Instead of being in prison, they were dying out off hunger and concentration camps… There are idiots supporting US, and hypocrites supporting china…
1970 was during the cultural revolution. In that year, the world population was 3.68 billion, and the population if China was just shy of 830 million - China had 22% of the world’s population, so if they held (only) 20% of the world’s prisoners, they’d have a lower than average incarceration rate.
The same is not true for the US today, we have less than 5% of the world’s population today.
ITT: Liberals who assume that evil Chinese MUST be lying about their statistics but the above board whites of the USA are not.
The red army of china didn’t really take prisoners.
What are you talking about have you never heard of
emperorComrade Puyi?
Your brain on for-profit prisons:
Woah watch out. You might offend Red Scare propagandists
Wow China really dropped the ball on this one.
Ah, yes, good point! I shall now mindlessly suck off all non-western propaganda without thought, thank you for the awakening comrade!
Which part of comparing incarceration rates do you take issue with? Why is acknowledging the difference “mindless?”
I didn’t have any problem comparing incarceration rates, you’re pretty bad at reading if you came away with that. Not surprising from one of the people im mocking, though
That’s all this post was about, though, a comparison showing that per capita (and totally), incarceration rates in the PRC is far lower than in the US Empire. The purpose is to highlight the hypocricy of those who hold the PRC as more repressive than the US Empire, when the opposite is abundantly clear to anyone looking at hard metrics such as incarceration rates.
You decided to make a pivot in a completely different direction and just complain about Marxists, which just screams that you want attention more than anything. I suppose I’m providing that for you if that’s what you want, but really it’s just good practice to call out the incoherence of anti-communists.
13th is a really good documentary. Indentured Survitude
1 843 701 US prison population
1 686 108 China prison population
The trick is to always assume “China is lying about its internal statistics” and inflate whatever number they give by an arbitrary large percentage. 1.7M is obviously an under-count because the CCP is always lying about everything.
Also, you can do some broad brush “Everyone in Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, North Korea, and Taiwan are prisoners of the Chinese state, so actually that’s over 60M people” napkin math to make the numbers look better.
I think this is a good rule of thumb in general. When statistics agree with my preconceived notions, I consider them trustworthy, and if not, I assume that reality lines up with what I expect. For example, the referendum in held in the Baltics about leaving the USSR ended in favor of leaving, which I think is a good example of a trustworthy statistic. But the subsequent referendum in the remaining members ended in favor of staying in the USSR, and I think that’s a little suspicious, don’t you?
When statistics agree with my preconceived notions, I consider them trustworthy, and if not, I assume that reality lines up with what I expect.
I… thought you were being sarcastic. This is an obvious and severe flaw to have in one’s rational thinking.
prejudice (noun)
1. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions.
2. An adverse judgment or opinion formed unfairly or without knowledge of the facts.With much love and respect I ask you to please read the remainder of my comments in this thread.
oic. Carry on, comrade.
Why would it be suspicious? Different members of the USSR had different national conditions, some were quite nationalist and opposed being a part of the USSR, some were more internationalist and wished to retain the Soviet system. In the following years, there have been many studies verifying that of those who lived through Socialism, the majority wish it had remained over the devastation Capitalism brought to the majority of people.
How can I say this in .ml-ese? Hmmm, try asking the folks who actually lived in those places.
How can I say this in liberal-ese? It’s well documented that the majority of people who lived in the Soviet Union want it back. This is no surprise, 7 million people died due to the reintroduction of Capitalism, poverty skyrocketed, food insecurity skyrocketed, wealth disparity skyrocketed, prostitution and human traficking skyrocketed, and their economies were obliterated.
Where you from?
Doesn’t matter. I have spoken to people from the Soviet Union. I don’t personally need to be from the Soviet Union to read on its history, or the devaststion that came from its dissolution, and you saying you or someone you knew was from it doesn’t invalidate those I have spoken to and the research I’ve done. It’s lazy, anecdotes matter very little in the face of hard metrics and facts.
It’s suspicious because it disagrees with my preconceived notions about communism.
The opening of the Soviet Archives backs up these claims. If your pre-concieved notions about Communism are negative, I really recommend giving Blackshirts and Reds a read if you’ve got the time and willingness.
See now there you’ve made a crucial error. You’re recommending a book which, while it has some criticism of the specifics of how the USSR implemented socialism, on the whole it’s quite positive about the idea of establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat in general. Obviously that disagrees with my preconceived notion that humans are greedy, and that therefore capitalism is good, so I would never read a source that contradicts this, because I would have to dismiss most of it outright. And that’s just a hassle.
I don’t follow, the author being positive about the working class running society rather than privledged elites having dictatorial control a la Capitalism doesn’t mean you need to dismiss the facts it brings up outright. Are you saying that, as someone biased towards Capitalism, you dismiss any criticism of Capitalism and any positive opinions on Socialism outright? If so, I can’t imagine how you live your life in other areas that contradict your current understanding!
To return, I don’t at all believe it’s suspect that the majority of people wished to retain Socialism, and this fact is further cemented by this same general notion being repeated over and over again in polling.
No, Occupied China doesn’t control DPRK or ROC
If we play that game we can’t trust American numbers either so the whole conversation becomes pointless
If we play that game we can’t trust American numbers either
😏
ILikeNazis
In what way is the PRC “occupied China?” The people overthrew the nationalist KMT dictatorship, who then fled to Taiwan and murdered all of their opposition among the people that were living there at the time.
On its own that’s misleading, you should be using the per capita stats.
I’m sure he hasn’t got a clue how many Chinese there are, or where China is.
All that matters is China bad, commie badPer capita is misleading, it over represents low populations and under represents high populations
When you use it, it makes Canadian cities appear more violent than American cities as an example
And yet, the USA still the 5th highest in incarceration numbers and the highest in absolute numbers.
I’d say that tells you enough
Per Capita shows that China has a lower total prison population than a country much smaller than it in population. Both per capita and total counts are lower in the PRC despute having several times the population.
Yes, I can read the graphic and my own post
What people feel to be true is often very different from what is actually true. You will not get anywhere by arguing with tankies, they’re not unlike MAGA.
What’s your point, here? Marxists are bad because China has a higher population, meaning per capita comparisons are more accurate when directly comparing with the US?
I haven’t said Marxists are bad, I’ve agreed that China is bad.
Are you planning on living in China?
Blue MAGA denying facts, literally the actual numbers and think that we just “feel’ it’s true” are pretty much the same as MAGA.
Per capita isn’t misleading, it’s more relevant than totals.
More creepy US prison statistics.
This happened right before the cultural revolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine might have helped cut down the potential prison population…
First of all, I’ll take the honour of using .world’s favourite word: whataboutism much?
Second of all, wow, there was a hunger episode as a consequence of bad ecological policy on a preindustrial society?!
BTW, life expectancy in China at the beginning of the socialist revolution was 35 years, by the time Mao died it was above 55. Those are hundreds of millions of lives saved.
You can read the chart: incarceration rate per 100,000.
Let me address a few things. First, I didn’t post my response because I think the incarceration rate in the U. S. is OK. It’s not. Incarceration of non-violent criminals is especially aggregeous. Private for profit prisons are a horrible idea.
I responded because the OP posted an image comparing the incarceration rates of the CCP’s cultural revolution to the current U.S. incarceratiom rate. The implication is that because the per-capita incarceration rate was lower in China during that time, it was a nicer place to live than current-day America. That ignores the part where the Chinese government starved to death 15,000,000 - 55,000,000 people, or put in Americanized terms: somewhere between the entire population of Pennsylvania to the entire populations of California AND Pennsylvania.
Claiming that a per-capita measurement normalizes all factors, makes a sampling error based on survivorship bias. It is highly unlikely that the overlap of people who starved to death during the CCP’s famine had the same incarceration rate of those who did not. I’m guessing rich and party aligned individuals had a much lower rate of both starvation and incarceration.
This would certainly be true in the U.S; Incarceration rates are much higher for low-income individuals: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/income.html. Low income individuals are also more likely to starve to death in a famine* (*citation needed). Now imagine if the United States government starved to death the poorest 10,000,000 people in the U.S. and then started bragging about how much it’s per-capita incarceration rates have improved!
The CPC did not starve to death millions of people. There was famine in China from natural causes, and the CPC did their best to alleviate that as best they could, even if millions ended up starving despite their best efforts. The PRC is still a developing country, and this was ever more true during the Cultural Revolution. The Cultural Revolution had its fair share of issues, the modern CPC doesn’t look fondly upon it, but the famine would have happened even without Communists in charge, and in fact it did! Famine was common in China before it industrialized under the CPC.
There was famine in China from natural causes
From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine
It is widely regarded as the deadliest famine and one of the greatest man-made disasters in human history
(Emphasis mine.)
Also, regardless of the reason my other points stand: having millions of poor people starve to death will reduce you incarceration rate, and people might choose to live in a country with a higher incarceration rate if it means they don’t starve to death.
The Great Chinese Famine was caused by a combination of radical agricultural policies, social pressure, economic mismanagement, and natural disasters such as droughts and floods in farming regions.
From Wikipedia. Western scholars exaggerate the human factors and minimize the environmental, which were the cause.
From Prolewiki:
It is true that agricultural production decreased in five years between 1949 and 1978 due to “natural calamities and mistakes in the work.” However, during 1949 and 1978, the per hectare yield of land sown with food crops increased by 145.9% and total food production rose 169.6%. During this period China’s population grew by 77.7%. On these figures, China’s per capita food production grew from 204 kilograms to 328 kilograms in the period in question.
China did not have a famine because of communism. China had a natural famine and while some policies strengthened it, others minimized it.
To be perfectly clear, I don’t subscribe to the notion that communism is bad and capitalism is good. I think every socio-economic system has pros and cons and are prone different forms of degredation and usurption.
I think the people leading a country and the people that comprise its society have a larger impact on life than their system of government.
With that said, a government is ultimately responsible for the safety and well-being of its people.
It’s the system that determines how its run, not the people at the top. Your analysis is teetering into Great Man Theory territory, which is derived from Idealism, not Materialism. The mode of production is primary.
Secondly, yes, the government is responsible. Is the government also responsible for drought, though? What should be judged is that, as I stated, food production was dramatically improved, and the government eliminated famine in a country where famine was common prior to Socialism.
For what it’s worth, capitalism is progressive compared to feudalism, but regressive as compared to socialism.
Yeah but everyone knows the US has more people per capita than anywhere else
More people per people
The trick is to call fertilized embryos people and use dead women as incubators
More people…per capita…🤯
Nicely done, I approve.
My brain had to do a hard reset after reading that. Thanks, I hate it, lol
maybe they really mean it, where companies are people but not capita
The top score would be Gaza tho with 100% of its population being prisoners of Israel.
The proposed stat is '20% of the world’s prison population". No country can ever reach 100% while any other country on Earth has at least 1 prisoner.
Israel is trying to zero out that number as quickly as they can.
Statistics are Khammaaaaz!!!
what “slavery is allowed if the enslaved person is a prisoner” does to you
I’m not saying the US isn’t shit with for profit prisons, but I’m not believing shit for any number that China provides on pretty much anything.
To be fair, China is 2nd in overall prison population by country globally, so it’s not like their numbers are complete bs. I’m sure there is some fudging in what constitutes as a “prisoner” when they have “re-education camps” though. That said, the US’s numbers are fucking insane.
they have “re-education camps” though
Do they, though? You, as a champion of human rights in China, are aware that the reeducation camps are closed for years now, aren’t you?
I’m sure the government that lied about wrongly imprisoning people in the first place is totally being truthful now.
I wouldn’t take the Chinese or US government’s claims at face value.
I’m sure the government
I’d by “the government” you mean “The Washington Post” and much more western media, then sure
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/23/china-xinjiang-crackdown-uyghurs-surveillance/
There’s an example article, a quick google for “China closed reeducation camps” will throw more results if you feel like doing a bit of research on the brave defence of human rights that you champion.
And the information they publish comes from where exactly?
There is no need for snarkiness, by the way. You act like Im attacking you directly. If this is how you communicate, I’m just going to block you and move on with my life.
the information they publish comes from where exactly?
As per the article: “A nine-day reporting trip by The Washington Post through the region…”.
I understand you’re not attacking me directly, but it’s so exhausting seeing the same talking points of concern trolls like you who have heard on reddit and Lemmy about the Uyghurs, and uncritically swallowed the western propaganda and champion the rights of an ethnic minority in China. And when confronted with stuff you don’t know, such as the camps being closed for years, you jump to saying “according to whom, to the government?” and when confronted with the fact that it’s western media publishing this, you go ahead and go yo claim “where does this come from exactly?” as if journalistic work wasn’t possible or as if the information wasn’t literally on the third paragraph of the link I sent.
As per the article: “A nine-day reporting trip by The Washington Post through the region…”.
Ah, interesting. My apologies, I’ve been driving all day and have been checking my phone sporadically and haven’t had the time to properly read the article. I have now.
but it’s so exhausting seeing the same talking points of concern trolls like you who have heard on reddit and Lemmy …
I totally understand, and I do apologize for propagating this behaviour. My knowledge was outdated and that’s no one’s fault but my own.
All in all though, my whole point is honestly just that I don’t really trust any government to be totally truthful in regards to information they share, regardless of whether that’s the US, China, or even my home country, and my initial assumption was that this information was coming from them directly. Clearly, I was incorrect in this case, spouted some outdated shit confidently, and I apologize. I appreciate your patience.
I mean, googling that does not give the result you claimed it would. In fact, it talks more about how they opened up different types of camps instead
It talks about how they opened up prisons, which is exactly what this post takes into account. There are more people in prisons in the US than in the entirety of China.
You clearly have done 0 research on this topic, and until 5 minutes ago you believed that the reeducation camps were still open and ongoing, despite them closing years ago. Educate yourself on the conditions of the people who you pretend to care about, or stop with your concern trolling.
Real easy to get the numbers though
Interesting because the number comes from the Institute for Criminal Research and not China, but go on with your total and complete acceptance of US propaganda and unfound hatred of China.
Yes, because the ICR got their numbers from… going to each prison in china and getting their numbers then doing the math on each location to come up with…no they got them from the Chinese gov.
Internment camps…are not educational camps … they’re prisons. Uyghurs are a great example of prisoners not being labeled as prisoners.
…just realized you’re from .ml and this is memes on ml …fucking hell ml is a leaking shit hole.
We don’t believe our governments propaganda…but we also don’t believe the CCPs propaganda either.
We don’t believe our governments propaganda
You say, after regurgitating a bunch of your governments propaganda
fucking hell you’re a propagandized racist loser
Lol ok kid.
