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This quote by [email protected] is a good thing to keep in mind. I’m not going to lock it because it genuinely seems to be helping some people. I’m getting reports though, so remember to be excellent to each other please.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
I think the username ends peb not pep
Also you might want to pin your comment to put it at the top
It is at the top for my instance, it doesn’t work on some clients though. Thanks, I’ll fix his name.
Right :) top is variable by user settings, is it pinned and my client just doesn’t respect pins?
That’s what I’ve heard. It probably respects it if you were a sh.itjust.works instance member, but not if you’re not? That’s from people talking about it last time this came up.
Mine is set to sort oldest first and it comes up top for me, though I don’t see any other indication that it’s pinned… It being there is most important though…
I don’t know what to tell you, the mod tools for Lemmy are pretty minor. All I can do as speak as moderator and then it goes to the top for my instance and I think fellow instance members. All bets are off for other users. There’s no way to actually sticky or pin anything to top that I’m aware of other than to speak as moderator as a top comment.
I also see this pinned on my instance.
FYI, I see it pinned as a top comment even from my instance
Also just an fyi that my instance and app display it as pinned (slrpnk and connect). Also my default is to sort by top.
Idk what it means, just figured I’d also chime in with some extra data lol
A bit related to this, so many times throughout my life when I’ve mentioned I’d like to be friends with, take up lost contact with or just mention a woman has a currently present woman reacted like “you know she has a boyfriend, right?”, “I don’t think you’re her type” etc.
It makes sense that so many men have very few or no female friends, because they experience exactly that. It’s like many women have decided that all men are incapable of being friendly with women without it being about sex or more than friends. We get scared of trying because it’ll just be misinterpreted as wanting to fuck them.
I’ve always had a lot of friends who are women, but the ones who were in my “league” or higher almost all eventually asked why I never hit on them, or blatantly hit on me. It was a weird mix of them being upset I hadn’t like it was a judgement on their attractiveness, and being frustrated because they thought it was an eventuality and were tired of waiting.
But, humans are pattern recognition machines, we don’t even realize we’re doing it most of the time.
Especially for a very attractive woman in her 20s, if a guy is interacting with her, it’s likely because they want sex.
So you can’t fault them for the assumption, but then when they run into a guy that legit is cool just being platonic friends, they tend to pursue a relationship because they see that as a desirable trait. Even just for a FWB thing, you’ve shown that you’re “safe” and it can become a conquest thing as well because they’re not used to the rejection of not being pursued and want the ego boost of changing your mind.
There’s just an absolute shit ton going on, so it’s hard to judge anyone because their life experiences are why they hold their current beliefs.
With your last comment there, you’re like 1 step away from “nobody can ever be blamed for their actions because they are all just meat and chemical automatons on a deterministic path”. I mean, we are. But society can’t work that way.
Nope, not even a little bit.
I thought people gave up on “slippery slope” when after gay marriage happened cats didn’t start marrying dogs…
What made you pick up that logical fallacy so long after even the dumbest have given it up?
Did you stick with it the whole time, or are you trying to bring it back now?
You literally said its hard to judge anyone. I said that’s one step away from impossible to judge anyone, and life can’t work that way. Where is the fallacy?
Also, you need therapy.
As a trans woman who came out the other side… well there’s no modest way to put it- pretty damn attractive I’m told, I never understood why women just assume guys are hitting on them until I lived it.
I don’t even do it on purpose. It’s just that the vast, vast majority of the time, guys are trying to hit on me, and my brain has connected the “guy talking to me” neuron and the “guy hitting on me” neuron so tightly that it doesn’t even occur to me that they might not be unless they prove it through extended interactions, usually over years, of never showing any interest.
And yeah, I’ve definitely fallen for people largely because they simply hadn’t shown any signs of being into me. You’re right that there is an immense sense of safety in knowing they’ve never tried to get in my pants. Unfortunately, that also means, 99% of the time, that they’re gonna say no if I ask them out (I generally prefer to make the first move because it feels safer.)For the sake of example and because it’s relevant to the thread, I asked a dude out who’d shown no interest, and it turned out he was actually attracted to me, but wasn’t interested because he’d been heavily abused in a past relationship and he wasn’t ever willing to give it another shot.
And on that subject, having life experience as both a man and a woman really does open your mind to how differently abuse is treated between men and women. I was heavily abused as a kid, both by men and women, and telling the story before I transitioned, people always desperately searched for a reason it was my fault (even though I was a kid at the time it happened) and when they couldn’t find one, spouted lines like “at least you’re stronger for it.”
As a woman, people, not having knowledge that I wasn’t always a woman, immediately recognize how horrible my abuse was, zero attempts to justify it, and hell, even direct me to support groups (albiet I’ve attended said groups before and they’re fucking useless trauma feedback circles in my experience.)Well, that turned into a half irrelevant rant, but it’s nice to have some of that off my chest.
I’m a guy. I kinda get it, to be honest, “let’s be more than friends” is where my mind goes by default, even if logically I know it would be much more valuable/sustained friendship than relationship.
The best way if found to shut that down in my mind is to remind myself that she may set me up with one of her friends in the future.
Oh yeah, gender relations are a mess. The belief of not being able to be friends with genders you’re attracted to is bullshit, and I’m really tired of it. It’s cost me some relationships to the point where I had to make that a rule.
I’m not attracted to everyone, and beyond that, I have a healthy respect for boundaries. Their boundaries and my boundaries.
One note, maybe quit mentioning you’d like to be friends with them and just be friends with them? Mentioning “I’d like to be friends with…” to other people is coded as “Hook me up with…”.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
I prefer “monument to all your sins” but hard to disagree.
Thank you for the warning, kind stranger.
A few years ago I was struggling with body image and was starting to feel worthless and invisible in my marriage. When I tried expressing these feelings to my wife (really just trying to make an emotional connection) her response was curt and to the point: “You don’t have body image issues. I’m the one struggling with my weight.”
And that was it. I’ve never felt more alone in my life.
🫂
Don’t worry bro, you’ll always have us internet homies!
Hey you, your attractive. *Hugs
His hugs can be attractive I guess.
Can I change your mind about using the Calvin template instead of the waste of oxygen template?
Awwww you should’ve left the comment alone.
I love you!
I think I changed your to you’re. I couldn’t unsee it haha
Thx. You legit got a smile out of me.
Dude, you are looking sharp today. Don’t ever think you can’t look good.
Imho the worst are those who crucify the patriarchy at every point, then a man chimes in to criticize calmly the words chosen are inappropriate for the given situation, or outright hurtful, then the radical anti-patriarchy combatants shut down that person as the most vile being they deserve to feel terrible. And that guy ill-adjusts, be it on a personal level of despair or combative misogyny, and the anti-patriarchy combatants continue their cycle, because clearly they were right from the get-go, men are misogynistic and don’t speak about their problems. Rinse and repeat.
Please, don’t be that type of anti-patriarchy fighter. It doesn’t matter that you describe yourself as super leftist progressive, if you behave like crap and reinforcing the worst of stereotypes.
There is no patriarchy, there is an overwhelming majority of misandrists online though.
I mean this is laughably wrong, and says a lot about you.
Wow, that empty argument of yours can be used against you too! Convenient! Zero effort on your end and mine.
I have noticed a pattern in myself, which I suspect could be true for others too. Namely, that I am much more likely to care about someone if the feeling is mutual. On a rational level, I can recognize that this or that person has had a bad time and deserve better, and I want to help them, but if they are hostile or indifferent to me, I kind of stop caring. And vice versa, if I feel that someone cares about me, I will care a lot about them. If this is the case for two people, it can quickly spiral either towards more mutual caring, or more mutual indifference.
Now here’s the tricky part, how do we influence this trajectory? The only way I can think of is to care even if the other person isn’t caring back. Polarizing language can feel good, to assert yourself when you feel hurt, but… is it helpful or detrimental for the bigger picture? It’s so circular and self-reinforcing. So hard to escape.
I get the feeling that many people argue that “well, when they start treating me right, then I will start treating them right, but until then I don’t care”, and sure, I understand that feeling. But the feeling is probably mutual.Same sentiment here. I always try to care a bit more than the other person so that, assuming most people use proportional caring implicitly, the mutual care can increase steadily.
I often see an issue when trying to communicate your point here, (which I agree with and I also agree that that Patriarchy is a problem), there is no good way to name and call out those as you put it “radical anti-patriarchy combatants.”
Very few are willing to name or talk about “the Matriarchy” or “toxic Femininity.” So we either end up trying to use a long string of less impactful words, (like you did), or we just sweep those “radical anti-patriarchy combatants” under the too broad umbrella of Patriarchy and end up hidden from sight.
So the next time you need to call out one of those radical anti-patriarchy combatants, name them for what they are-- a toxic feminist and are adding to the problem of the Matriarchy. Just as you would call out any toxic male as being a problem part of the Patriarchy. Then sit back and watch them come unglued.
Because we desperately need equality for all and we need to support each other as best we can and when we can. To quote the famous Canadian philosopher, Red Green-- “Remember, we’re all in this together.”
“I’m a man. It’s my fault. But i can change. If i have to. I guess.”
Remember: I’m pullin’ for ya, and we’re all in this together.
Keep your stick on the ice.
Kind of describes the issues for many men don’t it.
There are far worse role models.
Boy you got the wrong lesson from red green, son.
Why are your feelings hurt because somebody was mean to the patriarchy? The patriarchy sucks. It doesn’t deserve your sympathy.
Wore nail polish at work this week, because I’m a bloke in his 40s who works in an office so fuck it, why not.
Our HR manager - a man in his 50s who fairly recently sent out an email reminding us to talk about our feelings to help our mental health - asked me (half jokingly) if I was “going through some life changes”
I will be when I find a better company to work for.
If you’re so sensitive to comments about your appearance, then maybe you should question why you made the change to begin with?
Sounds like a harmless interaction, and your reaction makes you sound more offended than reasonable. But maybe i’m missing some subtleties lost in translation to text. Perhaps you did it cause you don’t like your job and wanted the reinforcement?
Dude, be kinder and don’t start fights.
The guy insinuated some pretty mean things about his colleague. But thats okay, since his colleague doesn’t read lemmy?
You sound like an asshole. And if you take offense to this comment you probably shouldn’t put your opinion out on the internet because clearly you’re too much of a sensitive snowflake.
To give benefit of the doubt, the polite and kind way to disagree with that person’s assessment of the situation, without shitting on them as a human being, may be found here: https://lemmy.world/comment/14298370
Please don’t call people assholes, please report it and I’ll remove it as soon as I can. Thanks.
No offense taken. Trying to bring some sanity is all. I still haven’t received an honest answer to the question, so i guess it struck a bit to close to home.
I’ll once again give you the benefit of the doubt: the entire first paragraph was me deliberately mirroring you as well as I could in an attempt to make it clear why you’re getting downvoted to hell. Apparently you’re immune.
Did you though? You called me an asshole for asking a pretty non-judgemental, open ended question about the headspace of the person in question. I wrote nothing in there that i wouldn’t say to their face if they said what they said in the comment. You talk to me in a demeaning manor, which i didn’t do.
To be fair, that could have been a genuine attempt to reach out to you. Coming in with painted nails when they’ve never seen you present yourself that way could be interpreted as you going through some life changes, and maybe you want to talk about them given an opportunity?
Nah, he knows me well enough to know what I’m about. And ultimately he doesn’t really care whether I do it or not, but he’s an ex-army man of a certain age, and me wearing nail polish doesn’t jive with his view of what’s ’normal’.
But also HR is never your friend. If he opens up it’s just a document in a file and if he gets fired it’s ammunition on why he wasn’t performing up to spec based on “life changes.”
Wrong
HR is always your enemy
:(
Who talks to hr out of their own volition anyway?
Toby apologists
It’s a small firm, so I know our HR manager pretty well. But yeah.
the comments aren’t making it to my instance but i peeked over to how they look on slrpnk and just want to say good job all for approaching this with so much respect and decency
certain communities over on .world could never 😜
I’ll add to the trauma dump I suppose
Got married in August 2018, the beginning of the next month my dad died of cancer. Obviously I was mourning him and was in a shitty place, my then wife took that as me not being active enough in our relationship and decided to start cheating on me with multiple guys. Once I found out and called her out on it, and also subsequently kicked her out all of a sudden I was the bad guy. I can’t even imagine the mental gymnastics she was hopping through to think that was justified.
Anyway I’ve moved across the country since then and have met who I believe is my soulmate, and things are amazing with her. Just had to go through sewers to find my green pasture I suppose
Consider yourself lucky you didn’t have kids with her
“Why are men in general so emotionally constipated? omg stop crying like a pussy; we just asked a question!” - the patriarchy, oppressing us all
This has nothing to do with men being in position of power, this has everything to do with people having no empathy. If we lived in a matriarchy and people acted the same way they would still be assholes.
Are people this shitty to women when they express sadness?
Yes
Patriarchy says that men can’t be “soft” because that’s a womanly trait, and women are inferior.
So they where practicing the first part. Do we have a word for that?
No, patriarchy is men having power, it doesn’t define what they can or can’t do otherwise.
By patriarchy, I mean it in the context of feminism, as in the ideology that attempts to rationalize the idea of that men are better than woman, by using things such as religion, bioessentialism, and more. There are many definitions.
So toxic masculinity, not patriarchy.
Toxic masculinity is an effect of the patriarchy. These are the toxic traits that eminate from masculinity as defined by the patriarchy.
But hey at this point we’re arguing about semantics. There are traits that men and women are taught as being bad to do as men, even though some of those traits are actually necessary, or just part of someone’s personality.
It’s ironically self-unaware victim-blaming to use the male-based word “patriarchy” to describe a set of societal norms and expectations that both sexes are equally responsible for creating and perpetuating. Puts the blame entirely on men and takes women completely off the hook.
Pure sexism.
I say the same about calling the movement feminism
If men are equally welcome in it, it’s not feminism anymore, it’s egalitarianism, but every woman I’ve ever seen it suggested to flips their shit while every man I’ve seen it suggested to goes “yeah that makes sense”
Stop using “the patriarchy” as an excuse for vile behaviour. Yes, it exists, but it’s made up of a large group of people behaving badly, and one way to break it is to address the individuals one at a time.
feminism is for everyone. patriarchy is both against and enforced by everyone
When i was a kid it was the opposite… but in my adult years it’s been overwhelmingly women that tried to enforce masculinity on me any time I stepped out of the bounds of masculinity and did something feminine (wear feminine clothes, cry, make a comment getting hit on by men to name a few). I was a closeted trans woman in denial which made it extra annoying whenever it happened. Now that I’m out the women in my life have been extremely supportive so there is that. However whenever I go out in full femme with outfit and make-up I noticed it’s women who stare at me, had one lady look me up and down three times pretty deliberately while standing 4ft away from me. I don’t always see it as malicious (not that i would care), more like they’re curious or maybe even liking fit. But it’s an interesting contrast compared to men who seem to give me almost no mind or attention by comparison. It was something I didn’t expect.
You or @[email protected] in somewhere like the SF Bay Area, California?
Curious cuz this ain’t cool and I dare say my circles ‘round these decently progressive parts would concur
Wait you know people here who have genuine opinions they share and aren’t just being performative?
Yes, and many women are strict enforcers of the patriarchy, too. Boys are raised to deny their feelings by both parents, because both parents were raised that way, too. There’s a focus on hyper masculinity that hurts both men and women, and is perpetuated by both men and women. Society has been leaning away from that, but it’s caused a backlash that’s kinda hurting us right now. And some social media is amplifying it.
We’ll get past it, but it’s going to hurt for a while.
Eh, this is all stuff that was written up in the 70s and 80s, it’s gonna take a while before anyone even attempts to do anything about it.
Yes, it was written up back then. Which is a large reason why many more GenZers were raised without those toxic values, because their GenX parents actually read that shit.
So this upcoming generation are being called woke pussies for being raised with empathy and against the historical gender norms, and that’s causing the normal pendulum of conservative panic to swing society in the other direction right now.
If you’ve watched history happen and really read about it critically, this is all very predictable.
My wife makes way more than me, with the potential to be sole provider in less than 5 years. I told her id love to stay home and take care of the house/kids. She got offended, and said itd probably end our marriage because that wouldnt be masculine.
Shes always been a big proponent for gender equality… i guess she always only ever thought of one gender
lolwut y she so going so 1950s on you
Taking care of the kids is a masculine thing to do! 💪
Man your wife is fucked up. I’d love to give the husband an ejection seat for the rat race
Funny how that works, right? Both my mom and my ex, super feminists, all down with the gays and progressive but were some of the worst people when it came to enforcing my masculinity. My mom is coming around now after putting my foot down pretty sternly more than a few times. But when I was closeted that shit was really fucking hurtful and kept me from expressing myself.
Take precautions. Seriously. Economic abuse is just as if not even more common than physical abuse. And you already know she’s got emotional abuse locked and loaded.
Start wearing a frilly pink apron around the house. Gotta have some fun while you can
But also yeah, good luck with the divorce 😶🌫️
Time to get downvoted for having an opinion, here I go:
In my experience, women were the ones constantly telling me I should be positive, I should smile/laugh more, I should not worry or cry or stuff like that (even lovingly telling me to shush), male friends were MUCH more accepting when it came to my emotional problems (both were equally useless tho).
BUT I don’t blame women nor the patriarchy, I blame toxic positivity, as most of us weren’t taught how to deal with emotions and came from toxic/broken homes so forcing a positive take on everything and shunning anything that could weaken that bubble was (and still is) the norm and that is genderless, assholery is a human thing, not a male vs female thing.Genuine question, how would you wish a good friend/partner would react?
Not the person you replied to, but just listening and allowing the person to express themselves and feel heard goes a long way. Getting it all out to someone and not being bottled up inside your own head can be a huge relief, even if the problem itself remains the same.
The instinctual reaction is to want to offer fixes. However, whatever the hearer thought of in five seconds, the sufferer probably also already thought of, and spent days/months/years attempting to make it work and it just didn’t, and now the listening session gets diverted into kind of an argument where the suffered has to justify they have already put in sufficient effort to the fix the listener is pushing that it’s not worth continuing on that road.
You’ll have to be more specific with your question because… if I’m pointing out a toxic positivity attitude and you tell me you don’t know what a more desirable reaction would be, it concerns me… a lot.
OK, be concerned. Now, please tell me how to be better. I am the first to admit that I suck at inter-personal things.
Let’s say you are hanging out with a good friend, it is late in the evening, and they tell you about some fucked up shit happening to them.
“That sucks, man hang in there,” doesn’t quite cut it, as someone else pointed out, no solution you can up with in five minutes is going to help them, and just awkward silence is awkward to both of you.
What do you do?
I do nothing.
I just sit there and listen to them, curse with them and let them blow as much steam as they need, you’d be surprised but most of the time people already know what to do, all they need is to be allowed to embrace whatever they are feeling at the time, to be heard and some empathy.
If you are afraid of an awkward silence then don’t be, sometimes just sitting in silence with someone can go a long way. Sometimes just little questions about it can help them open and show that you care.Not everyone wants help, not everything has a fix, not everything has to be fixed on the spot, forcing someone will only make them double-down or close themselves and that can get worse because they’ll stop looking for help.
Obviously… this is in general what I used to do, everyone is different so each person requires a different approach,
I have a very different friend group. Yeah people still like to project success and their kids whatever at the moment. But even that’s only my local friends. Many of us love to talk shit about the state of the country/world and try to take care of each other through mental and emotional issues.
It’s funny, I generally prefer to talk to a woman professionally, but I’d rather talk to a man friend about specific emotional problems. Of course I’m lucky to have a wife I would talk about most of these things with, but not everyone has a good partner.
I think the ideology you think of when you say it’s for everyone, is egalitarianism. Feminism can’t be for everyone in the same way that patriarchy can’t mean “womens oppression of men”.
Unless of course, you’re looking to confuse with the terminology.
Feminism is a range of socio-political movements and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes.
Tell me where in feminism are men’s issues dealt with? They aren’t, because feminism is about acheiving equality of the sexes for women. It is about advancing women and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Feminism doesn’t address men’s issues. It never has and never will because that’s not the purpose of the movement.
Beating people over the head with this out of context “social equality of the sexes” is only going to drive men to declare they aren’t feminists because feminism does not and never will address mens issues.
If you feel that claim is unwarranted please point out a single men’s issue that has been addressed by feminism because the Wikipedia article certainly doesn’t include any examples.
The word literally derives from feminine
feminine adjective (WOMEN) Showing qualities that people generally think are typical of women
There is an opposite term to feminism, masculinism, which then leads to the idea that it can’t be completely equal. But i assume people will keep using the term to mean “equal rights for all”, since thats usually how it goes with languages.
I just worry that the implication is changing so that women = equality and men = inequality. That train of thought is mainly what drives younger men to go off the wall with their chauvinistic tendencies.
But that is not how it ends up working. There are very little places to talk about men’s issues. It either turns in some incel shit or reddits menslib.
Feminism is not and cannot be for everyone.
Only an idiot would believe that masculine rights groups would primarily exist to serve the issues of women.
Why should anyone believe that feminism can solve the issues of men?
Don’t make feminism, a very good thing, into an all-encompassing ideology. You set yourself up for disappointment when not everyone rallies to your idealistic crusade.
Feminism is a tool of thought for liberating women. If you’re trying to use it to liberate men, you’ve got a self-serving ideology at work and it sucks to deal with.
Thanks, buddy. A needed statement.
Thou I’d love to hear your thoughts on veganism. Suffice it to say you’re wrong this time champ.
Feminism is explicitly about the social equality of sexes.
Actions speak louder than words, and despite all the No True Scotsman-ing, many, many words and acts of sexism against males has occurred under the banner of feminism.
I’ve read public press releases from mainstream feminist organizations like NOW proclaiming that the only reasons a father would ever seek custody of his child in a divorce is because he’s either a wifebeater who wants to retain access to the woman he’s abusing, or he’s a deadbeat who’s just trying to get out of paying child support.
There is a reason that the vast majority of people believe in equal treatment for both sexes, but only a small minority self-identify as “feminist”.
Sometimes it even meets that aspiration!
In theory, yes. In practice, not always.
Many feminists would not agree with you.
I prefer talking about equality when talking about equality.
Many feminists would not agree with you.
Really? Who? Give me some names and citations.
Read the rest of the comments, there’s a few good examples.
So, people who aren’t notable feminists and who could be trolls or bots? Gee, thanks, those sound like great sources.
Just because one claims that their own views align with feminism, doesn’t mean that it is, by definition- feminism. By this, I aim to mean that there will always be bad apples in any group of people.
So how about maybe not judging the whole of a thing on those that claim to align with it- yet show no similarities to it.
So how about maybe not judging the whole of a thing on those that claim to align with it- yet show no similarities to it.
Maybe if the people who are pro-equality shouldn’t grasp onto their gendered term so hard. Kinda weird that out of one side of their mouths so many people will say it’s about equality for all but insist we must use the feminine term over the genderless one we already have
Don’t want to be judged on gender lines? Don’t use gendered terms to describe yourself, simple
Again, you’re judging the entirety of a thing based on a portion of a thing. This is the same thing as when people call all vegans “obnoxious”when it’s just a portion of them that act this way.
I won’t get into the rest of the stuff in this thread, but I’ll disagree with your first point.
Feminism is a word. An English word. And that means it’s definition is driven by common usage not a book. If the common usage shifts to a toxic place, the meaning shifts with it.
If you disagree I’d love to hear your gymnastics around the word invcel, it’s evolution into incel, and then that further extension to femcel (even though the person who coined invcel was a woman).
Feminism has a static definition. And because of this fact- I disagree wholeheartedly with the entirety of your response.
This is not gymnastics. This is empirical truth. And I’m not getting locked up in attempts to define any whatabout attempts to derail the topic.
Stawp ghashlighting meh
My belief is that most women belive they want a sensitive man (after all, that’s the cultural norm), until they actually get one. It’s not super cool IRL unfortunately. Though it’s very rare that women admits this to themselves or others. Usually you can find another believable excuse, that fits with the norm. Abnormal sensitivity often comes with extra baggage.
Things everyone must learn themselves because patriarchy instills in them the opposite:
- Women are people
- Men are human
-Don’t tag yourself as PantsuInspector and then get mad that people don’t respect your opinion
A classic reddit moment, reading some very heartfelt words on the emotional journey of overcoming the loss of a loved one, you start typing a reply to thank… PantSniffer69
Meanwhile somewhere out in the world a poor lad born in '69 whose parents decided to call him Pant Sniffer is crying as the tiny 'puter people think he’s just a shitposter instead of a loving and caring fella.
I went through the worst depression of my life around 2017, tried to express these feelings to my gf at the time and explain why our romance was failing or why I spent half the day in bed.
Basically got told “poor you”, everyone has struggles, snap out of it and be a man. That definitely helped, and didn’t push me even deeper into feelings of worthlessness…
I’m doing ok now, but it was the first time I felt comfortable enough with someone to express those emotions, I was at my wits end. The response was eye opening, never again.
A given group of people are not a monolith. While we do share a lot of similarities, we also all have the potential to be a little different from one another.
I hope you get a chance to find someone that will allow you to be open like that again. Sharing those emotions and having someone their to empathetically receive them is one of the most gratifying things as a human.
Im sorry that happened, but never again what?
Like, “never again open up about a huge important part of my life to”
a) anyone, or b) someone you don’t know too long
Because only a) is healthy. I don’t think trying to mask your depression can work in a serious relationship.
Instead of saying to yourself “never again”, how about “never again with someone who will betray my vulnerability”? Because what happened to you sounds really horrible, but there are people out there who will be with you in your struggles and nurture and build you up in your vulnerable moments.
As a man someone who also struggles with vulnerability, there are ways to test the waters in a relationship (family, friend, partner, etc) when it comes to vulnerability so that you won’t be hurt like that again. I actually watched this video recently and found it really helpful: https://youtu.be/WyKFHd7cSaU
Of course, none of this is easy, but it can be life-changing to open up to someone and feel cared for. I’m glad you’re doing better, and I wish you the best.
I’ve been in a relationship with my partner for 12 years now and I am lucky that I found someone that was supporting of my issues since pretty much day one.
In the last year, after many years of therapy, I was able to finally be totally vulnerable to my partner even if she always was supportive, not holding anything back, and it was liberating and almost addictive for a while.
The feeling is indescribable and one of the best feeling of my life.
Been dumped, more than twice, immediately after crying in front of a woman. Make of that what you will.
more than twice
So, three times?
At least
Or more. Didn’t want to exaggerate, could only think of 3 lately. Been dumped a lot over 4 decades of dating.
But I’ve finally found the one! Took me that long to find a Filipino. (Guys, drop the American women, seriously, I’d never date one again.)
On a similar note, my ex-girlfriend of two years was ranting about how men do not go to therapy. Then I mentioned to her that I go to therapy, and been going from even before we met… and I will never forget the look on her face, she immediately stopped me mid sentence and told me she didn’t need to hear about it.
She broke up with me the next week and said something like she didn’t want to be with someone that goes to therapy, but one that went.
My sympathies for that rough experience. I hope you have a wider family and friend group that supports you taking care of yourself, and have or will find a better match of romantic partner.
thanks for your kindness, I did not have a support network back then but I do now after moving out to a new city
Happened to me in high school once. Haven’t really been able to cry openly ever since.
I’m lucky I recently upgraded from a biannual sob to a quarterly sob. We’ll see what that does for…
*gestures at everything*
Crazy thing is that I literally just connected that dot in this thread thinking out loud. I never once had the thought that expressing my emotions was unsafe, I just kind of took that feedback onboard and proceeded to not process grief for two decades.
Fuck, I can’t remember the last time I cried openly. I know I HAVE in the last few years, but I can’t remember when or why. Nothing romance related, but I just can’t remember…
You’re fine. I didn’t cry for years, maybe a decade+. Not because of any macho idealism, I simply didn’t.
Feels good when I do drop that oxytocin. That positive feedback led me to crying more often.
LOL, I’m not a whimpering mess, but I can let loose more easily, and that’s a good thing.
That’s fucked. If I was dating a guy and he cried in front of me it would make me happy to know that he feels safe being vulnerable around me. I would treasure him forever after that.
This is absolutely the way to look at that level of intimacy IMO because that’s how I view it.
The day my dad died, nearly 23 years ago now, was also the day that I knew I’d ask my wife to marry me.
It was a long illness and he was relatively young. We were living together and I had just sucked it up for 18 painful months. Never cried once.
Anyway the day came and I got home and just cracked when we went to bed. I just sobbed in the bed with her. Like a real, deep, deep sobbing.
She just held me and rubbed my hair and I will never, ever forget that.
Anyway about 8 months later I asked her to marry me and we’re married over 20 years now and have a beautiful family together. I love her so much.
Not everyone is a good person.
And my wife is exactly like you. But just sayin’, in my experience, most women are not.
And I get it! No woman craves a weak man. No woman says to herself, “I wish my man was a sobbing pile of goo!”
Women want a strong man, a man that protects her from the slings and arrows of life. We can be those men and still cry. But it ain’t easy.
I doubt that was it, but okay
Absolutely hilarious lack of self-awareness
I’ve thought about this a fair bit, and I can definitely recall a bunch of cases from primary school and high school when I opened up about my feelings and personal stuff; and it ended badly for me. It ended badly every time, and I reckon that’s why I basically don’t tell anyone anything about myself now as an adult. I don’t even share most stuff with my partner, or my family - such are the scars of past experience.
I’m sure this is similar for many people.
People are uncomfortable when a guy expresses negative emotions. Even those that process it well often seem unable to accept it. I hope you (and the rest of you in the comments) have either found a space or a person that you can be yourself around, instead of what everyone else needs you to be.
It certainly is for me. I still have difficulty whenever someone tries to compliment me on anything as a result of childhood bullying that frequently took the form of merciless insincerity.
I hope you’re doing better. Your life is worth sharing.
That term “merciless insincerity” is an amazingly concise yet thorough way to capture one of the pervasive things I get most frustrated by (across the many countries I’ve lived in, so it is not a georestricted behaviour). Whenever I try to describe it I get too wordy. I’m stealing that.
I don’t know if I want to blame the patriarchy or the toxic masculinity that goes with it, but crap. My ex was so not ok when I cried over the discovery of her affair.
She genuinely thought I was trying to manipulate her. I was “too extremely emotional” over it. We were highschool sweethearts, had a kid, and she always talked about how she was disgusted with her own mother for having an affair. Even to the point where she cut off contact with her mother until they ended that relationship.
“No man goes to bed crying because their wife cheated on them or sends nudes to the same guy 4 years later.”
There were red flags earlier than that. “Why are you crying over a movie?” (I always do at emotional bits). “Man up, no one wants to be with someone expresses sadness.”
What’s worse is that it’s pretty much why I don’t bother going out, or have much motivation to get back into the dating game. The patriarchy and toxic masculinity has ruined being human to me. I don’t want to be friends with people who cover up all their emotions. I don’t want to be friends with guys who are clearly over compensating. Then the girls turn around complain about these men being cruel to them, yet state things like this.
Then you have all the men who have this strange belief that they are owed women, and by behaving like that they get the women they are owed. I won’t take part in that. I will not hurt someone else just to satisfy my desires. If that means I don’t date, I’m much more comfortable being a good person and alone.
I also try to bring it up in conversation, and then people turn around and act like my refusal to participate in patriarchal behavior is anti-social. I had one person point out “technically, you aren’t getting any, even though you want it, making you an incel.” I was so shocked. Its not the fault of women I’m not out getting laid. Its men. It’s the patriarchy. It’s this system set up to isolate me because I have an intense emotional awareness.
My friend, I am so sorry you went through that. I understand it is incredibly hard to get over a betrayal coupled with an attack like that, but I know you can do it. Let yourself breathe and take your time but when you’re ready, there is a whole world of love out there for you.
There are so many people who will cherish the exact part of you that she took for granted. It is easy to go through something like that and come to the conclusion that you should stop feeling. I hope you don’t.
As for people saying you’re an incel… I literally have no advice other than no longer talking to them. There are people in marriages who are “involuntarily celibate”. This could become a rant about the awful nature of even the term “incel” but I think that would be a waste.
I hope you continue to show your strength by refusing to hide your vulnerability.
Thank you. That means a lot. I guess that’s the part I’m most uncomfortable with - why is expressing emotion seen as vulnerability? It’s one of our most effective methods of communication, particularly of empathy.
A lot of people are deathly afraid of self reflection, of thinking about themselves, about their own behavior and how it affects others. Because if you reflect on it, you might come to the conclusion that you have to change something about yourself. And that is hard work, that a lot of people simply don’t want to do (which I think is the reason for many things going wrong in the world). Being able to express emotion is a sign of the ability to self reflect, to be aware of how one feels and being able to communicate that. In a way it makes people aware of their own shortcomings, which is why they want to avoid it.
I think that maybe a different way to look at it would be to ask: why is vulnerability a bad thing? Everyone has emotions. Everyone is impacted and affected by things. To use your situation as an example - your partner betrayed you. You SHOULD be vulnerable to that. The fact that they can’t fathom having that level of vulnerability, to the point that they claimed you were trying to manipulate them, is the problem. That kind of emotional invulnerability is what leads people to do the kinds of things they did.
I truly believe that being vulnerable in front of someone, especially when they have hurt you so much, is strength. Showing someone how much they hurt you is really hard. Find people you can be vulnerable with. They’re out there.
The patriarchy is a system, and it’s both men and women who promulgate it
Then it shouldn’t be called “patriarchy”.
that’s not how things work. some prisoners helping the guards doesn’t suddenly put them at the same position in a prison.
I’m glad your ex is an ex. I believe it’s experiences like yours that highlights how sexism goes both ways. My heart goes out to you.
It only goes one way: from people sing gender stereotypes to manipulate others to the victims.
The fact that you can manipulate any gender while being any gender logically follows.
I’m still surprised people use the old definition of “incel” considering that the connotations changed to “radical misogynist” or “terrorist” in the eyes of the mainstream nowadays. Personally I wouldn’t be caught dead using the term to describe anyone who simply doesn’t get laid. In 2013 it would be fine but nowadays it’s almost slanderous.
you know her better obviously but sometimes you’re too close to see some things so here goes my opinion: I think she didn’t genuinely think you were trying to manipulate her.
I think she knew it was the appropriate response and she was the bad person so instead of facing that situation and losing the upper hand she thought she could use toxic masculinity to manipulate you to feel bad about yourself as a way to take the heat off of herself.
“you’re overreacting”, “you’re being too emotional” these are very common tactics that men use on women all the time. it’s just that it has the added toxic masculinity aspect when the roles are reversed.
“you’re overreacting”, “you’re being too emotional” these are very common tactics that men use on women all the time.
These are tactics all abusers use all. It has nothing to do with gender. You just only observe men. Spend time looking at women abusers like shitty moms.
did you not read anything before or after that quote? we were already talking about a woman doing it. this is me talking about, in response to their comment about whether it’s about toxic masculinity, that it is done the other way all the time as well, and this way has the added layer of toxic masculinity.
now I haven’t added anything to my original comment but this is what you missed.
That… Actually makes more sense and a thought I was trying to avoid. I know she said a lot of things where she said things to avoid feeling like the bad guy. Unfortunately for her, cheating on your marriage doesn’t have a defense.
“My ex cheated on me and rubbed my feelings in the dirt. How can I blame men for this?”
You can’t, if you think that women have any agency of their own lmao
