https://lemmy.world/modlog?page=1&modId=107790
Shouldn’t there be some sort of baseline of sanity for community moderators? This dude is straight up pushing non-stop propaganda of his flavoring and deletes anything that he doesn’t like of https://lemmy.world/c/latestagecapitalism the mod log is very transparent and if that’s not power tripping I don’t know what is.
Oh hey look it’s me
The correct way to vote against bad moderators and community rules is to RUN YOUR OWN COMMUNITY. Make it a better place, moderate it better.
So bad moderators are ALLOWED to persist because nobody has stepped up and made a better place yet.
And if the response to that is ‘woah, woah, I don’t want to do all that work’ then… clearly the moderation isn’t that bad
Moderation certainly takes significant time and effort, which is why there will only ever be a rather small subset of the wide variety of personalities found in humans actually doing the work for free. It’s tailor-made for those without much else to do in life & who are desperately seeking to have more control over something in their lives. Not saying that’s true of all mods by a long shot, but it’s definitely a major draw for those of that persuasion. They’re always going to be an issue unless there’s some way to counterbalance their power without having to abandon the community and start all over again building another - one which still is just as vulnerable to falling prey to the whims of a person who shouldn’t be moderating.
I mod one of the larger communities. I’m just the janitor. Y’all are the real mods as far as I’m concerned. It really isn’t very much time as far as mod stuff here. I don’t read every post or comment. If y’all see something, say something. It doesn’t mean I will take the action from the flag. It only means I will read into it, give the benefit of the doubt in every way possible and mod very conservatively in line with community voting too. I also will tell you if I am commenting or questioning as a mod, and differ to another mod if I am ever involved in an issue personally.
Being a mod does not need to be a chore or a power trip. Just treat it like a job as a janitor and trust in the community as a whole while completely setting yourself aside. It is really not that hard.
And who do you propose has the job of moderating the moderators? Whoever that group is, same problem… instance admins, and if you don’t like the instance admins… build your own instance, with better rules, etc. Turtles all the way down.
You vote with your time and attention, if your participating in a community you endorse it. If you want to change the community you can, as above. Wishing, or externalizing, your desires onto other people’s behavior (the lifeless moderators your negging in the above comment) will not be effective in realizing the change you want to see.
And if the response to that is ‘woah, woah, I don’t want to do all that work’ then… clearly the moderation isn’t that bad
if the only people who can moderate, as you posit, don’t have a life - implying you can’t moderate because you do have a life… then the moderation isn’t bad enough to motivate you to take on responsibility… so its good enough.
Sorry, I meant to reply to you with [this comment] (https://lemmings.world/comment/12766392), but - further proving what I said in it first - I inadvertently sent the reply to the wrong person (I’m only noticing it this quickly because I was woken up by the call of nature).
(You’re linked post doesn’t address any of my points, and just repeat yourself, but okay fine)
Okay, if I understand that post correctly, you want direct democracy to determine moderation in a community.
How do you prevent brigading? What about a community talking about sensitive topics, like diet and exercise? Or vegan versus carnivore? One side’s going to have more people than the other, and they can moderate the other into silence?
I think it’s an interesting experiment, just like craigslist used to do, or slashdot with metamoderation.
If you build it, I’ll give it a shot
Hmm… Catholic clergy phenomenon?
Keep in mind that this community was created to replicate a community that was/is moderated basically the same way on Reddit. Mods on Reddit/Lemmy are basically dictators and they can do whatever they want. At least in this case the rules are clear–just avoid this community if you don’t find value in it.
Personally I think communities like this that ban or remove content based on genuine mainstream opinions and facts that don’t align with the dominant local narrative are of little value but that’s a broader discussion and would apply to many other communities.
“I reject your reality, and substitute my own.”
Obviously there are exceptions but the vast majority of moderators are fief lords stroking their own self worth.
It’s not really surprising when you think about the time they contribute, and the very few potential motivators. I think most people would enjoy moderating a community they’re passionate about but most people lack the motivation required to do it consistently.
I was really hoping it was a refugee community that formed from non tankies that were banned by R/LSC.
How are mods like this still allowed
Isn’t it the whole purpose of the fediverse to ‘allow’ anyone to do what the funk they fancy doing? ’ (within legal limitations, obviously I’m not apologizing breaking any law here)
I don’t know that community and have not much interest in knowing it more myself, but if someone was ‘abusing’ their moderating power in some community I was part of I see only two reasonable options, both starting by raising the issue within the community, discussing it with other members and then:
- If what I consider ‘abuse’ was pissing off enough other members, the obvious solution would be to deprive that person from their power… not by throwing them away or punishing them (how? In what name?) but by not using their community anymore. It’s Lemmy, it’s easy to start a new community with the exact same interest… but with a very different moderation policy (and a different moderator). There would be nothing that dude could do to prevent anyone from doing that or to prevent members from switching to that new community… leaving the dude alone.
- If not enough members in that community were pissed off by the way it’s moderated, or if I was the only one seriously annoyed by it, well, maybe that just means most members are fine with the moderation as it is and see no abuse in it. Then, the only question remaining to me would be to decide if I still want to contribute anything to that community?
I’m not saying that’s what you should do. I mean, I don’t even know if you just picked some random community to illustrate your point, or even if you’re a member of said community. I’m just saying how I would consider the situation.
Freedom goes both way: I can do whatever I fancy and do it how I fancy. But so can other people, even when I disagree with their ways ;)
The problem with the “freedom to do whatever you want” argument you’re making here is that one person (the moderator in question) has significant power and sway over what others trying to speak with similarly-minded people in that community are allowed to say - making for a serious imbalance of power. You need to use that community if there’s no other similar ones with an established & active user base which covers the topics that community is centered around.
As such, it should be incumbent upon the moderators to strive to be as close to the ideal of “impartial” as humanly possible. It is perfectly reasonable for users to call out bad faith moderation when it happens, otherwise Lemmy will be no better than a more disjointed Reddit.
The problem with the “freedom to do whatever you want” argument you’re making here is that one person (the moderator in question) has significant power and sway over what others trying to speak with similarly-minded people in that community are allowed to say. You need to use that community if there’s no other similar ones with an established & active user base which covers the topics that community is centered around.
Like i said, anyone is allowed to create a new community, that’s the whole idea. But one needs to be willing to do it ;)
Edit: that existing community one is looking to replace with a new one did not magically appear with all its members already subscribed. The mod had to make it so people were willing to participate and subscribe. So, should the creator of the new community. Like I said: one needs to be willing to do it… and put the extra work.
As such, it should be incumbent upon the moderators to strive to be as close to the ideal of “impartial” as humanly possible
That’s personal values. Values I may myself relate too but personal values nonetheless. And certainly not some indisputable truth that should be imposed upon everybody. At least, not in my mind.
It is perfectly reasonable for users to call out bad faith moderation when it happens
Indeed, exactly like I wrote earlier: if someone was ‘abusing’ their moderating power in some community I was part of I see only two reasonable options, both starting by raising the issue within the community, discussing it with other members
Then, actions can be taken. I just see no valid reason to appeal to some extra (new layer of) authority when all the power is already in the hands of the users.
Pilling up on authorities will never compensate for the lack of personal investment.
all the power is already in the hands of the users.
but the users are being manipulated. The vast majority will never look at the mod log and never realise that the comments they’re seeing have been editorialised.
Any user can easily see that comments have been removed, it says removed by mod, and you can also see that they weren’t downvoted heavily before removal. There’s no shadowbanning or anything like that on Lemmy, it’s right there for everyone to see.
but the users are being manipulated. The vast majority will never look at the mod log and never realise that the comments they’re seeing have been editorialised.
Hence, what I mentioned two times: the need to inform them by opening the discussion first.
Users don’t need to be gifted/attributed a new leader/mod. They need to decide by themselves if they need a new one, or not.Also, if there is no clue that a comment has been removed/censored (isn’t there some default text displayed?), then that should be something to discuss with Lemmy’s devs as I don’t think deleting comments should be invisible.
How do you raise your voice in a community if you get silenced there?
How do you raise your voice in a community if you get silenced there?
You don’t raise your voice (making more noise rarely helps, imho). You raise everyone else awareness that something odd could be happening in regard to some people/you being silenced?
I have never considered the question (I try not to participate in communities where people abuse their power, or to discuss with people that consider a personal aggression any disagreement or diverging opinion) but the first things that come to my mind is that if you get silenced (that can’t be know for sure before trying to publicly post your question in the community), you can still post in other communities that you know members of the first community do read (or in communities created to raise awareness on power abuse, and ask for suggestions). And you can message other users directly to ask them to raise the question publicly for you since you’ve been silenced. And then you can create your own community and start posting: the public timeline is, well, public, anyone will have a chance to read your post. But, really, those are just the first few ideas I would consider if my choice would not be to avoid being in a situation like that to begin with.
I think instances that host certain communities have the responsibilty of setting a certain baseline for mods. In reality if a community on a certain topic gets big enough most people will join the biggest instance of their community of interest.
I think instances should be allowed to set their own direction but genocide denial is something I really can’t have. Most lurkers and regular commentors (even on something like a meme community) will never see the bias and modlog of the mods. In an ideal world your approach would work but I doubt it does in reality as some communities become too big to fail and become the default. The mod would have to do a lot wrong to mess it up after that
I think instances that host certain communities have the responsibilty of setting a certain baseline for mods.
Once again, that’s something I could vouch for personally but me supporting that ideal would not make it a universal rule.
I think instances should be allowed to set their own direction but genocide denial is something I really can’t have.
That’s the reason why no one is forced to participate in any instance. I carefully select the communities I’m subscribed to and read, and then my home page only shows what’s new from those I’m subscribed to. Good luck finding any deniers content in that (or whatever else outrageous content), of they tried they would not last long… thx to the mods in those communities not being assholes and doing a good job.
And we’re back at what I was saying first, someone needs to do the work of cleaning the room. And it can be a lot of work, so not many people may be willing to do it.
In an ideal world your approach would work
I don’t think it’s idealistic, in fact I’d say it’s rather pragmatical: I say don’t try to police the whole Internet to get rid of those extreme assholes (that will never happen, no matter how outraged one may feel about their very existence). Instead, let assholes be assholes together, in their stinky corner of the web, just lets make we don’t have to read their shit content, or to breath in the same room as they do.
I may be wrong, but that’s how I consider the question.
that’s some real lemmy.ml shit here
Got removed because I said … even the tankies favourite daddy, Stalin … to explain what Lysenkoism was about.
Because “I called someone a tankie”.
Holomodor is literal Ukrainian nazi revisionist history that was pushed by pro nazi UN. Just because you’ve always believed “Stalin is bad”, doesn’t make every demonic lie against Stalin true, nor should it be permitted speech.
Holomodor is literal Ukrainian nazi revisionist history that was pushed by pro nazi UN.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_famine_of_1930–1933
Kazakhs reduced from 60% to 38% of the republic’s population; sedentarization of the nomadic Kazakh people
Russians did not just genocide Ukrainians.
Or Kazakh are also nazi who deserved it but it did not really happen?
Asking for a friend, dear.
So much focus on Ukraine, as if that’s the narrative Moscow needs. But never talk attack the Kazakh part of the genocide? I wonder why online commenters would behave in such way.
You’re literally a genocide denier
So ? Join a pro-capitalist Lemmy instance, problem solved
You can be anti capitalist and still very much anti tankie. Tankies aren’t communist.
I’m guessing we found that Lemmygrad user’s alt account lol.
I agree with you, but they, as they tankies they are, always lack nuance. You’re either 100% with them or just another capitalist lapdog
Are you telling me daddy Stalin killed that one guy once by mistake but the guy still deserved it obviously?!?!
Who me? I guess everyone who is not agreeing with your takes are tankies now ?
I guess everyone who is not agreeing with your takes are tankies now ?
Do you always misconstrue what people write? Or is just a natural talent you have?
I never said anything of sort. Bye
Well in that case I apologize, I thought you were calling me a Tankie
Well then I also apologize. It’s a new year and it’s not necessary to be a grumpy asshole (and I’m talking about me here haha).
I was originally talking about the Lemmygrad users being tankies, not you specifically
I think it’s important to be allowed to create any community one likes in the fediverse. I wouldn’t moderate like that either, but if some people want a community like that, they should be allowed to.
This is a fact but people can discuss and make their choices too… Fedi got that freedom!
If you want something run the way you think it ought to be run, your two choices are to run it yourself or settle for what’s put in front of you by the people who have the time, energy and motivation to do that.
Goddamnitalltohell I was hoping the Lemmy version of LSC wouldn’t get taken over by tankies too. Oh well.
“Why do they allow these people to gate communities on this website that allows just anyone to create and moderate communities??!?”
Don’t comment in spaces where you don’t respect the mods. You’re just wasting your time. It’s not like you have an inalienable right to an audience.
Defending genocides isn’t an LSC interest. The reddit LSC had this problem too. Tankies got into the mod team and started banning people who pointed out that China and Russia are also problems in Late Stage Capitalism. Effectively turning the sub into an anti Western community despite it’s rules. Not because of its rules.
Damn the tankies took over Lemmy world too? Rip.
Yeah, I think one of the .ml mods got lost.
Shouldn’t there be some sort of baseline of sanity for community moderators?
There should, but isn’t. I recently got into a mutually uncivil argument on the .ml world news community. A tankie kept abusively pestering me long after I told them to leave me alone and I made the mistake of voicing my irritation in stead of ignoring them.
While the tankie received no mod action, I was banned not only from that community, but also from the USA news community, the technology community and the fucking MEME community, in spite of none of them being relevant to the topic at hand (Chinese government ethnically cleansing Tibetans).
And it was Dessalines (creator of Lemmy and ml admin) taking time out of their no doubt busy schedule to make sure that some guy who commented on a post about China’s atrocities couldn’t upvote memes. Seemingly too busy to respond to my appeal, though, because of COURSE 🤦
So nah, when probably the closest thing to a “leader” Lemmy has is themself an unhinged tankie, there’s really no sanity required…
The block button is your friend
Simply blocking is not the solution to this set of problems though lol
The man is coding the preferred fedi reddit stack. It deserves that respect but yeah the rest is just an oponion!
My QoL has improved on Lemmy after leaving all the tankie instances and instance blocking
Woah, I think you just said the quiet part out loud.
I recently got into a mutually uncivil argument
This is probably the test I see moderators fail the most. I’ve seen so many instances of users getting into flame wars and then a mod comes in only to remove/ban one side.
If one user says “I love Trump! Fuck everyone who doesn’t!” and then someone responds “Fuck you! You’re a fucking idiot if you love Trump!” and only the first comment gets removed for being uncivil, I think less of the mod. The mod didn’t apply the rules fairly. They just removed the comment they didn’t agree with.
I use that example because, if the mod removed the second comment but left the first, then people would be posting the modlog to [email protected] as an example of terrible moderation. I think even users can be biased towards moderator actions they agree with even if they’re not fair.
And it was Dessalines (creator of Lemmy and ml admin) taking time out of their no doubt busy schedule to make sure that some guy who commented on a post about China’s atrocities couldn’t upvote memes.
With how they’ll suddenly mass-ban people I’m half convinced the mod tools many people ask for exist, but only on their installation, out of spite and enjoyment that only they have the power
Unfortunately db0 is one of them powertrippinbastards and a dirty dirty liar on top of that.
I saw db0 justify daddy is always right related to another power tripping but you got some links?
cite specifics when doing accusations or get downvoted
https://fedia.io/m/[email protected]/t/1616032/How-are-mods-like-this-still-allowed-to-moderate-and/comment/8793226#entry-comment-8793226
I said it before, I’ll say it again. This is why Lemmy deserves to remain a niche.
Not all communists are tankies.
No, fuck you.
