cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/18475086
I’m not against those who work for sex, but the idea to earn for a living doesn’t seem nice. IMO, sex should be for 2 people (or more for others who prefer polyamory) who wants to be intimate/romantic with each other. My point is money should not be the purpose.
My take is this.
I will guarantee universal basic job & income for everyone.
Once that’s guarantee I’ll see if anyone is willingly becoming a sex worker.
Without performing that “experiment” I cannot really respond.
Let’s take the opposite approach: look at all the top echelons of all past societies, assume that this subset of people was the most free to live in any way that they so desired, then count how many of these people did sex work. I think that we can safely assume that the amount of people that willingly engage in sex work is zero.
Add universal heath care including addiction treatment. This might or might not include de-penalization of addiction, depending on the jurisdiction. Breakdown this more to make clear what I mean. Besides the obvious complementarity between UBI and universal health care, people get to do this because they are also addicted, not just poor. Some are also manipulated by means of being addicted. The current approach that punishes the addicted instead of treating them only makes this worse. Countries that have made addiction a healthcare issue rather than a criminal one have seen results.
I think you’ll find that there’s still quite a crowd that would. UBI for sure would help curb the those on the street scene just trying to pay to survive. But there’s a huge group of only fans models that do things not to survive, but rather to become ultra wealthy
A very interesting take. I like that we’re questioning the root cause here.
I don’t believe that my approval or anyone else’s is at all relevant.
My position is that there’s only one person who has the right to decide that they wish to trade sex for money, and that’s the person entering into the trade. Assuming that all other contractual requirements are met - they’re of legal age and acting of their own free will and so on - it’s just as much their right to trade sex for money as to trade ditch digging or code writing or coffee brewing or meeting taking for money.
It have side effect on the people who do it: yes, I give a flying fuck about it: no
I’m of the opinion that if you don’t want people performing sex work, you should be enacting measures to improve people’s quality of life to where that’s not their only option. The workers themselves should have legal protections and be permitted to perform their job like any other worker is.
I suspect some people would prefer that as a regulated option anyway, and they should be defended in their choice to do so. Sex work is work.
Moreover, if you don’t want people doing sex work, then you probably especially don’t want people to be forced into doing sex work. But that’s precisely what happens when you criminalize it: you make it so that the only way the demand can be satisfied is through a shady black market where trafficking is orders of magnitude more likely to take place, and you make it orders of magnitude more difficult for victims and witnesses to go to the authorities to report it.
I generally agree with you, but it is so complicated. I read a piece in The Nation a few years ago (written 2019) and whenever I see a question like this I have to dig it up. Sex workers in Spain applied to become a union (OTRAS, for short, full name basically means “the other women") and were approved in August 2018. Here are a few snippets:
After OTRAS was legalized, its two dozen or so members—who include women and men, both trans and cisgender—quickly found themselves engulfed in a national controversy. Prominent activists, academics, and media personalities swarmed social media under the hashtag #SoyAbolicionista (“I’m an Abolitionist”) to denounce what they saw as basic exploitation masquerading as the service economy. The union’s opponents argue that in a patriarchal society, women can’t be consenting parties in a paid sexual act born of financial necessity. They liken sex work to slavery, hence their name: “abolitionists.”
OTRAS calls this abolitionist opposition “the industry.” “They live really well off of their discussions, books, workshops, conferences, without ever including sex workers,” Necro says. “We’re not allowed to attend the feminist conventions.” OTRAS accuses “the industry” and the government—the two loudest arms of the abolitionist camp—of racism and classism, and is irked by their claims to feminism. “A government that refuses to guarantee the rights of the most vulnerable, poorest women with the highest number of immigrants? How is that feminist?” Borrell bristles. “We’re the feminists, the ones fighting for their rights.”
While advocates for legalization argue that it will make sex work safer, abolitionists counter that it could instead endanger women who, unlike the members of OTRAS, did not choose to enter the profession on their own. Abolitionists frame their anti-prostitution stance around the issue of human trafficking, specifically for prostitution. They argue that regulating sex work will simply allow traffickers to exploit women under legal cover.
“The trafficked women have no papers, so if police raid a club, the women have no choice but to say they’re there because they want to be,” says Rocío Nieto […] Once law enforcement is out of earshot, Nieto says, “none of the women tell you they want to be there. None of them tell you they want to do that work.”
A handful of smaller radical-left parties also back OTRAS, as well as one unlikely ally: the right-wing Ciudadanos party, known for its harsh anti-immigration stance, among other more traditionally conservative postures. “Experience shows us that when the State refuses to regulate, the mafias make the rules,” the party’s press corps wrote me in an e-mail.
Sex work is work.
The people that do it deserve respect, and all the social and legal protections that attach to any other kind of work.
Your own preferred attitude to sex isn’t the point.
But should it be work?
Should we really have a society where selling your body is an opportunity to make money.
For instance, it imply that some poor women are gonna take it regardless the consequence, just because it’s the best alternative to pay the bills.
I can barely tolerate the physical straining we put on some workers. Sex work’s consequences are unacceptable to me in that same sens, sometimes worse.
So sure, no matter your opinion we should respect them, and not incriminate them!
And of course not all sex work is the same… to be acceptable it just requires better conditions. It can’t be something you choose out of need.
selling your body
i hate that phrasing to describe sex work. no one is “selling their body”, as they are still in control of it. sex workers provide a service, same as a masseuse or hair stylist (except their service involves genitals) and it should be treated as such.
Otherwise one could argue that all (physical) labour is “selling your body”
It seems to me like joining the military is arguably more deserving of the phrase “selling your body”; you’re basically signing up to get injured or killed.
I think the “body” in that expression is quite specifically referring to genitals, or the selling of your intimacy.
Because that’s what’s different from any other physical labour, the part of your body involved. That’s the specific problem of sex work no?
It’s not even an argument really, it’s the undeniable logical conclusion that trading your labor and/or time for compensation is work, period.
It is a high risk job along the lines of coal mining and such, since it will result in an increase in transmitted disease risk. It’s important to acknowledge that, but I am on the side of it being work. I just think we need strong protections in place and regulations to handle it akin to other dangerous jobs. Like, a sex work branch of OSHA.
Regulations would help, but create their own hurdles.
True and tested.
The best help is probably indirectly having better social policies overall. Although never perfect, the best we are the lesser the problem.
For instance, it imply that some poor women are gonna take it regardless the consequence, just because it’s the best alternative to pay the bills.
How is this principally different from a poor person taking any shitty job to pay the bills? Like garbage collector or similarly unpleasant/disrespected jobs. The system always forces poor people to settle for shitty jobs. Sex work is not the issue there, the system is.
It’s different in nature. No other jobs infringe on your intimacy in this way.
I do agree the system is the problem, i also would advocate for better conditions for any difficult jobs.
Therapist, hospice, nursing , sports medicine, massage… a lot of jobs require some level of physical or mental intimacy.
Therapist is another topic, with problems of mental intimacy indeed.
The rest is the patient’s intimacy that you have to deal with. It is a vastly different intimate experience to wash a genitalia and be penetrated. And so, vastly different consequences for your well being.
yes. why? because regardless of my opinion, when you make it illegal you make things worse for everyone. that goes for drugs, for people moving about on the earth, and all other such things.
Legalize and regulate.
This view also applies to many other issues our society faces.
Approve of? I guess. The problem isn’t the sex work, it’s the way sex workers are treated.
I think making and keeping it illegal, and thus unregulated, is the dumbest damn idea possible for the subject. Totally boneheaded.
Is it something that I would consider a good career even if it was legal? Nope. People suck. And people tend to suck the most with hormones going crazy in their bodies, and sex is one of those things that makes all kinds of chemicals flow. So, seems like a difficult, demanding job under the best of circumstances.
Would I hire a sex worker for myself? Ignoring that I’m happily monogamous, it’s unlikely I would for sex. I can see myself hiring a temporary cuddle buddy if I was single, and might do so if I end up a widower some day.
Depending on which jobs you count as sex work, I’ve known anywhere from a few to dozens of women in the field. Strippers, escorts, phone sex workers, and happy ending masseuses. Nothing but respect for them. Even dated a couple of strippers back in the day. One I was with for long enough to have discussed marriage some day
Sure, I don’t see why they should be treated any different than anyone else. I think the problem is the stigma around sex in general, and for that I blame religion.
No I don’t approve sex work. Who am I? The sex work administration? Do you need a stamp from me to perform sex work? No?
Then who cares?
Absolutely, as long as there is safety and security for all parties involved. Consent must be obeyed by clients and both the clients and employees should be required to supply current STD screens as well as having a safe location for the work.
Yes.
I used to think it’s impossible for a human to “want” sex work and default to the idea that it is inherently exploitative. Don’t get me wrong, there is exploitative sex work. But if that part is not present and they are willing to work there, what right do I have to stop them?
No, I don’t approve of any work. All work should be abolished, including sex work.
If you want the benefits of society you must contribute. Put your money where your mouth is and go start a hippy commune somewhere.
Work as much or as little as you like! Benefit from the fruits of your own labor! Don’t ask for a steel ax or nylon tent though. Such goods require an industrial society.
Yes, all work should be crime. Thanks dad
All workers deserve respect. Labor is our means for survival in the modern world, the base good everyone trades for their livelihood.
Regardless of the type of work, all workers deserve respect. Ya gotta eat.
Work is Work an it should be safe for everyone. Can you imagine the good they could do if that field expanded to Sex Therapy/Counseling. Where they could really help people with sexual disfunction and self esteem.
