Show transcript
Screenshot of a Tumblr post by nongunktional:
when i first heard about the male loneliness epidemic i was like oh yeah close camaraderie and bonding between men is often discouraged in favor of competition or, if not discouraged, at least filtered through a lens of individualism that precludes deep connections. and then i learned what people meant by it (men arent getting laid) to which i say skill issue
to all the men out there not getting laid: try less hard to get laid and try more hard to be an enjoyable and relaxing presence
People who make getting laid or not their whole personality are people that I would want nothing to do with.
and then i learned what people meant by it (men arent getting laid) to which i say skill issue
Is that what it actually refer to ? Then I too, misunderstood.
Unfortunately, in addition to being discouraged from camaraderie and bonding, many boys and young men are also discouraged from ever developing the emotional security needed to see, or outwardly acknowledge that they are lonely and suffering from their lack of connections to others beyond sex, and are instead taught that any form of vulnerability (like acknowledging their unmet need for connection) is weakness they should be ashamed of because it’s unbecoming of a man
We really do men and boys a huge disservice :(. Sometimes you hear the idea that we should “teach men not to rape, rather than teach women to protect themselves”, but I’ve never heard anyone talk about how in practice what that would look like, is raising emotionally healthy and secure, interpersonally competent boys, who are equipped to handle difficult emotional situations and the hormones that will show up as teenagers.
Not everything comes down to how men are taught. These men made bad decisions for their cultural and interpersonal growth, and until they stop making those bad decisions, they’re unfuckable, and that’s good.
There being causes for someone’s cruelty doesn’t change their responsibility for it, but understanding those causes is vital if you wish to do anything about the fact that it is a persistent societal issue.
I don’t think ill socialized, emotionally unwell, harmful people should be fuckable, I think that we need to recognize that they are ill socialized, and emotionally unwell, if we’d like there to be fewer harmful people in the future.
I don’t have any problem recognizing that, my solution is to tell them they made bad decisions and need to man up.
Wait, what? I thought it was about camaraderie as well. I mean, yeah, I wish I was getting laid but I’d honestly rather have a community of people around me who provide mutual support to each other.
It’s not just about getting laid, but there are of course incels that make it all about that.
Yeah, I don’t know what the tumblr user in the screenshot is talking about. That’s just not what people mean when they talk about the male loneliness epidemic. Seems like they just want to put others down while dishing out useless, hollow advice …“be enjoyable”… lmao wow they solved it, great thanks.
If it’s a conversation about 3rd spaces and a lack of opportunities for IRL social interaction in modern society, I think it’s more apt and more productive to just call it a loneliness epidemic. People who are not cis-men have the same problems of not being able to access affordable, pleasant places to socialize in their communities. Calling it the “male” loneliness epidemic just leads to animosity and division where there should be solidarity.
I mean, the specifically-male loneliness epidemic is a symptom of the patriarchy. Patriarchal societies pretty much define “male” as someone who can’t talk about their feelings. Which is, again, pretty much the definition of the specifically-male loneliness epidemic.
Males are hardly allowed to talk about their struggles, so they frequently struggle with mental health problems on top of that. Feminism, a.k.a. solidarity, is the only way to solve this.
Turns out “leftist” take-generators are not immune to making up bullshit to mock & deride for social clout
Misandry is sadly pretty common.
Funny. I always thought it was a camaraderie thing because I’m married. That definitely makes a lot of sense though because young men are becoming more right-wing and most women do not like that so it seems like that would be a big hurdle and maybe they just need to figure their shit out.
I’m lonely because my male friends turned into incredible assholes during the pandemic, became predatory creeps and started sharing videos of Andrew Tate. So I dumped them.
I miss ‘hanging out with the boys’ nights eating wings with beer while estiver l watching sports, or having barbecues, or playing board games or video games.
I have a LOT of lady friends now, though. But it’s not the same.
🫂
That sucks man. Its never an easy thing to lose a friend, nevermind a whole bunch of them.
Man… the dude was my friend since my early teens. We were like brothers. We drifted a bit apart after he moved in the suburbs and had a family. It was hard to hang out with work and everything. He was like the central hub of a group of friends from those early teens.
We had a group chat and new people joined in. Friends of theirs. During the pandemic some became vehemently anti-mask, or anti-vax. It was extremely difficult and awkward when we got back together coming out of the pandemic when it was still a hot topic. One of the guys is a far-right religious type and started pushing Fox News and Andrew Tate clips in the chat and the others either became outraged (in the wrong way, like in agreement with Fox News) or started agreeing with Tate.
Then my best bud became vehemently LGBTQ-phobic. Like it became a conspiracy where they were trying to indoctrinate his kids, 2 girls. Became outraged at trans people and anything related to that.
I tried to talk some sense into them, but it was really not working. They very quickly got deeper into this shit through YouTube videos and their fucking algorithms that keeps pushing more far-right content than anything else. Then it went out of control.
When the other far-right guy posted a Fox News clip about the female olympic boxer who could be disqualified because she was failing a test for testosterone or something, Fox saying she was a trans woman, my friend lost his shit. I didn’t have any more energy to talk any sense in him so I just quit the group chat and never spoke to him or the group again.
I spent some awesome times with those guys and have fond memories of hanging out with them. Sharing DragonBalls mangas, playing GoldenEye 007 on the N64 and later playing Halo on the X-Box together. Watching stupid b-movies and awesome anime. Going out to sports bars together. Playing basketball. Etc.
I feel so lonely right now. I don’t have any friends like them any more and it’s really weighing down on my depression. I only have the one friend from high school left who’s normal, but he’s flaky and often cancels on our plans or is always 1h late to dinners and events. He also never calls me. I’m always the one calling him. He’s not doing too well either so maybe that’s why.
Anyway. Thank you for reading through this if you did.
Thats gut-wrenching man, I’m so sorry, that’s a horrifying loss
I have a sleep disorder that often leaves me very isolated in spite of my connections- feeling disconnected from anyone around you is brutal, it does rough things to your head
It doesn’t help that making friends as an adult is incredibly hard. Most of my friends came from going to events in my local kink community and that has helped, but I’ve been trying to brainstorm more ways to feel connected to community when my sleep allows. The universalist unitarian churches seem interesting, they’re essentially secular (I’m very much an atheist) and are very progressive. It might be kinda nice to pick up a hobby like martial arts or rock climbing but those cost money and I am very broke right for the time being 😅
I hope that in the not too distant future more good folks find their way into your life, isolation can take a very heavy toll 🫂
This is really sad.
I want to believe your former friends could be de-eadicalized, but man, i would not envy anybody actively trying to do so.
I have had a similar experience with a group of friends from college. They have been slowly getting worse, if not quite as bad as your group. I haven’t completely cut them off, but I rarely hang out with them in person, and ignore the group chat most of the time.
I had another group of friends from rock climbing, that slowly moved away to colorado. I still talk to them online and play video games with them occasionally, but I miss the literal IRL hangs.
I’m also fortunate to have other friends from college who I have more politically in common with, we have another group chat where we talk shit about and commiserate about the other group and the general state of the world. We’ve also been trying to get together IRL more.
Don’t settle for weak men, make them man up for you.
I sincerely hope no man makes the mistake of going near you.
Mr. Tate, funny seeing you here!
deleted by creator
Don’t try to be something you’re not.
So I shouldn’t try not to be be ugly and unpleasant?
I think this is one of those “All advice is bad advice, if you are behaving like a dumbass” situations.
I mean, the answer is that it is both. Like, not having close friends sucks. And not getting laid sucks. And both are valid and legitimate things to complain about.
Like, honestly, the “skill issue” take is super toxic. It’s basically the same as telling a poor person that not being rich is a skill issue. The lack of understanding and compassion for peoples’ legitimate problems will only radicalize them further.
the men who won’t man up need to be told to man up, especially if they tried to man up by imitating a child predator fascist.
That language will get you nowhere fast. Given that this post is meant to highlight toxic masculinity and its negative repercussions, “manning up” is the furthest thing from what they should do. Redefining what it means to be strong is closer
“redefining what it means to be strong” is stupid
maybe reconnecting with strength and disparaging weak conceptions of strength
I get you. Some of these boys need to be told to get out there and get scared. Everyone wants to huddle in their comfort zone, and to hell with anything or anyone that drags them out. That’s a toxic black hole. If you’re not experiencing some discomfort and fear, you’re not living life.
Had to break myself away from that black hole today. Went out to my camp. Ah fuck me it sucks out there in the summer. You gotta bathe in bug spray, and reapply constantly. Thought I would stroke out several times. Got some walking and shooting in, got some work done, came home and showered, feel great. Imagine if I had sat at this keyboard all day talking to you fuckers. Downward spiral.
Bravery is being scared and doing it anyway. Be brave.
deleted by creator
Good lord are you worked up with assumptions! I say again, young men need to get off the coach and get out their comfort zones. This is a thing anyone can do. You don’t need 2 acres of swamp, you can go walk till you drop, talk to a girl, go somewhere you’re leery of, anything that scares you will do. We can’t experience bravery without fear, and we can’t live a full life without bravery. Anything less is merely waiting to die, and no one deserves that.
I’m not blaming these men, and if we’re making assumptions, that smells like victim mentality. Fuck all that. As I said:
these boys need to be told
How to encourage them to get out and purposefully be uncomfortable? I have no ideas. But it has to happen or we lose a generation to ennui, depression and reclusive dweebs. Again, downward spiral. That’s a hella gravity well to escape.
As active as I am, been fighting it for a year since I lost my job. Young guy across the street and I were tight a couple of years back. Now he sits and plays video games all day, growing fatter every time I see him, zero social life. What am I doing? Chatting with you people. I’m certainly not helping him. Best get off my ass and eat my own dog food. Charity starts at home they say! :)
And don’t for one fucking second lecture me on privilege. I understood and internalized the fact of my luck and status since the 90s, since long before society at large started talking about the concept. You been alive that long? How many stories you want where I felt my privileges in my very guts? I am well fucking aware, thank you for your concern.
You are way out of line and owe me an apology. That’s not a thing I say online, but you have wronged me, put me in boxes I don’t fit in or deserve.
(Can’t edit my own posts)
Just texted the guy. Nah. He just jumped in a game with some people. See what I mean?! He’s getting fatter and more antisocial by day by day. He’s in his comfort zone, totally unbothered. I’m not baggin’ on gaming, but outside a part-time jobs, that’s all he does!
deleted by creator
And by dismissing their very real issues as a trivial matter not worthy of even discussing, you’ve now pushed them into the arms of people who make false promises and exploit them.
Congrats, you shot yourself in the foot.
I’m not saying that punishing politically toxic men is trivial, I’m saying it’s worth doing. You can’t make a man change by pandering to him, you have to actually communicate with them directly, or they’ll tune you out.
What you’re doing is not communicating with them. You’re preemptively dismissing them as your enemy and then acting surprised when they walk towards those who are acting welcoming.
“Not immediately insulting them over their voiced concerns” isn’t pandering…
I cannot fucking wait for the day Lemmy ships the “blocking an instance removes its users from comment threads” feature.
deleted by creator
What is this place anyhow? I get pushback on .world for telling feminists that men’s problems won’t be fixed if they understand the patriarchy harder, and here people are defensive of the notion that politics made some men really shitty.
Did a bunch of lonely men end up here instead of lemmy world?
deleted by creator
You are making the mistake of anthropomorphising communities. There are no singular trains of thought here. There are just people of many sorts posting messages for others to read. Full stop.
Yeah ok but you are not immune from having a local culture sorry
leftists of ALL sorts (which is its own entire topic of how freaking diverse that is),
so is it like the subset of leftists that isn’t outright commie?
You seem to be using politics as a cudgel against men instead of attempting to understand the social forces that are creating this problem in the first place.
yes, because using the cudgel is preferable to endlessly theorizing
You can pretend to not understand all you want, but your ignorance won’t be tolerated for long here.
🫡
the problem isn’t the good people on .world.
the problem is the endless horde of dipshits on .world who need to do a lot more detox from shithole social media like reddit, and stop spewing their ignorance into every comment section they infest in the meantime.
since they won’t stop doing that shit at anywhere near the rate necessary for me to enjoy & derive value from this place, I will be removing them from my default experience the instant that option becomes available to me.
it’s on the good people of .world to either help their compatriots self-improve, or find a less shitty instance. because when it comes right down to it, there are a hell of a lot of good people not on .world for me to talk to, and that’s plenty. the ones who stay indefinitely on a shitty instance are not irreplaceable. not by a long shot.
I think you’re funny, spewing your impotent frustration. At least I actually want men to man up.
deleted by creator
It’s not both because “not getting laid” has nothing to do with the male loneliness epidemic and is not what people mean when they talk about it
So it’s misnamed?
What do we call the epidemic where males are lonely in general? We … are discussing that very real problem affecting the minority sex, right?
Right?
What do we call the epidemic where males are lonely in general?
The male loneliness epidemic
It’s clearly both. Men who are lonely tend to not get laid, either.
Also tend to be a less “relaxing presence”, creating a bit of a negative feedback loop.
I’m getting laid regularly and also incapable of joining voice chat with my best friend or inviting them over.
Yes I’m in therapy, it’s helping, thanks.
Getting laid is an activity that does involve other humans, so it certainly is a method of combatting loneliness. But if it’s not as part of a partnership, it hardly does anything for some of the deeper cutting problems that are described as the “male loneliness epidemic”, particularly not having anyone to share your struggles with…
The issue is that for a lot of lonely men (probably most), the issue is social ineptitude, hangups and all the issues in modern life that make forming connections hard. That impacts their ability to form friendships, find romantic partners and to get casual sex.
Some men might be able to get casual sex but not friendships, but I doubt that’s true for most.
For me, while getting laid regularly doesn’'t actually solve any of the other problems in my life, it is like an “easy button” for being happy. Things have to be pretty bad for me to get upset when I’ve had sex in the last few days or expecting it soon. Unfortunately I’ve never been able to maintain a relationship where that is the case so it ends up having the opposite effect until I eventually end things and go back to being just mid all the time.
and then i learned what people meant by it (men arent getting laid)
Weird post, that literally just isn’t a thing at all. This reads like a thinly veiled attempt to try to put down people they perceive as “not getting laid”. This kind of “skill issue” attack rhetoric actually contributes to the male loneliness epidemic
Yeah, right? Sex isn‘t even a huge aspect of why I‘d want a relationship anymore. It would complement it, sure, but if the relationship otherwise is just an expensive, instagram story bullshit, body insecurity fuelled mess where eating disorder meets self-worth anxiety…fuck no!
I just want someone to hug and cuddle with atp if I‘m being real. Does sharing this on lemmy make me “weak” and “un-manly” in the eyes of society? Maybe, but that‘s part of a problem I honestly don‘t care about any longer.
It’s as ironic as it is frustrating that so many of the same people who’d be outraged at the notion of a woman’s value being determined in any part, by whether she is a virgin, will, gleefully and without irony, consider virginity not only a valid, but a go-to insult to use against men.
Double standards are so irritating.
Also all the “progressives” who use penis size as insults. Like, are you trying to promote toxic masculinity?
Especially frustrating when they try to justify it because it’s aimed at a ‘bad guy’. Doesn’t change the fact that penis size is as immutable as height, and is therefore completely idiotic to use as basis for insult.
Not to mention the complete lack of empathy and consideration for all of the decent guys who have penises that are ‘small’ too, who are catching strays for no good reason every time that’s used as an insult.
…height, and is therefore completely idiotic to use as basis for insult.
Boy do I have some bad news for you, “manlet” is also perfectly valid in their eyes.
It’s not news to me, my choice of height for the analogy versus something like eye color, which also would have worked, was deliberate.
I’m extremely wary of anyone who insults or compliments others or even themself, based on any immutable characteristic.
To me, it reads like they’re just extrapolating the statements from the loudest group of people who tend to yell online about the male loneliness epidemic (incels that blame women for their celibacy) out and assuming that’s the majority opinion, which actually tends to be more referencing actual loneliness in general. Either that, or they just worded it a little badly.
I do agree that the rhetoric can be a bit detrimental though.
I feel like, as an average white ~40 year old guy in a major city, getting dates and sex wasn’t that hard. But from what I’ve heard, the bar is extremely low. Like, all the woman I talk to (and the men who date men) have horror stories.
I think my worst dates were like… they mildly insulted me.
Neither of those come close to, like, various threats, violence, boundary breaking, and unsolicited dick picks that seem too common.
I’ve had three women cheat on me, one threaten to shoot me, one tell me “no you don’t understand, this is going to happen” when I attempted to refuse sex (which would be called rape if the genders were swapped but legally women can’t rape in my area so it was “just” sexual assault), one cry and threaten suicide if I ever wasn’t in the mood, and one that stalked me for months.
I’m glad you’re having a good time, but women aren’t God’s Perfect Little Creatures, they also do bad shit too.
Damn, dude, learn to identify red flags.
Workin’ on it lol.
Though, would you tell that to women who has had bad experiences with men? Food for thought.
Yeah, I’ve told multiple women that very thing, I’ve got a friend who I’ve said that to like a million times.
deleted by creator
It is. This is just casual misandry.
Their “advice” that they gave out is “be enjoyable” … some real big brain stuff
It’s the “works on my machine” of social interaction. I have never received a less useful piece of information.
Have you tried taking a shower? /s
Dumbass take.
A “skill issue” take, is just a republican “personal responsibility” take.
It’s dumb as fuck. How about you examine the systems that produce outcomes? Have you learned literally nothing from the last 50 years of the social justice movement?
Most women tend to not want to form relationships with misogynistic incels. That’s what’s seen as a skill issue.
Or men with autism or adhd. Cause that’s who you target with “just be more social and enjoyable.”
Men spending time to fix their financial issues instead of socializing up there too.
Don’t deprive the weak men of their agency. So many Trump toxicity ‘outcomes’ chose this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback
The notion of cause-and-effect has to be handled carefully when applied to feedback systems:
Simple causal reasoning about a feedback system is difficult because the first system influences the second and second system influences the first, leading to a circular argument. This makes reasoning based upon cause and effect tricky, and it is necessary to analyze the system as a whole.
The solution to a complex system isn’t to fret about how complex it is, it’s to cut the feedback loop.
Weak men who developed toxic politics are caught in a feedback loop. Cut them out of it. Not complicated, just abrasive.
But you can continue constructing your nuanced and sympathetic understanding. These men just need to be understood, that will help them.
You’re advocating genocide, or at least, one step away from it, and you don’t even seem to realize it.
You also seem to have no grasp of how complex systems or feedback work, given that feedback is a necessary and inherent part of many systems and cannot just be ‘cut out’.
Quite frankly, you’re more toxic then most of the men you seem to despise.
it does not follow from the marginalization of the other that every time you experience the marginalization of the other, it is directly connected to genocide. humans are more than ideal atoms, and some of them need to be communicated with in the language of harsh blunt truth.
Men who are unfuckable because of their politics need to man up. If you are spending several hundred words to say: “please integrate a more healthy relationship with masculinity” which is literally just telling them to man up with extra steps that they are uninterested in, you should consider that they are man enough to need to hear: “man up.”
You sound like someone who has read a lot and understood very little.
You sound like someone with the word ‘master’ in their online internet name.
There something quite ableist about all of this.
As if everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps without the support of a community around them.
“A gentleman is someone who makes everyone around him feel as comfortable as possible” - Brendan Fraser in “Blast from the Past”
