I am shocked. Shocked! /s
Hmm why cant they move to a pre hosted mastodon server
This is too much information being processed at a time to me! 😵💫
The only thing you need to know about how Lemmings think about politics is that they hate Mozilla more than Google.
Lemmings are bashing Mozilla because they are expecting better from them, while I don’t even expect Google to not be evil
That’s precisely my point. Tell Lemmy you’re a leftist but not vegan? They’ll call you a murderer. Tell them you’re a leftist but not an anarcho-communist? Yeah I’ll bet you love capitalism and the human suffering it causes, you Chauvinist pig! Tell them you’re a liberal? You’re practically a Nazi collaborator! (All things I have actually heard Lemmings say.) But tell them you’re a conservative and they leave you alone.
No matter what I do, I will never be leftist enough for people to be satisfied. The further left I let myself get pushed, the more flak I get for not being even lefter. On top of that, if I make even one step backward, like Mozilla deciding they don’t have the resources to moderate an entire Mastodon instance on top of everything else they do, I might as well have joined the enemy. But if I stop agreeing with them at all, suddenly I’m not worth harassing. It’s enough to push a boy right, it really is.
Thank you for misinterpreting my post and calling me a racist, @Communist. Unfortunately I don’t feel obligated to explain myself to you.
You know what, no, I will anyway.
The more I advocate for unions, the more I volunteer at food banks, the more I encourage people to look into things like alternative voting systems that could break us out of the two-party system, the more I look like a juicy recruit to radical leftists, and the more criticism I get for not destroying everything in my path in pursuit of an anarcho-communist utopia in which personal belongings are a distant memory and vigilante justice reigns supreme. I still hold left-leaning values, but that “utopia” is something I will fight tooth and nail against. Leftists as an organization (a leaderless organization, but an organization all the same) have made it clear that if I’m not 110% for them, I’m against them, and that the way to not be harassed is to not act like I’m for them but partway.
I’m still going to volunteer at homeless shelters and pick up trash on the side of the road and secretly try to start a union at any store I work at, I’m still going to look for the most progressive candidate I can in every local and general election. I’m gay myself and apart from the annual potluck, I’ve never stepped foot in a church in the last five years, but if a leftist asks, I’m a devout Catholic, I think being gay is sinful, and I voted for Trump. Maybe then they’ll stop calling me a Nazi.
People aren’t required to abruptly stop talking about the subject of their posts to also remind people that other companies are shit also. That’s absurd.
This must be the tech version of having to type up a 10,000 word essay on how Republicans are worse then democrats before you can type a single word of criticism against the Democratic party.
Can you point me to an example of that happening here?
Here’s one example of a mega-upvoted post that is critical of Mozilla:
https://lemmy.ml/post/13081759/9195853
I think it’s indicative not only of the prevalence of the view but also the quality (or lack thereof) of the arguments backing the view.
…he literally said firefox was better than most in the post? I don’t understand why you believe mozilla to be above criticism just because they’re better than google
and why bother criticizing a company so laughably awful as google, try saying you use chrome on a post, everyone will recommend you switch.
Where did that post indicate that Google was better?
Perhaps I should rephrase. They attack Mozilla (and users of Firefox) infinitely more than Google (and users of various Google products). I heard it said after Mozilla introduced their opt-out privacy-respecting ad tracking that users should “move to a more privacy-friendly browser like Google Chrome”.
This is true of Lemmy’s political stance in general. Tell them you’re a leftist but not vegan? They’ll call you a murderer. Tell them you’re a leftist but not an anarcho-communist? Yeah I’ll bet you love capitalism and the human suffering it causes, you Chauvinist pig! Tell them you’re a liberal? You’re practically a Nazi collaborator! (All things I have actually heard Lemmings say.) But tell them you’re a conservative and they leave you alone.
Perhaps I should rephrase. They attack Mozilla (and users of Firefox) infinitely more than Google (and users of various Google products). I heard it said after Mozilla introduced their opt-out privacy-respecting ad tracking that users should “move to a more privacy-friendly browser like Google Chrome”.
One of those entities claims to be on the side of users. When it constantly throws those same users under the bus anyway, it isn’t surprising that it gets more hate than the entity that removed “don’t be evil” from its motto.
Tell them you’re a liberal? You’re practically a Nazi collaborator!
It’s not our fault that fascists bleed when liberals get scratched.
I’ve never seen self-proclaimed leftists hurl more vitriol than when an openly-socialist labor organizer in my union said they were for freedom of speech (for humans) and generally supportive of firearm ownership. Absolutely wild reaction.
But don’t you understand? Any language or policy the right adopts, we must abandon, even if, on its face (if not in the right wing implementation of it), it’s something we agree with. Otherwise how will we identify and shun right wingers? They could be hiding anywhere, you know.
“Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary”
- Karl Marx
One can and should critique a company when they make mistakes.
What are you talking about? This is the Firefox community, not many people are going to stop mid-post to say “BTW I hate Google more”
… BTW, I hate Google more.
And you’re incorrect: the community for leaving Google is more than four times the size of the community about Google.
BTW I hate Google more
Does it matter that they don’t run an instance?
As long as they have accounts and keep them up to date, that is the main thing.
How many open source projects actually run and moderate instances?
The effectiveness of the internet as a public resource depends upon interoperability (protocols, data formats, content), innovation and decentralized participation worldwide.
- Mozilla Manifesto, Principle 6, emphasis mine
Can we all just use a “bad browser” that isn’t “as good” as these exploitative mainstream browsers by specifically giving up on websites that require a browser that exploits us? We shouldn’t need to be exploited.
That’s what I do!
Website don’t work? I immediately leave and don’t think about it ever again
Yeah! Websites be too needy.
Perhaps they didn’t want to associate with Meta.
This sucks (Was it really costing much money to run?) but as long as Firefox continues to work with fill full-flavor ublock I’m happy.
did an AI become their CEO by now? dumb moz foundation.
And yet people are still angry when I say that Mozilla is malicious.
Closing down an instance you chose to run is malicious? If you cannot fully moderate it, it can tank your reputation. The labour cost isn’t insignificant and is not something they should be focussing on.
Why are they angry?
I don’t know. I haven’t asked them. I have just seen the downvotes on my post(s) that were related to bashing Mozilla on Lemmy.
I guess hating Mozilla is very much in fashion. The tech chatterati have made it so.
They’ll move on, as they always do. I just hope Firefox is still here.
Critiquing Mozilla when they make mistakes is not the same as hating them. It is healthy to keep these organizations accountable
The issue is all signs point to them pivoting to AI and ad driven nonsense - they’ll move on, but if the product goes to shit so will I. The rest is noise.
That’s a little cringe isn’t it?
I mean there’s just no way around it. And I’m the most unapologetic Mozilla fanboy you will meet. What was the point of making a server if it was going to just die a few months later.
You need to be in control of your projects and your vision at least enough to know if you can make a credible commitment to the thing you launch. And, like others here, I’m honestly kind of surprised that this, of all things, was too much for Mozilla to handle.
Weird that they called it a “Beta”, like running a chat server you didn’t code is somehow an experiment. Just say you couldn’t be arsed running it anymore.
Y’all fickle beasts. Not a few months ago Firefox was a cult
I adore Firefox. Just tired of Mozilla trying features (FF Panorama) and hobbies (Notes) and then abandoning them
We aren’t fickle. We adhere very strongly to our principles but it’s easier to direct people to a name when they aren’t interested in understanding why.
Like all products, Firefox still maintains a small core of uncritical, devoted fans. To them, Mozilla can do no wrong.
The problem is, up until a few months ago, Mozilla advocated for privacy and other public facing values that lined up with their manifesto. Now, they are breaking away from that, and the true believers are shifting too: becoming hostile to privacy.
The people who liked Firefox because of its privacy stance, or because they were looking for an alternative to Big Tech, on the other hand, aren’t 100% likely to become a true believer, and those people are the critics. Often, those critics have been around for years going on decades.
I see this as revisionist history. Mozilla has long been beloved for a whole host of FOSS reasons, that align with the same reasons FOSS enthusiasts like anything FOSS. I do think there are fanbases for things who think their object of adoration can do no wrong (e.g. Sneako fans probably). They are out there, but I don’t see that as being true of Mozilla.
I’ve seen supporters of Mozilla make nuanced points about it being an imperfect but important diversification of options that prevents Google from dominating the browser space, often in thoughtful interactions with fans of (say) the Brave browser or Opera browser over the fact that they rely on Chromium which is sustained by Google.
Those convos have more going on than uncritical adoration, and imo it’s important to let those nuances breath so that they, rather the oversimplifications, can be our primary takeaways.
Interestingly, while talking in mournful past tense about Firefox’s having lost their way, in this same thread there are people a few comments above denying that criticism of Mozilla is prevalent here. You guys should scroll up (or down) and say hello to each other.
Are they still running a matrix instance?
I wonder when they will stop that, too.
So they aren’t exiting the fediverse. The whole premise of the article is wrong.
I think “the Fediverse” is generally understood to refer to ActivityPub-based projects, or even more narrowly, “things that can be seen from Mastodon”. At least I understood it as such, even if that’s not technically correct.
Nah. Its federated services. Matrix is part I’d the fediverse. Email is too.
As of August 2024, diaspora* is the only actively developed project classified under the tradition fediverse term that doesn’t support ActivityPub.
Wow! I didn’t know that Google and Microsoft are huge fediverse supporters! Email lovers ftw!!!
I would be mad if this would be next to fall since I use it. I don’t self-host Matrix since it is too expensive built on a fundamental ‘eventual consistency’ model mirroring all text & attatchments for all usersmin every DM & room—not to mention the Python implementation server & even the Rust one use much more system resources than other open chat options. It’s the same for Mastodon specifically too which but Ruby this time—with eventual consistency chewing up GiBs of storage making small players shut down instances. I would not be surprised that it fell next just based on cost.
Wanting to get folks off proprietary garbage like Slack, Telegram, & Discord was the right idea but moving to Matrix will prove to be a mistake as nodes are too expensive to run therefore leads to the centralization we need to escape. With the poor performance of the flagship Element client too, casual users think it is too damn slow (literally takes 2 minutes to even get to a screen with text in my browser & it isn’t even done syncing).
Just make a good browser… Thats all I care about from mozilla.
Well …
They don’t know how to do that and never did.
It’s always been “Uhhh let’s have people make Firefox accounts, yeah!” When, in this day and age, the last thing people need is yet another account to keep track of.
“Lets get into AI, yeah!” Said no one ever.
Like, is it too much to fucking ask for a simple, privacy-centric, security (not overreaching), performance priority browser?
I mean look around how many forks of Firefox that there are out there, having to do the legwork because Firefox isn’t that much of the shit it thinks it is.
I’ve never understood the argument. It seems to have kind of been collectively hallucinated into existence by waves of internet comment sections over the years. But these aren’t mutually exclusive, and nobody has made a case that the resources for these other features are compromising the ability to deliver core browser functionality.
They also seem to assume that it’s development decisions, rather than Google leveraging its search dominance and financial muscle, that are tied to changes in market share. I actually think these value-adds can be good, can punch above their weight and can, if they are smart in picking their spots, do so without necessarily compromising their ability to advance the development of Firefox.
And nobody ever stops, breathes in and out, collects the evidence and makes the actual case. It’s just kind of assumed, asserted, repeated, assumed again, repeated again ad nauseum. Because enough people have seen other people say it, so they say it too knowing it leads to upvotes.
The ones closest to citing evidence, thankfully understanding at least how a real argument would actually work, are also the most unhinged, which probably isn’t a coincidence.
Why would I take the time and energy out of my day to jump through hoops to prove my case. At the very likely chance that someone like you will refute it anyways and waive it off like you did with my comment?
Not worth it.
with how many singular developers managed to do it based on Firefox when Mozilla couldn’t pull their shit together, idk why anyone would still be holding their breath. just switch to a competent fork.
most forks still use the firefox base
that’s what’s i said, but they’re all better functioning than firefox
But without the base they can’t operate
but there is a base, and it isn’t good. the forks are. you said you want a good browser. they’re not making it. the forks are good. idk what you’re arguing about.
Most forks take an ESR version and build on top of that. Who is gonna make that ESR base?
You’re saying the equivalent of ‘I don’t care about the Linux kernel cause Ubuntu is better and everyone should use that’ of arguments.
Not saying you are literally saying ^
have I said anywhere that Firefox should cease to exist or Mozilla shouldn’t do security patches or whatever because i thought we were talking about having a good browser experience.
I understand that they need to diversify so that they’re not so dependent on Google’s default search engine money. I don’t know how they should do that.
But I’m not sure what they’ve been doing has been all that good of an idea.
They’re 80% dependent on google there is no choice. Mozilla’s behaviour since they got the google deal was the begining of the end. I honestly believe that due to Mozilla’s current leadership it would be best for open source developers to all refocus on the ladybird project. I don’t have any affiliation to that project and I understand how huge of an undertaking it is to build a web engine from scratch but the gecko engine is polluted by the Mozilla’s execs and by extension Google.
To make it clear Google controls Firefox by, in practice, owning an 80% share of Mozilla.
well paying execs multimillion dollar salaries aint helping thats for sure!
make their browser engine useable for 3rd parties and sell support, make an electron-like product and add premium features… there are so many browser-based products that people sell, and owning 1 of the only viable browser engines should be huge… the fact that firefox is still only barely able to be embedded is a travesty
it’d be especially valuable if they made a premium electron product that provided security/privacy guarantees, performance benefits, etc - they should siphon some of the profit off the number of for-profit companies that build electron apps
I kinda like the idea but I also kinda hate it.
I really wish PWAs worked properly cross-platform instead. :(
SSB was killed after it sat behind an about:config flag, then their telemetry (that most power users disable) reported folks weren’t using. But what average users would be using a setting they would need to poke around to find. It’s a real shame too since I want to say it was PeppermintOS that was largely built around PWAs.
That sounds dumb. :(
Pretty standard for Mozilla logic if you have watched the features cut over the years.
