I’m perfectly happy talking about patriarchy if it’s appropriate for the topic, much as I’m perfectly happy telling people to shut up about patriarchy if they’re being pushy dipshits.

I’ll admit that this may not have been the best place and time for this conversation but it needs to be spoken of,

Hear me out here, but maybe if it’s “not the best place and time for this conversation” don’t have it.

especially to the people who want to hear it least.

Disgusting.

Look you’re spreading a mythologized patriarchy-as-Satan theology.

You may not want to hear it, but just shut up about feminism when men’s issues come up, and listen.

How can we call them responsible on an individual level when patriarchy is the only thing they have ever known?

This is such an extreme definition of total patriarchy that it’s an agency-robbing mythos. “What if every bad thing was caused by a concept?” isn’t a coherent or practical worldview.

Don’t believe in agency-robbing mythos. Don’t spread them, because somewhere in there you’re just giving yourself permission to lecture other people against their will at a time and place in which it is not appropriate for you to do so.

Spoken like a person whose sense of virtue has been offended. Your ideology has failed you because it stopped being a tool and became an ideology.

Sorry but feminists have trash takes too!

And yet every reply is in disagreement and almost every follow-up reply made by you is heavily downvoted.

Yeah, well, them’s the breaks. Can’t piss off the modrat libruls without dealing with their empty posturing anger.

You’re the one who brought up feminism in the first place and nobody said feminism should solve men’s issues.

Stupid.

The lecturers I remember would address questions instead of ignoring them.

How sad for you.

Just because the vast majority of people are unwilling to question their beliefs does not mean the concept is wrong.

Yes it does! At least to some admittedly limited extent!

I am a post-structuralist at least this much, that a ‘concept’ like ‘the patriarchy’ is very broad and frequently applied. Appeals to a platonic ideal of ‘the patriarchy’ don’t work on me.

I feel I’ve made my points about how you don’t listen and your points are nonsense and I really have no desire to talk to you

Thanks for the laugh.

Your approach isn’t working, you aren’t listening, good luck with that.

Sometimes it even meets that aspiration!

Talking about the patriarchy is feminism. Feminism necessarily centers women, or it’s not really feminism, degraded into an all-encompassing ideology devoid of its intended purpose.

(PETA isn’t feminism just because it can invoke the language of oppression.)

So yes, I advance this notion that talking about the patriarchy in a topic about male pain is centering feminism and therefore centering women. I don’t see that this should be controversial.

Except, of course, to those who universalize feminism into a cure-all ideology, which is shorthand for broken thinking which diverts feminism from its purpose.

You can’t fix men with feminism: that’s an incoherent idea.

Why shouldn’t feminist ideas center women?

I’m not saying that patriarchy centers women, I’m saying its invocation here centers feminism in a topic about a masculine issue, which is to, say, it’s rude and counterproductive.

Do you have anything empirical to show that would indicate what you believe or is it just something you want to believe?

Getting upvotes on my main points.

People who disagree with me right now are still in a backlash phase. They’ll either listen and think about it and accommodate the obvious truth that feminism isn’t a panacea for men’s issues because that’s just stupid.

Or they’ll keep on bleating about the patriarchy every time a man expresses some feelings.

And if you were listening instead of just screaming

I’m not screaming, I’m lecturing.

The centering of women in a topic about men’s feelings being undermined by women centering their perspective is an obvious problem. It’s not that difficult to understand that if a woman were talking over a Black woman’s experience to talk about patriarchy instead of racism, that woman would be out of line.

C’mon.

Your patriarchy concept isn’t working. You can’t reach men by talking about the patriarchy. Joe Rogan doesn’t talk about the patriarchy. It’s not that complicated, you just hold to your ideology hoping that if everyone nods their heads and says “yes the patriarchy is to blame” the problem will get fixed. That’s stupid.

their statement does not center around women.

That’s stupid.

Their argument is that patriarchal beliefs can be adopted by both women and men and in this case the patriarchal belief is that men shouldn’t express their emotions and in the image it is a woman perpetuating that belief by refusing to accept what was said.

You’re not listening. Try again.

You are correct that I was speaking glibly and that when I said “shitty woman” I could have said “a woman who happened to be acting shitty.”

But people are listening to me.

You haven’t addressed anything the other person has said.

So?

My point is about the nature of their statement and how it centers women in a topic that is about how when men speak about feelings women center a feminine perspective.

Just because you’re not listening doesn’t mean others aren’t.

You should really learn to ‘respect my no.’

This wasn’t an invitation for you to speak up.

I understand that you feel discomfort when men talk about the alienation of experiencing women being shitty, but you’re out of your lane now.

Blaming the patriarchy online does nothing to further your agenda, it just makes you look like someone who appropriates issues thoughtlessly and carelessly, as well as selfishly.

I understand that in your limited viewpoint “abolishing patriarchy” will solve every problem men have, but I think that’s stupid. Your ideology is not a cure; the only thing your spreading it cures you of is your own discomfort, and that’s inappropriate here.

Idk why you thought I was doing any of that.

Sounds like an opportunity for introspection for you, then!

Women thinking men are icky when they express emotions is because they’re taught from a very young age that expressing emotions is feminine and feminine, especially feminine men, is bad. This wasn’t a reach to blame on the patriarchy at all.

Just because you were taught to say stupid things on the Internet doesn’t make them not stupid.

You chose to say a stupid thing on the Internet, and you’re responsible for that choice.

Don’t erode your agency. Don’t erode the agency of women.

Just because you think women are mindless slaves implanted with doctrine by whatever they are taught doesn’t mean we all have to believe it.

The patriarchy isn’t “men are harming people all by themselves.” It’s the gender roles and gender hierarchy that both men and women perpetuate.

This wasn’t an invitation for you to speak up. You don’t have to center feminism in a topic about how masculine emotions are belittled by women, undermined by women, and appropriated by women to further their agenda. If you do, you suffer the consequences.

This is an opportunity for you to listen.

Feminism is not and cannot be for everyone.

Only an idiot would believe that masculine rights groups would primarily exist to serve the issues of women.

Why should anyone believe that feminism can solve the issues of men?

Don’t make feminism, a very good thing, into an all-encompassing ideology. You set yourself up for disappointment when not everyone rallies to your idealistic crusade.

Feminism is a tool of thought for liberating women. If you’re trying to use it to liberate men, you’ve got a self-serving ideology at work and it sucks to deal with.

It includes people who under the guise of ‘pure feminism’ rail against ‘patriarchy’ whenever men’s issues come up. Feminists are not immune to propaganda.

Stop deflecting blame from shitty women. There are shitty women who do shitty things and “the patriarchy” does not excuse their behavior.

Stop worshiping the patriarchy. The patriarchy is not God. The patriarchy is not to blame for every shitty thing a shitty woman does.

Sometimes women are shitty and you make the problem worse by telling everyone it’s not their fault because the patriarchy is God in your idiot doctrine.

acting like going through post history is discourse, like this, should merit a sitewide ban for 36 hours

I have explicitly told you I don’t care if I come off as unreasonable, so what’s your problem?

Then read it again. And don’t police tone.

I am taking some rhetorical leeway towards a more radical presentation of the perspective, for clarity.

Solidarity can only be achieved once people can recognize one another as equals, and “women tell men how men should advocate for themselves” is not equal recognition. Of course women don’t think they’re womansplaining the oppression men experience.

I don’t believe in reason-based argumentation. Reason is how consent is manufactured. I trust reason only within the confines of the emotional message a so-called rational actor is emitting within the performance of the ritual of discourse. Too many women have been told to shut up for being ‘unreasonable’ for me to take reasonability all that seriously.

Certainly mothers should perform their motherhood within this lens. Their motherhood is centered, not the primacy of their opinion. The mistake the essentialization&monopolization type feminists make is centering feminism, when an ideology is not a cure for anything except the nagging sensation that if we come up with and communicate the right ideas the problems will go away.