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When we have female friends in common and suddenly it turns out they want to fuck her and they assume I’m only hanging out with her because I want to as well.
I have never had any men brag to me about their sexual encounters; generally the people I end up hanging out with don’t make sexist comments about women in public or anything like that. But this bullshit I’ve experienced on numerous occasions.
I guess it’s not really a “toxic trait” as much as “being toxic as fuck”.
The need to always seem manly around other men…in particular the choice of music. Ride in the car with certain people, they always have to be blasting hard rock or rap, or hard country depending on your location.
Meanwhile I’m over here enjoying switching between pop, rock, new wave, alt and even my playlist of exclusively Elton John, Phil Collins, Peter Gabriel and Billy Joel
Friend, there’s nothing wrong with enjoying extreme music. Its a bit weird when that’s all someone cares about, but many people have a healthy obsession with extreme music and you shouldn’t judge them for it.
The need to make everything into a competition or to one-up any story or anecdote.
I know plenty of women who do the same
Case in point.
Were talking about the fellas, why even bring this up besides as some weird defensive thing?
I’d say because if we’re trying to find things unique to guys it’s relevant to point out when it isn’t unique.
That’s the joke.
I hope.
Well, men do it better
BUT THE WAHMENS
I know more jk
That’s nothing!
Ever seen a group of guys stuck in a terminal one-downsmanship spiral of mutual unaccountability?
It’s epic bro. Totally blows the doors off your example.
That reminds me of a story, buddy and me fell overboard and when someone threw us a lifesaver he bet me I couldn’t lap the boat before getting rescued. Long story short we did six laps and we’re both dead now.
Oh yeah?? Well, when I fall overboard, I drown! (Because I can’t swim)
Ngl that’s pretty hardcore
I honestly don’t see them. If anything I feel men are being forced to be more fragile, just to be more accepted and this has only backfired. Now more and more men are getting depressed and dating less than ever.
Losing your sense of self in response to criticism is one mark of a man who’s been failed by his upbringing. Mistakes aren’t flaws if you learn from them, and so an identity can only become fragile if it is too brittle to endure change.
I agree with the effects you’re seeing but not the cause.
Women’s liberation changed how women are presented in society. It fundamentally changed what it means to be a woman.
Men never went through that. At the moment, we sorta can’t. If I were to create a “men’s liberation" group, it would quickly be taken over by Incels. Hard-core feminists would also stir up a fuss that this group was exclusionary to them. So we are kind of stuck.
Manhood needs to be redefined, because many of the classic male role definitions no longer apply. men can be sensitive where historically they’ve been expected to be stoic. Men can raise children when classically they have been breadwinners while the women raise children.
I think these are all great changes, but we haven’t been able to redefine manhood in the same way that the feminists were able to redefine womanhood.
I don’t have a good answer, we are somewhat handcuffed by the expectation to fulfil classic roles, along with new expectations to be more modern feminist-aware, sensitive men. The two are not compatible enough to make for a nice midpoint.
I don’t know if we have to make a societal decision to change the definition of manhood. I think just by accepting that men can be sensitive, and don’t have to be bread winners, more men will fill those roles (and not feel like they have to hide it). And as time goes on, the more men live like that, the more the definition of manhood will change in its own.
I’d argue that the definition of manhood is changing.
That men perform childcare tasks was unheard of two generations ago, especially with babies like changing diapers. You can be a man while maintaining a household when that was women’s work before.
We need to free ourselves from the shackles of roles-past.
That’s what feminism did.
So what if I’m not the breadwinner?
So what if I cry at sappy moments in movies?
So what if I need validation for my feelings?
Society is still okay with pushing this onto men, and it needs a moment of unity to say “this does not define me as a man”
There are some good men’s lib groups, but they take diligence so that they don’t fall to the incels. The one on reddit was actually pretty decent (prob still is but I haven’t checked in awhile), and there are a couple on lemmy but they’re not really active
I’ve yet to see any decent ones
Motherfucker it’s finally getting to be more acceptable to be vulnerable and it’s fucking REFRESHING. It took a lot of undoing the damage done by people like you who insist men stay strong at all times for me to finally accept my emotions and feel them. It’s sick. I’m not angry all the time any more. I feel like a real human being for once. Try it out.
Your insult was uncalled. I’m not talking with you, if that’s your “better you”
I honestly don’t see them. If anything I feel men are being forced to be more fragile, just to be more accepted and this has only backfired
Yeah, huge surprise you don’t see any of the toxic traits if you think men are being “forced to be more fragile” and that’s why you aren’t dating as much.
They are
Who is “they”
Illumimati.
Men were just as depressed before, the only difference is now we admit to it.
And there’s this whole thing with correlation and causation.
In the midst of a million different other potential causes, they are identifying “masculine fragility” as the big contributor to depression? Not missing data points, not social media, not the momentum of societal change in the last 30y, not socioeconomic factors, potential comorbidities as contributors, increasingly inflammatory politics, globalization as a whole, …
It’s so dumb to single this out. Sure some people need more confidence, but being “more masculine” sounds like the worst plan ever to gain healthy confidence. If you have problems with your confidence there’s usually other factors at play and the most efficient way to improve is to seek a therapist and sort your life or your brain out.
Same goes for dating by the way. A million factors that are potentially contributing to that one, and that’s a two player game, so even more factors to consider.
Agreed. Normally I just upvote, but your post deserves more
This comment, hell this whole thread, is enormously insightful and productive. It feels like a genuine discussion of men’s issues that isn’t on the offensive as it often feels when masculinity is the topic. Thank you and all commenters like you who took the time to make a good point.
It’s true in some circles.
Friend if that is your current experience with same sex relationships then maybe it might be time to branch out a little bit and start talking to new groups.
Ngl your current one, to me, sounds a little depressing
No one is forcing men to be more fragile.
Gonna take the hit on this one: a Joe Rogan bro. You probably know what I’m talking about, but to be more clear: aggro “alpha male,” gym rat or has a weirdly intense workout routine, takes a bunch of supplements, ready to believe anything pitched as “they don’t want you to know this,” weird diets of meat, “edgy” humor that’s more nodding and agreeing with prejudices than being funny, etc. Oh and listens to Joe Rogan willingly.
There’s nothing toxic about working out and getting strong, taking supplements etc. As long as you’re not harming yourself or other people then I see nothing wrong with it.
My dearly beloved ham casserole, I don’t going to the gym was the toxic trait here.
I wish someone would call me their dearly beloved ham casserole.
Heh I picked this habit up from a friend of mine who’s actually also on Lemmy, so there’s at least two of us here who use weird food-based insults (?). If you say something a bit silly in a comment you might still get your chance!
My dear lasagna.
Then why mention it?
Because it’s likely the first thing you notice and then you look for the harmful secondary traits.
Like a guy that has a really short fuse with himself. He might just have really high expectations for himself…… buuuuut once you notice that first trait, you keep your eyes out for the secondary ones, where he has a shorter fuse with others.
This guy takes care of himself …better keep an eye on 'em.
Because it’s part of the mix of traits that that kind of group tends to have. It’s not one of the toxic ones but its part of the ones used to identify them.
It’s a stereotype. It’s designed for mental shortcuts. But then it also casts a much wider net than it ought to and ends up harming innocent people.
It’s a stereotype
Without going too far down the slippery slope: stereotypes exist for a reason. Nissan driver? No insurance, late on car payment, dead-end job. Furry? Gay or bi, nerdy, works in IT or STEM. Boomer? Can’t operate a computer to save their life, is angry and scared about electric cars and renewable energy, their house cost $30k and they don’t realize why kids these days don’t have one.
There’s outliers, sure, but…
Someone thinking that you kind of look like a Joe Rogan bro until they get to know you is not what I would personally classify as harm.
Its a package deal with this personality type
It really isn’t. Lots of people who listen to Joe Rogan don’t work out. Lots of people who work out don’t listen to Joe Rogan.
I do neither, though I am planning to start working out to lose some body fat and try to strengthen my bad ankle.
whoosh.
The description wasn’t “any one of the above”, it was “all (or most) of the above”.
Customers hitting on people at their job.
Was eating lunch at a bar one time when three dude bros came in and started hitting on the bartender. They weren’t overly aggressive but it was obnoxious.
She handled it really well. She looked each of them in the eye, smiled, introduced herself and shook each of their hands in turn. She stated she was a professional and appreciated being treated like one. She was friendly but firm.
Shut them right the fuck up. They behaved much better after that.
This one’s a pet peeve, especially if the guy is with me.
IMO it’s one of the easiest ways to discover your friend likely has zero game with women who aren’t paid to be nice to them. But that also means it’s a good opportunity to help the friend figure out why they’re striking out all the time and maybe in the process help them be less of a bore.
Btw, if you’re a guy reading this and feel called out, you might be thinking
“What, so bartenders and waitresses are totally off-limits?”
Of course not. You can shoot your shot, just stay holstered until the bill is paid and/or they’re off the clock. (Unless they fire first, then good luck.)She has done countless subsequent women a huge favour.
Not a guy, but the one that really gets me is willfully incompetence - particularly around household or family chores (and the mental load associated with them).
Yeah, sorry but this one is just counterproductive. Guys just don’t give a fuck. No one is going around “ooh, what if I pretend I can’t do this task so she then has to do it”. That’s just patriarchy and gender roles for you. Maybe try to have a conversation about the subject of chores without sticking the “you’re evil” tag on the other person. Well, for anything in life really. Also mental load is there for anyone, I see no point in bringing it up in this context. The dudes have to deal with a fair share of mental load as well, specially with all the emotional neglect and immaturity.
What in the Sam Hill …
“Guys don’t give a fuck.”
That’s it. That’s the toxic trait right there.
This is why I think weaponized incompetence is a better term than willful incompetence.
I don’t think it’s even always intentional, conscious, or willful. It’s just, well, “not giving a fuck”, and getting away with it because women are always around to deal with their shit.
Agree about it not always being explicitly thought about. Weaponed also seemed to imply some sort of thought to me, but I couldn’t land on a good word.
Prepared to be roasted alive for this opinion but studies (undoubtedly of white, middle class, US undergrads) seem to indicate women find clutter and messes more psychologically distressing than men do.
I’m a man but I’ve had many deadbeat guys as roommates and I am definitely far more bothered by messes and clutter than they were so I kind of get this.
If you are the “mind it more” person, you will find yourself rage cleaning because the other person can wait you out as long as they want if they are taking you for granted and not concerned you’ll leave over this.
So there are two toxic traits here:
-
A willingness to wait out chores even if you know it’s angering people you are with.
-
A kind of willful blindness. “Honestly, I didn’t think it was that bad.”
The second one might be worse.
The first is excusable (plausible deniability) with the “men are oblivious” defense if the aggrieved party is not being overt in their request that a chore be done.
The second is a person (some women obviously do this, too) refusing to learn to empathize and recognize when things are getting to the point where it’s bothering the other person. From an interpersonal perspective this is probably more infuriating over the years.
I think you have a point, and it is indeed something different - if two people live together and simply have different preferences or care about different things, it’ll of course lead to some friction.
I think this goes both ways in most relationships. I keep bothering my girlfriend about the bathroom sink and the office desk we share; she complains about me keeping half dirty (half clean) clothes in a pile in the bedroom. That’s not what it’s about, though I think it can get easily confused.
It’s more about the “I don’t know how to use the washing machine/book bus tickets/change bags in the vacuum cleaner/cook a pie/change bedsheets/clean the toilet/make a vinegrette/change diapers/whatever”, where instead of an emphasis on learning the skill it’s only left to the other person.
It’s not all men, but it is common. I think it’s a systematic issue that men don’t carry the full responsibility for. They’re raised by mothers who do everything for them, and while their sisters are taught how to take care of themselves they are simply left to “be boys”. And then they go out in the world and find a woman who can effectively replace their mothers.
It’s the kind of guys who move away from home but keep going back to their mothers whenever they need laundry done.
The second is
a personTWO PEOPLE refusing to learn to empathize and recognize when things are getting to the point where it’s bothering the other person.ftfy. I’m sick of society always thinking that men have to learn how to be cleaner. Maybe women should learn how to not freak out over a little mess sometimes.
The onus should not be 100% on men to change. It should be a compromise, and part of it is women learning to relax and undo the ingrained “everything must look perfect” toxic baggage that they have, just as much as men need to learn not to live in a pigsty just because mom isn’t around to clean up after you.
I think the first trait is worse than the second. Waiting to do a chore knowing (1) it needs to be done, and (2) the other person will do it if you hold out long enough is such a jerk move. Although the second isn’t awesome either. I think it is safe to say, don’t do either of these things.
-
“Guys don’t give a fuck.”
That’s it. That’s the toxic trait right there.
I worry you may be misinterpreting the phrase in its particular context, and I’d hate to see that happen.
Kudos for weaving in the toxic trait of infantilizing women.
I work from home so I typically do the majority of the cleaning; I don’t mind because I’m a bit of a clean freak anyway.
What I found odd is when my wife’s family from Mexico were visiting she turned into a maid and would shoo me away from things like washing a single dish (for example).
Not sure if it was cultural or what but it definitely threw me off — I don’t want her family thinking I’m making her do everything all the time.
Oh, that’s interesting. Could be a family thing. Could also be just a good host thing.
100% a cultural thing. Depending on what part of Mexico they’re from, she may not want them to know that you do any chores. If a woman can’t handle all of the chores herself, it’s seen as a failing.
Super fucked up, but Latin America is in fact super fucked up.
It’s called “brokedishing” and choosing the right dish to break is an art form.
Damn, that’s way catchier than weaponized incompetence.
Seeing regular masculinity as toxic. Just out right judging people for not being more feminine and doing normal guy stuff.
Like bunch of guys joking around having fun. "Oh that’s toxic masculinity.
Yeah, I kind of agree. Toxic masculinity is a thing, but it doesn’t mean all masculinity is automatically toxic.
Then again, usually when I’m hanging out with guys and the testosterone level runs a bit high, someone will crack a joke about it and we’ll laugh at ourselves.
I think having a fragile ego and not being able to joke about yourself and/or your masculinity probably does make it on in the toxic list.
Most of the people I work with these days have fragile egos. It’s a big problem.
This is a pattern I’ve seen repeatedly.
Guys find themselves desperate to get laid, and that desperation comes across in all of their interactions with women, who don’t like feeling that they’re being treated like a vending machine, which leads to the guy being rejected for reasons that he doesn’t entirely understand.
He gets in a relationship with someone, finally, and everything is great for a while. Then he realizes that women are talking and flirting with him more than they ever have before, and isn’t sure why, but he enjoys it. He doesn’t understand that, because he is in a relationship, he has stopped being desperate and weird, and is now actually having real conversations with women about mutually interesting topics.
Surrounded by women that are (seemingly) available, he either breaks up with his SO, asks for some sort of open arrangement, or tries to cheat. Unfortunately, for reasons that he still doesn’t understand, as soon as he’s available for sex, women start being turned off by him again (if not to quite the degree they were before) and, again, he finds it difficult to get laid.
From here, guys often fall into some incel-style evolutionary psychology explanation for things, regularly cheat on everyone that they’re with, or gradually becomes aware of the pattern.
If they become aware of the pattern, they can begin to manage it and reduce the desperate, salesman vibe that they give off. As they become more confident and relaxed, it becomes clear to women that they’re perfectly comfortable going home alone or just being friends, which allows them to have more meaningful relationships and, incidentally, more sex with people they like.
Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED Talk on the origin and mating behavior of the involuntarily celibate.
Problem # 2,846 that would be solved if everyone wasn’t so hung up on monogamy
With polyamory, Brokeback Mountain is a light hearted comedy about some queer friends who like to escape to the woods sometimes.
I think you’re confusing incels with dudebros
Off the top of my head: the guy I recently saw get out of his car in stopped traffic banging on another driver’s window screaming “you almost hit me motherfucker!”
I was sat there thinking “almost?” Not that it’s excusable in any case but imagine losing it because someone almost hit you. Mistakes happen bro, be happy nothing serious happened.
I guess it depends on how stupid the almost is Where I live most people can’t drive well at all and honestly I wish someone would do this
The only issue is most people also have guns where I live
Thinking that just because they can fight that means they win any argument they’re in.
My current boss is an ex mma fighter and does this literally ask the time. You’ll bring up a concern about something he’s doing and he’ll shut you down and if you persist he tries to intimidate you by reminding you of his size and fighting history.
Micromanagement and the need to take credit for work other people do. Of all the incompetent bosses I’ve had over the years, micromanagers are the worst and all of the micromanagers for whom I’ve worked have been men.
It’s like, dude, you hired me because I know more about doing this task than other people (including you). Stop hovering over me, when I need your input I’ll come get you. Just let me fucking cook. I know what I’m talking about and what I’m going… you employ me specifically because I know what I’m talking about and what I’m doing.
I guess their thought process goes: if I’m not hovering over this person at all times, the company might figure out I don’t know 100% of 100% of everything my employees do day to day… even though that’s insane. What company would require a manager to know absolutely everything about how their employees do their jobs; a manager obviously shouldn’t be completely in the dark about operations but also it’s crazy to think they’d want them to be an expert on everything.
Making fun of people for admitting they don’t know things.
I wish more guys just said they didn’t know something instead of clearly not knowing what they’re talking about and running their mouth based on vibes
A friend of mine keeps doing this. He’ll pretend to be an expert of fucking anything, and you can generally tell immediately that he doesn’t know shit. When he goes on about things that I actually do know things about it’s unbearable, and of course his ego is too fragile to handle being told he’s wrong.
We have a lot of impressive common friends with awesome general knowledge, and I frequently wonder how the hell we have the patience to keep him around. My general knowledge is shite, but at least I’m quite open about being ignorant.
He’s hyper sensitive about social situations, yet introducing him to new people is almost always embarrassing.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, he is a professional psychologist.
Wait what’s wrong with psychologists? I respect them for just not killing themselves from having to deal with other people’s psychological problems.
Yeah, it’s an important and challenging job, and I have several friends who are psychologist.
It is, however, a bit of a stereotype that a lot of people who choose to become psychologists are often to some degree themselves viable clients. Perhaps wanting to understand themselves is a motivation to study it in the first place.
They can still do an amazing job, but I think a lot of psychologist find themselves in a Pagliacci situation where they can help anyone but themselves.
I have a friend like this but he’s fortunately self aware enough to confess that he just like lecturing when you call him on something. It’s almost endearing
Your friend is Jordan Peterson
Thank god he is guaranteed to hate Jordan Peterson - he has redeeming qualities as well. But reading back my comment it’s uncanny how much it sounds like him.
I know one of these. He’s extremely insecure and has other issues but he will talk about ANYTHING as if he were an expert
In eighth grade I got into an argument on the bus, precursor to the Internet, with a kid about my ignorance of sex. He drew a picture of a diaphragm and ridiculed me for not knowing what it was.
Some guys never grow out of The Badass Persona that a lot of teenagers like to portray. It’s extremely annoying from a guy in his 50’s.
Define badass because I’m a very stoic person outside of my job and people always call me a hard ass and I don’t know how to feel about it.
It means a dude who is a loudmouth, likes to threaten people, and is a bully to compensate for an inferiority complex. A real asshole.
Ah good then I’m no longer worried that people are insulting me.
Turning every minor thing into a competition.
Even conversations.
