Show transcript
Screenshot of a Tumblr post by nongunktional:
when i first heard about the male loneliness epidemic i was like oh yeah close camaraderie and bonding between men is often discouraged in favor of competition or, if not discouraged, at least filtered through a lens of individualism that precludes deep connections. and then i learned what people meant by it (men arent getting laid) to which i say skill issue
to all the men out there not getting laid: try less hard to get laid and try more hard to be an enjoyable and relaxing presence
I don’t think it’s just about sex. I’m not even sure incels think that. I think it’s more about relationships and someone to share your life with. I know some people seem fine with just friends and casual sex, but I think a lot of people have a need, or strong “want,” for a close, deep, intimate relationship. I know I do at least. Even if it was just about sex, sex is pretty much a human need.
Personally, I have severe life-long social anxiety (and depression), so it’s always been very hard for me to make friends or meet potential partners. I have worked on my anxiety issue (medication, attempts at self help, though I could never afford therapy), and I am better than before (I used to sometimes get panic attacks just being around large groups of people), but it’s still severe enough to hinder me in life in general (and noticeable to people around me).
I feel like, as an average white ~40 year old guy in a major city, getting dates and sex wasn’t that hard. But from what I’ve heard, the bar is extremely low. Like, all the woman I talk to (and the men who date men) have horror stories.
I think my worst dates were like… they mildly insulted me.
Neither of those come close to, like, various threats, violence, boundary breaking, and unsolicited dick picks that seem too common.
I’ve had three women cheat on me, one threaten to shoot me, one tell me “no you don’t understand, this is going to happen” when I attempted to refuse sex (which would be called rape if the genders were swapped but legally women can’t rape in my area so it was “just” sexual assault), one cry and threaten suicide if I ever wasn’t in the mood, and one that stalked me for months.
I’m glad you’re having a good time, but women aren’t God’s Perfect Little Creatures, they also do bad shit too.
Damn, dude, learn to identify red flags.
Workin’ on it lol.
Though, would you tell that to women who has had bad experiences with men? Food for thought.
Yeah, I’ve told multiple women that very thing, I’ve got a friend who I’ve said that to like a million times.
Is the male loneliness epidemic not generally understood to be the first thing? Also platonic female friends are actually the best, it’s crazy how willing women are compared to dudes to hype you up and support you when your primary motivation for the friendship isn’t sex.
It is. This is just casual misandry.
Their “advice” that they gave out is “be enjoyable” … some real big brain stuff
It’s the “works on my machine” of social interaction. I have never received a less useful piece of information.
Have you tried taking a shower? /s
Dumbass take.
A “skill issue” take, is just a republican “personal responsibility” take.
It’s dumb as fuck. How about you examine the systems that produce outcomes? Have you learned literally nothing from the last 50 years of the social justice movement?
Most women tend to not want to form relationships with misogynistic incels. That’s what’s seen as a skill issue.
Or men with autism or adhd. Cause that’s who you target with “just be more social and enjoyable.”
Men spending time to fix their financial issues instead of socializing up there too.
Don’t deprive the weak men of their agency. So many Trump toxicity ‘outcomes’ chose this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback
The notion of cause-and-effect has to be handled carefully when applied to feedback systems:
Simple causal reasoning about a feedback system is difficult because the first system influences the second and second system influences the first, leading to a circular argument. This makes reasoning based upon cause and effect tricky, and it is necessary to analyze the system as a whole.
The solution to a complex system isn’t to fret about how complex it is, it’s to cut the feedback loop.
Weak men who developed toxic politics are caught in a feedback loop. Cut them out of it. Not complicated, just abrasive.
But you can continue constructing your nuanced and sympathetic understanding. These men just need to be understood, that will help them.
You’re advocating genocide, or at least, one step away from it, and you don’t even seem to realize it.
You also seem to have no grasp of how complex systems or feedback work, given that feedback is a necessary and inherent part of many systems and cannot just be ‘cut out’.
Quite frankly, you’re more toxic then most of the men you seem to despise.
it does not follow from the marginalization of the other that every time you experience the marginalization of the other, it is directly connected to genocide. humans are more than ideal atoms, and some of them need to be communicated with in the language of harsh blunt truth.
Men who are unfuckable because of their politics need to man up. If you are spending several hundred words to say: “please integrate a more healthy relationship with masculinity” which is literally just telling them to man up with extra steps that they are uninterested in, you should consider that they are man enough to need to hear: “man up.”
You sound like someone who has read a lot and understood very little.
You sound like someone with the word ‘master’ in their online internet name.
There something quite ableist about all of this.
As if everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps without the support of a community around them.
“A gentleman is someone who makes everyone around him feel as comfortable as possible” - Brendan Fraser in “Blast from the Past”
They were so close to understanding the cause… Then they decided to just be a judgemental prick.
I had a long, protracted discussion with someone before leaving reddit in which he was certain toxic masculinity was feminists’ fault.
Women expect too much of men, will only accept buff and young guys, over 6’ tall, etc.
My ex of 30 years was like 5’10 and had a very agreeable dad bod. You know what actually matters – and what always mattered to all my girl fiends? The guys who cared enough to learn what we cared about, and who did all the little things. Never looks, never spending 5 hours in the gym. Spending 5 hours making a 2 year old happy is the sexiest thing there is.
But yeah, women make men toxic. 🙄
my anecdote is valid and yours isn’t
ok
?
Where did I say that?
I said that the ‘alpha male’ culture is toxic and wrong, in my opinion.
Why did you take my comment as an attack? That’s kind of weird, tbh.
But if they stop trying to get laid: they also wont get laid because they’ll… not go out and socialize. They’ll probably stay home in their comfortable bubble, play video games, watch youtube or anime or whatever, eat junk food, and jork it. Fall back into a comfy ritual. Catch 22.
And then they’ll look at social media, experience FOMO when it seems like everyone else is fucking or in a happy relationship, get stars in their eyes thinking maybe there is a chance to not be forever alone. Go out and try again and fall flat on their face socially again as they desperately and obviously try to get laid and reek of social ineptitude. And the self loathing is reinforced another notch towards suicidality/blackpilling.
Or they avoid flaring up that sense of loneliness and horniness by just shutting off from socializing (online or offline) entirely. Can’t experience fomo if you try to forget other people exist. But then of course they’ll get cabin fever and start hallucinating the hat man.
Crackpot theory of my own: I also think some of these men, considering how much they complain about how hard it is being men, are not particularly attached to being men at all. If it were convenient and safe and they could ensure they were hot/decent looking at the end of it they’d probably transition into being a girl to just not be lonely anymore. Basically, they’re “conditional eggs” or at least agender. If it becomes medically trivial to become a hot girl that’s what a lot of them would transition to. There was a thing within the incel crowd called “trans-maxxing”. While obviously transitioning with current technology and social acceptance probably wont make their lives easier (despite the transmaxxing manifesto claiming it would) there might be a point in the future where it would. Medical technology is advancing at a pretty crazy rate.
I do wonder what the social gender-divide fabric in that case would look like. What if say, a significant portion of existing men gave up on being men (but where not dysphoric trans, just desperate incels willing to throw away their identity for any intimacy through advanced medical transition). Most transwomen end up being straight once they transition. Either because they were always attracted to men on some level or because there is a significant chance HRT induces a change in who they’re attracted to. If the medical transition technology was advanced enough, it’d probably be possible to increase that probability by demand. This would shift the ratio of hetero women available vs hetero men available. Lower pressure to compete as men since you can just “join the other team” and there would intrinsically be more straight women available vs straight men.
Of course, this would likely upset traditionalists and conservatives. And it’d make TERFs feel vindicated “See! Men just want to possess women’s bodies for sex!” or something.
Brain computer interface haptics + VR/AR or Robot Waifus are probably more likely arrive before trivial “hot girl” transition is possible though and probably more likely to attract more forever-alones & incels than transition. Still a fun thought experiment IMO.
Your rant got it wrong in the first paragraph. People can socialize with or without hitting on others. Ah well, better luck next time!
My autistic rant started out longer and with more context. I cut it down and perhaps too aggressively. I was mainly talking about guys who specifically are less inclined to socialize than to stay home. Which is clearly a lot of people in general, not just hetero-guys.
That is, some hetero men generally only go out with a specific goal or reason to go out and socialize outside of socializing itself because they don’t find that on its own naturally a good enough reason, other than maintaining basic sanity/avoiding cabin fever.
Generally speaking hetero women have different requirements that don’t necessitate consistent socialization or even social skills so if they’re naturally a home-body and barely get out this probably wont be an issue for them dating-wise. If a woman is having issues dating, the advice given is almost never “you need to touch grass more”.
My own context: These days I do enjoy socializing for its own sake. Maybe a little too much considering how expensive it can be… However, I am an autistic guy and I used to think I was straight. I generally spent most of my early adult life staying home playing video games, working, and not otherwise socializing at all for like 5 years of my life like some kind of hermit. Thinking for that things would just work out magically for some reason in terms of romantic relationships for me. So I kind of have some understanding of this particular mentality. I only really got into socializing and “touching grass” originally to find a woman. If I had not had that goal originally I probably would have stayed predominately a loner. Its fortunate that I ended up enjoying being a socialite for its own sake anyway, but not every guy does.
Funny. I always thought it was a camaraderie thing because I’m married. That definitely makes a lot of sense though because young men are becoming more right-wing and most women do not like that so it seems like that would be a big hurdle and maybe they just need to figure their shit out.
There was an interesting podcast the other day about raising boys in the current era when it seems like many of them are turning to far right grifters and manfluencers
The fact that men are turning to Far Right Grifters is tragic. They’re not doing it because they’re horrible people, they’re doing it because they’re being left behind by everyone and only noticed by the Joe Rogans of the world.
If we had a guy on the Left who looked at men and say “I don’t know who you are, or what’s going on, but you my friend are enough and it’s not your fault you’re struggling.”, we wouldn’t have Man-O-Sphere bullshit
Instead we blame men for all of the world’s problems, and double down when they side with the only people who aren’t calling them incels. People who ironically, are actively turning them into
“They treated me like an animal, so that’s what I became.” seems to be the mindset between those brainwashed by the Man-O-Sphere
Part of my reason for thinking this is I’m trans and when I presented as a guy, I got treated like shit, nearly got kicked out of college over a bullshit claim (That was thankfully proven bullshit, which is why I said nearly got kicked out) that I stalked a female classmate. But once I grew tits, suddenly everyone was quick to tell me how much I mattered and that it “gets better”, people complimented me, people held doors open for me… Sure I probably make less than my male coworkers, but at least I feel like I matter.
When you’re a man, you’re assumed guilty because the world sees things through a Pink and Blue lens, anyone Pink is a victim, anyone Blue is an abuser.
And quite frankly, it’s not healthy for anyone.
Trans masc friends tell me that one of the things they miss most about presenting as women is drunk girl solidarity in nightclub bathrooms. Until I was a part of that conversation, I didn’t realise how much I cherish these moments. Hearing this helped me to understand the loneliness of being a man far more than I did before.
I think that there are men on the left who leverage their platforms to reach out to men as you describe, but the problem is that their reach is far more limited because compassion doesn’t sell as effectively as outrage bait; Manosphere content is incredibly skilled at creating a vicious cycle in which they incite anger in viewers, and, having nowhere to channel this anger effectively, it threatens to turn to despair, leading emotionally vulnerable viewers to return to the Manosphere, to “re-up” their rage. In the short term, it seems to offer some catharsis, but it fosters an odd dependence. The compassionate men on the left are more likely to resist this kind of dependence cycle (such as through taking steps to avoid unhealthy parasocial relationships with viewers, even if said relationships would make sponsorships more lucrative.
When the vast majority of everyone (other than said grifters et al) offers boys nothing but contempt and prejudice, they make them easy pickings for the only people offering them something else, even if they’re lying.
It’s similar to the reason that a guy who never gets attention from women is likely to ‘fall in love’ and immediately develop a strong infatuation for the first woman to pay attention to him.
This, men are attracted by the Man-O-Sphere because everyone else says they don’t matter.
God I’d love it if there was a Joe Rogan of the Left.
Critically, however, the “Joe Rogan of the left” will never, can never, and must never be engineered and groomed by the absolute unmitigated fucking cryptkeeper scumbags running the Democrat party.
Joe didn’t used to be an alt right scum bag. But then his left leaning guests boycotted him for having right leaning guests. Leading to a situation where he only had right leaning guests…
It was a mistake for Kamala to turn down the Rogan interview
Male loneliness is about camaraderie. If it was about getting laid, then prostitution would solve it. Busting a nut isn’t gonna fix a psychological problem facing the adult male population in modern western society and this shitty tumblr post isn’t gonna either. Its down right perpetuating it. Now, some truth is there; COMPANIONSHIP (not not getting laid) is a wonderful thing and does help, but the root of the problem is societal.
In so many words, this is just another “you’re lonely because you’re a bad person” misandrist jerk.
It’s not that bad.
If it’s misandrist to tell the Trump voters who modeled their personalities on empty victory declaration and hurting brown people, then I’m a proud misandrist. Men who suck don’t deserve to get laid. No one deserves sex.
.world ass take
Frankly my positioning on men and feminism is also received negatively on lemmy world. Everyone’s all about extending compassion and sympathy to men as subjects in an attempt to control them. Someone suggested we ‘redefine strength.’ To me strength cannot be redefined: you can only accept that many men are lonely because of their own choices and do, in fact, need to man up.
It isn’t easy, you know? It’s whether you get it or you don’t. Being fit and reliable is hard to some people.
Not all lonely men are Trump supporters
All Trump supporters who are lonely have some work to do and don’t really deserve sympathy.
Indeed, but my heart is going out to the ones who aren’t Trump supporters
Is it possible to have a discussion without some queball trying to make it about Trump?
a discussion about masculinity in the present political era with toxic online personalities and toxic politics and you’re upset that Trump gets mentioned? That’s a ‘you’ problem.
We are on @lemmy.world, it is allowed to not be American.
Why do you believe that lonely men must suck? Like, do you think men who would be decent partners just immediately find success and leave the dating pool, never to vent their frustration with modern dating culture?
Studies show that political division is affecting dating.
The political environment involves a lot of broken weak men who learned broken weak masculinity and that’s affecting dating.
You… do realize there are lonely men in other countries, right? Like, the US is not the only place on Earth? Ah yes, the infamous Trump voters from checks notes … Norway, Egypt, Japan, etc.
And if you’re gonna say “Well they’re not voting for Trump but some other Trump-like politician”, don’t bother. You can’t generalize every man, half the world population, just because you know men who voted Trump/Trump equivalents. Because if that’d be how it works, I could just as easily find you a woman that voted Trump and then point out how, supposedly, women suck cause they vote Trump based on this “evidence”.
Thank you for perfectly demonstrating one aspect of the peoblem you claim to understand. Assuming all lonely men are conservative is not only wrong but fucking stupid and extremely judgemental. Thank you for proving that you do not understand this problem what so ever, so now you can be safely ignored for the rest of this conversation.
Drag’s partner deserves sex. Lots of it. Until it can’t think straight.
Haven’t seen you in awhile Drag, wonderful to run into you. First time on my new instance! (Had to switch form Lemm.ee)
the Trump voters who modeled their personalities on empty victory declaration and hurting brown people
???
Are you assuming lonely men all fit the above description?
I think a lot of lonely men do fit that description; studies show that political division is affecting dating. It’s not that complicated.
You’re very much part of the problem. Reddit would be a much better fit for you.
Stereotyping and generalizing is uncomplicated by nature, yes. That’s the whole point, after all—to prejudge so that you can ‘spare’ your mind the effort of considering individual situations and circumstances.
Mass individual situations are contemplated through generalizations. I’m not interested in every snowflake.
You tell them.
The idea that men are struggling to find friends is a real concern that should be addressed, people being unable to find sexual companionship because people of their desired sex don’t want to be around them due to their personal choices is something that can be made fun of.
Many women want a guy who is pro choice, can cook, is able to hold a conversation that’s not about sex, is capable of having platonic female friends, has hobbies, and has decent hygiene.
If that is not something you can attain, that’s fine and there are still women out there for you but that eliminates a large percentage so if you want to be picky on top of that you are going to have a problem
Many women want a guy who is pro choice, can cook, is able to hold a conversation that’s not about sex, is capable of having platonic female friends, has hobbies, and has decent hygiene.
As someone who is literally all of these, it’s still a nightmare to find a romantic partner. Personallt, I’ve given up on going out of my way to find someone, because every time I put myself out there I either get ignored or ghosted
Pro choice, sympathetic to womens issues, good cook, able to converse about many topics, platonic female friends, hobbies, good hygiene, >6ft tall, healthy weight, reasonably attractive, good degree and then job.
That is/was me and I’m happily married, but it took 7 years of putting a lot of effort into dating before I met her, and I was not picky about who I dated.
The idea that men can easily find a partner by meeting a few basic requirements is divisive tribalist nonsense.
It’s not that they can easily find a partner if they meet a few requirements it’s that lacking those requirements makes dating much harder and if you are struggling to get a girlfriend and when trying to think of reasons why it’s been hard and all you think to do is blame society instead of focusing on self improvement that’s a problem
Anecdotal evidence counts for shit but I’ll give it anyway of my friends/coworkers who complain “I can never find a good woman” about 3/4 have no hobbies where they ever interact with women and the last 1/4 fit the “I can’t have a normal conversation with a woman without trying to sleep with her”
Society itself does suck and it has made in person hobbies much less common with the death of the third space, isolating people through technology, and just how much it cost to live but I have never met a person who is even moderately social that has a hobby where they interact with people of the opposite sex, and has platonic female friends that couldn’t get a date in less than a year if they were actively searching.
Introverts need love too but if they look at their list of problems and rank “society hates men” above “I never see women in a social setting” that alone is their biggest problem
Nobody here is arguing that Trump supporters or stinky men who only care about women for sex deserve to have partners.
It’s just that you and the OP don’t acknowledge that finding a partner is hard for a lot of men who aren’t jerks and have a reasonable amount going for them and the implication is that it’s own fault and they must be a dick.
If you flip the genders and make a statement like: “if a woman can’t find a decent man it must be their own fault. It’s easy, just go and take up some male dominated hobbies and take a shower.” Its an asshole thing to say, no?
So how about we try not to be assholes and have some empathy.
I have acknowledged it multiple times
I’ve looked and I don’t really see that you have. You seem pretty dismissive of the fact that this group actually exists and quick to jump to attacking maga cultists and gross men who disrespect women - who nobody here is sticking up for.
Did you look two comments up when I said
“ The idea that men are struggling to find friends is a real concern that should be addressed”
The problem with “just get hobbies to meet women” is it’s glaringly obvious when people are there to do that. You can’t force yourself to enjoy an activity; you’ll naturally do what you want, which is approach women.
I have never met a person who is even moderately social that has a hobby where they interact with people of the opposite sex, and has platonic female friends…
Kind of a pointless truism. Dating is a numbers game, more encounters is more success. You even admit it could take this prospect up to a year of effort, now imagine that you have to build that opportunity network from scratch.
It is a pointless truism, and it is a numbers game which is why it’s so shocking people don’t see that!
So if one persons spends 1 hour a week with eligible women and the other person spends 10 hours a week with eligible women the second person is statistically much more likely to find a partner.
And if you spend only 1 hour a week with eligible women and instead of increasing that time you just decide to blame society that’s a you problem
There is also a difference between pretending to be interested in something to get laid and trying to find ways to do things you find interesting with other people
The time and energy investment to get those hours is not linear. Going from 0 hours to 1 hour is (by definition) a massive change. You’re describing the solution as if there’s an accessible way to make meaningful connections in the digital era. If it were as simple as described, we wouldn’t have this societal problem because humans really don’t like being lonely.
…a difference between pretending to be interested in something to get laid and trying to find ways to do things you find interesting with other people
What’s the difference? Your advice never said the hobby needs to interest you. This whole conversation is about finding companionship and intimacy, not group hobbies.
Also, all of this argument puts aside that diving into new group activities is time and resource intensive. Having the time, flexibility and money to switch between them just to meet a few new people is an incredible privilege. It also inherently assumes you have access to these groups. Guess if you live in a social desert or don’t have reliable transportation you’re SOL and a loser for life?
You mention this as being because of the digital era but what about that is any different than 25 years ago? If you don’t have time to spend a few hours a week pursing a hobby how are you going to have time to be in a relationship? The cost of pursing hobbies is a real concern for lower income people but how has that changed? How were you supposed to date a person if you lived in a social desert with no reliable transportation before?
Maybe I haven’t been clear with what I am saying because you are grossly misunderstanding my point.
I am saying when you have a problem you should try and improve yourself to address the problem vs blame society. For example if you can’t figure out how to program in python: you could read about it, watch educational videos, or take a course. Going onto a message board and complaining that python is impossible and stating we are in a programmer epidemic while not trying to learn it first is bad. We can make the acknowledgement that python can be hard for some people to learn but calling it impossible to learn without having put in the effort is useless
The idea that men are struggling to find friends is a real concern that should be addressed, people being unable to find sexual companionship because people of their desired sex don’t want to be around them due to their personal choices is something that can be made fun of.
But conflating those two categories of men as if all lonely men are the latter, does no good to anyone, and only helps fuel misandric stereotypes.
The conflation is the problem but in my experience it is more people who are blaming the former when it is clearly the latter
Like if you walk around with a maga hat and tell women your body my choice and also complain you can’t find a nice women to settle down that is a skill issue
What about all the MAGA who got women? What did they do right?
if you walk around with a maga hat and tell women your body my choice and also complain you can’t find a nice women to settle down
That’s an absurd stereotype that obviously doesn’t apply to the vast majority of lonely men, though.
Maybe the skill issue is in not realizing that.
P.S. Also, there are plenty of married couples who are both MAGA, and I myself had no shortage of single MAGA women popping up on dating apps when I was single who made it crystal clear they weren’t interested in anyone who wasn’t also MAGA, also anti-vax, etc.
P.P.S. ‘Your body my choice’ was a meme for like three weeks.
So tell me this then: When people hear that a man hasn’t dated, why is the first thing that comes to your mind the assumption that “you walk around with a maga hat and tell women your body my choice”? Is that the only explanation? Is there no nuance in the world? If a man has never dated, is he automatically MAGA and anti-abortion?
It’s not the first thought, however when a person blames society for all their problems instead of making an effort to improve themselves that screams maga
Plenty of people struggle to date for a variety of reasons but the people out there calling not get laid the “male loneliness epidemic” are generally not the most normal people
Alright, anedotical evidence time! I am aware I am in a bit of a bubble, as I try to avoid the local variant of maga as much as possible in my life.
But I know several single male friends who I would say are at least of average attractiveness, smart, funny, know how to use a shower and a toothbrush, have decent education/money, cool hobbies and are politically progressive. Also I know of at least three of them who are deeply unhappy about not getting into a meaningful relationship.
Sometimes people are just stuck in a life situation or a place with not many compatible options and ways to meet people.
How do you define “cool hobbies”
Skinning hookers in their basements, plotting the violent takeover of the government, woodworking, climbing, just the usual boy stuff, you know?
Jokes aside, “things that a large percentage of the population looks at and says, hey, that is a cool hobby”. How is that for a definition?
Woodworking is a fun thing to do and a great conversation starter but also commonly done at home or at a shared work area that is all male
Rock climbing and plotting the violent takeover of the government has worked well for me however
Probably the least toxic response I’ve seen twoards male loneliness. :3
Mandatory “If you’re homeless just buy a house”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jh0EN1De4Q
