feel cared for. I’m glad you’re doing better, and I wish you the best.
I’ve been in a relationship with my partner for 12 years now and I am lucky that I found someone that was supporting of my issues since pretty much day one.
In the last year, after many years of therapy, I was able to finally be totally vulnerable to my partner even if she always was supportive, not holding anything back, and it was liberating and almost addictive for a while.
The feeling is indescribable and one of the best feeling of my life.
A given group of people are not a monolith. While we do share a lot of similarities, we also all have the potential to be a little different from one another.
I hope you get a chance to find someone that will allow you to be open like that again. Sharing those emotions and having someone their to empathetically receive them is one of the most gratifying things as a human.
I guess I’ll share too.
Although I don’t actually cry that often, and will still tend to shut my self off and wallow when I start to feel down; which is something that happens intermittently several times a year where I just feel hopeless, unhappy, lacking purpose, and not really wanting to do life.
So when I’m in these moods my friends have realised the signs, mainly me being hard to reach and absent from gatherings etc. they will all reach out and make me leave the house and have a talk about how I’m feeling, have some hugs, and then just go to roasting each other. This helps massively as isolating makes me worse so being around friends and just being in the moment is a really good antidote for me.
I guess my point is that the men around me are a bit more accepting of mental health issues. It’s not like they’re all hipster kind of mates. I am unusual in that I’m a nerdy software developer that is also very street wise and has mates that are completely the opposite. Most are trades people, a few sell drugs, are handy with their hands etc. basically my friends are chavs, but they’re accepting and not what you would think.
A bit related to this, so many times throughout my life when I’ve mentioned I’d like to be friends with, take up lost contact with or just mention a woman has a currently present woman reacted like “you know she has a boyfriend, right?”, “I don’t think you’re her type” etc.
It makes sense that so many men have very few or no female friends, because they experience exactly that. It’s like many women have decided that all men are incapable of being friendly with women without it being about sex or more than friends. We get scared of trying because it’ll just be misinterpreted as wanting to fuck them.
Oh yeah, gender relations are a mess. The belief of not being able to be friends with genders you’re attracted to is bullshit, and I’m really tired of it. It’s cost me some relationships to the point where I had to make that a rule.
I’m not attracted to everyone, and beyond that, I have a healthy respect for boundaries. Their boundaries and my boundaries.
One note, maybe quit mentioning you’d like to be friends with them and just be friends with them? Mentioning “I’d like to be friends with…” to other people is coded as “Hook me up with…”.
I’ve always had a lot of friends who are women, but the ones who were in my “league” or higher almost all eventually asked why I never hit on them, or blatantly hit on me. It was a weird mix of them being upset I hadn’t like it was a judgement on their attractiveness, and being frustrated because they thought it was an eventuality and were tired of waiting.
But, humans are pattern recognition machines, we don’t even realize we’re doing it most of the time.
Especially for a very attractive woman in her 20s, if a guy is interacting with her, it’s likely because they want sex.
So you can’t fault them for the assumption, but then when they run into a guy that legit is cool just being platonic friends, they tend to pursue a relationship because they see that as a desirable trait. Even just for a FWB thing, you’ve shown that you’re “safe” and it can become a conquest thing as well because they’re not used to the rejection of not being pursued and want the ego boost of changing your mind.
There’s just an absolute shit ton going on, so it’s hard to judge anyone because their life experiences are why they hold their current beliefs.
As a trans woman who came out the other side… well there’s no modest way to put it- pretty damn attractive I’m told, I never understood why women just assume guys are hitting on them until I lived it.
I don’t even do it on purpose. It’s just that the vast, vast majority of the time, guys are trying to hit on me, and my brain has connected the “guy talking to me” neuron and the “guy hitting on me” neuron so tightly that it doesn’t even occur to me that they might not be unless they prove it through extended interactions, usually over years, of never showing any interest.
And yeah, I’ve definitely fallen for people largely because they simply hadn’t shown any signs of being into me. You’re right that there is an immense sense of safety in knowing they’ve never tried to get in my pants. Unfortunately, that also means, 99% of the time, that they’re gonna say no if I ask them out (I generally prefer to make the first move because it feels safer.)For the sake of example and because it’s relevant to the thread, I asked a dude out who’d shown no interest, and it turned out he was actually attracted to me, but wasn’t interested because he’d been heavily abused in a past relationship and he wasn’t ever willing to give it another shot.
And on that subject, having life experience as both a man and a woman really does open your mind to how differently abuse is treated between men and women. I was heavily abused as a kid, both by men and women, and telling the story before I transitioned, people always desperately searched for a reason it was my fault (even though I was a kid at the time it happened) and when they couldn’t find one, spouted lines like “at least you’re stronger for it.”
As a woman, people, not having knowledge that I wasn’t always a woman, immediately recognize how horrible my abuse was, zero attempts to justify it, and hell, even direct me to support groups (albiet I’ve attended said groups before and they’re fucking useless trauma feedback circles in my experience.)Well, that turned into a half irrelevant rant, but it’s nice to have some of that off my chest.
With your last comment there, you’re like 1 step away from “nobody can ever be blamed for their actions because they are all just meat and chemical automatons on a deterministic path”. I mean, we are. But society can’t work that way.
Nope, not even a little bit.
I thought people gave up on “slippery slope” when after gay marriage happened cats didn’t start marrying dogs…
What made you pick up that logical fallacy so long after even the dumbest have given it up?
Did you stick with it the whole time, or are you trying to bring it back now?
You literally said its hard to judge anyone. I said that’s one step away from impossible to judge anyone, and life can’t work that way. Where is the fallacy?
Also, you need therapy.
I’m a guy. I kinda get it, to be honest, “let’s be more than friends” is where my mind goes by default, even if logically I know it would be much more valuable/sustained friendship than relationship.
The best way if found to shut that down in my mind is to remind myself that she may set me up with one of her friends in the future.
Things everyone must learn themselves because patriarchy instills in them the opposite:
- Women are people
- Men are human
-Don’t tag yourself as PantsuInspector and then get mad that people don’t respect your opinion
A classic reddit moment, reading some very heartfelt words on the emotional journey of overcoming the loss of a loved one, you start typing a reply to thank… PantSniffer69
Meanwhile somewhere out in the world a poor lad born in '69 whose parents decided to call him Pant Sniffer is crying as the tiny 'puter people think he’s just a shitposter instead of a loving and caring fella.
I’m so sorry for all those commenters having sad stories and being told to “man up”. That’s very sad
I might be wrong but I have a feeling that it is a very US influenced problem (so now a very English speaking country problem). Maybe I’m wrong, maybe I’m influenced because it is Internet and there’s plenty of Americans and everything is written in English.
Being born in a French speaking culture, I don’t feel that way. My friends don’t, my non French speaking friends don’t as well. Most men of my generation (millennial) that I have met could express emotions without much problems, and women would not react badly to it, but maybe I’m just lucky.
Of course, there’s always some shitty people, some overly manly jerks or non caring women, but I would say that they represent less than 15% of the population I’ve met in my life (data source: My ass).
So, am I wrong ? Am I influenced by Internet ? How is it for German/Spanish/Portuguese/Italian/Japanese/Whatever cultures ?
And if I’m right, well that sucks. How can we help ?
As a Portuguese (that has also lived in a few other countries in Europe) I would say that it’s more that there is a range of emotions that men can express without that being frowned upon were certain things are still frowned upon if you show them openly (mainly around sadness) though for example openly showing tenderness for your partner or children is expected and even approved (unlike certain other cultures we’re men are expect to be distant).
Mind you, in some cultures the limits on expression of emotions or selectivity about which emotions you are expected to express is pretty high for both men and women (for example, the Dutch in general tend to refrain from expressing much emotion to strangers) and in some cases there is even such a strong expectation that you react in certain ways that it leads to people in general faking expressions of emotion (the English upper and upper middle classes are pretty big on showing the “appropriate” reaction independently of feeling it).
I would say (from contact with Americans and consuming some American media as well as having lived in England) that the expectations on what emotions people should be expressing are quite different and in England they’re even very much defined by people’s social class (for example, the “English Gentleman” is entirely a façade - all about what you show, not at all about what you think - and occupies the same place in terms of male behaviour expectations for traditional old-money upper class English men as the bossy slightly-angry assertive go-gotter seems to occupy in the US).
So far I generally have seen a tendency for growing upon grown up men expressing sadness for themselves (though in some countries, not for expressing sadness in empathy to others, such as close family) and have also noticed equivalent expectations on the expression of emotion by women (for example, it seems to me that middle and upper class English women have a massive weight of social expectations on them in terms of what they’re expect to show to others - including the emotions they express - in lots of situations, and a lot of it is about reacting with the “appropriate” emotion in some situations even if they don’t feel it)
I don’t think the stigmatisation of men showing emotions is exclusively Anglophone culture. I live in Ireland and there isn’t really a stigma of men showing emotions because of public awareness campaign about mental health for both men and women. But like you said, I’ve met couple of overly manly men jerks and uncaring women, but they’re the ones not worth your time and in tiny minority.
In any case, some cultures have antiquated machismo mindset which is sporadic across the world.
I dont think it is very US influenced problem.
Yeah nobody has ever accused Spain Italy japan India china Pakistan Afghanistan Iran Iraq Egypt…of behaving similarly, just the commonwealth and the Yankees. You’ve cracked the code.
