What do you think?
They don’t have language, so they can’t have the internal dialogue.
But can they have imagination? Since many animals have dreams, then why not?
deleted by creator
My dog’s would often woof and move their paws on their dreams.
Wait, you have a little voice in your head??
Yeah you know like the evil and the angel of the cartoons…
Not sure if meta or real.
Probably not expressed as a voice, but definitely thinking.
One of our cats would regularly get “that look” on her face and we’d tell her “Lorelei! Stop thinking evil thoughts!” then she’d go on a tear. Clearly plotting what she was going to do.
I think that it’s on a sliding scale. Some animals clearly have some kind of inner thought process, and clearly have their own personalities. Others not as much. I know that with cats, for instance, there are tools you can use that allow cats to communicate certain concepts to people, stings of buttons that are each linked to a discrete word. Cats can learn to string button presses together to ‘say’ things to their keepers. (Apparently the most common thing they ask for is clean water, so clean your cat’s water daily.) That may not be evidence of “thought” in the way that you’re thinking about it, but there’s clearly some form of cognition going on there.
clean water
I used to have a cat who did this. He would lead me to the bathroom, jump into the tub, and then wait patiently until I turned on the bath faucet – just a trickle!
My cat understands a “now” “later” type of situation and strings actions with it. For instance “now play later food”.
Edit: I taught him buttons and those are some of the choices
Humans are animals.
True though they may be, there’s no benefit to mentioning that in this situation.
I was making the point on the notion that we might be alone in that vs animals. If you don’t distinguish man from other animals, why would you assume that they couldn’t?
they
… So what sort of non-human are you? 🧐
He’s a cat.
Dogs dream, and dreams are just thoughts.
How do you know other humans have thoughts? There is no way of measuring it, and there is no way to tell if someone is lying about it. You could measure brain activity. But There is no need for brain activity to be accompanied by experience. There is no law of nature that says that electrical signals are accompanied by experience or thoughts. There is also no way to tell the difference between a millimeter cube of brain from any animal. So if you believe that brain activity is represented by thoughts, then there is absolutely no way to draw an arbitrary line between humans and animals.
So i don’t even think it’s a question.
Have you ever been close to a cat? I cant believe they can be wacky like this without some sort of inner monologue and intention.
So many people making stuff up they have no way of actually knowing in this comment section. No wonder religion is so widespread!
The true answer, unsatisfying as it may be, is that we have no way of knowing the subjective internal experience (often referred to as ‘consciousness’) of other humans, let alone other animals. For all we can know, a rock could have thoughts. We really, for now at least, can’t know. Unfortunately.
I think so. I have parrots who are at a 4 year old human’s intelligence level. They do things they know they shouldn’t and wait for me to turn my back, it’s like they know they shouldn’t but have an intrusive thought and act on it. Of course, once I say “excuse me…” With the dad tone, they fly to their cages and pretend they did nothing. To me that takes thought and reasoning, desire, planning, action, etc. On their part.
I don’t think they have an internal monologue. I think they just react to their senses.
But they can make plans, they have goal-oriented behavior that drives them to seek out a goal that exists beyond their senses. If I leave the house through the front door without giving my dog his customary distraction, he goes out the back door and around the side because he knows that, if I haven’t properly secured the fence, he can get out through the fence to reach me. Nothing about that involves his senses, it’s just something he’s figured out.
Now, I doubt any part of that involves an internal monologue because they don’t use language (even though they can, in fact, understand limited language). If they don’t use it themselves, they probably don’t figure things out in their heads that way, it simply wouldn’t be very efficient. But they certainly possess more complex internal cognition than just “I smell food” or whatever.
When I solve the kinds of problems that animals have been shown to be able to solve, there’s no inner vocalization. I solve those problems using visual simulations in my head. I use virtual hands more than I use a virtual voice to solve such things.
I’m autistic.
To be honest, that’s me too! (And I also might be autistic.) But I’m capable of thinking things out verbally, something I do particularly in regard to programming and architecture problems, or figuring out what to say to someone else. So it’s a tool that’s available to me. I don’t think it’s available to my dog, but I’ll bet he’s doing virtual paws.
My cat has thoughts. They’re usually “today I feel like biting my owner because it’s a load of fun”
This video perfectly describes my cat… except the actual fur color. Because he’s a snowshoe, not… whatever kind of cat species is in this video.
Not everyone has a voice in their head. Do you have a cat? Cats have thoughts. Unfortunately that thought is sometimes, “eff you, human!”
What do you mean about “not everyone has a voice in their head”? I have one… I would like to research more about this topic.
I am curious how many people don’t have an inner monologue, but there are a few articles on the subject. Here’s one at random.>
Thx for the info…
There are also people who are unable to see images in their mind. In case you want to go further down the rabbit hole.
Do you know if it’s some kind of mental illness? I mean some kind of human abnormality, or do you believe there are a lot of people like that?
My MIL and to some extent my husband are like that. It was painful discussing design plans with them when we reno’d our kitchen. I just started doing mood boards so they could see what I had in my head that I wanted it to look like.
I’m terrible at decorating!! After 20+ years in my house most of my walls have pictures that are sentimental to me but not visually connected in any way.
My theory is that there’s no such thing as neurotypical.
Neurotypical is just the statistical average of all the different ways we’re fucked in the head.
i.e. Half have anxiety, the other half have depression and we just assume normal is somewhere in the middle.
We function just fine. Seeing images or hearing voices in your mind is not required for any task I’m aware of.
There are a lot of us.
My cognition is mixed. Verbal inner monologue is going most of the time when I’m just thinking about routine stuff. But if I’m “in the flow zone” working on a project or playing music or something like that, the little “voice in my head” vanishes completely and that’s when I’m the happiest. I suspect most people can relate to those modes.
That’s relatable to me at least. And often music is playing my my head in the place of my inner voice.
Agreed, now that I think about it. It’s definitely better to be in the zone. If I’m monologuing I think it might signify that I’m having trouble with something, but I don’t necessarily enjoy being that aware of my own self.
What do you mean about “not everyone has a voice in their head”?
Well, what do you think it means?
I believe it would be interesting to talk about this with someone wo inner monologue.
I do not have an internal monologue.
This has been at least discussed/studied before but I don’t know if there has been any sort of formal poll to find a rate between those that do and those that don’t.
I have to ask - in what way do you think about stuff? Especially whem you need to be mindful of a process or remember something?
Mine is just chunks of info or ideas. My coworkers think this is why i talk a lot unfiltered- because i don’t hear how it will sound it in my head before it comes out of my mouth. There’s a little test online that was going around for awhile where you try to visualize a red star and grade it 1-5.
I still think in words and images, but there is no voice.
Something else that came up in previous discussions. I remember emotional response more than specific things. For example, my wife can remember what we wore, what we ate, and other specifics, of a date we had years ago. I barely remember even the location, but I can easily recall that I was happy about the date, but there was some mild frustration early on, something about the restaurant, but then feeling better about it later.
I say this and my wife says, “Oh yeah, we were annoyed because we had reservations but still had to wait 20 minutes, but then we were given an appetizer.”
However, before my comments, she couldn’t recall if we liked the place or not.
I’ll remember if I liked someone, but not why or even their name.
There are some studies. I don’t remember the specifics but it’s something like 50/50 on hearing and seeing and about 20 percent do neither. I’m sure those numbers are off, but that’s vaguely what i remember reading.
What do you mean by seeing? Like they don’t see images in their mind?
Some people do. Many of us don’t.
We don’t.
Many of us don’t. Many of us also don’t see images in our minds.
One of My strongest memories is watching a documentary where they claimed dogs don’t deam, and my dogs directly in front of the TV making little sleep barks and moving legs deep into some dream.
Let’s be honest we are animals and the rest aren’t all that far behind us.
I can tell that even my pet gerbils have dreams. Man I’d love to know what they’re dreaming of. They’ve effectively spent their entire lives inside that glass terrarium so I can’t imagine there being a huge variety of novel experiences to dream of.
Yeah I understand but I’m talking about an inner monologue, not about dreaming…
Are we even sure everyone has one of those? Not everyone has a mind’s eye.
Not everyone has an inner monologue
What’s driving me wild about these claims is I DON’T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK PEOPLE EVEN MEAN with “inner monologue”. And none of those stupid articles seems to bother to first and foremost try to define what the fuck they are writing about. A definition of the word…
It’s like talking to yourself, but not vocalizing it. At least that’s how I understand it
I still don’t know whether that means my absolutely everyday way to think the words I am typing right now, or if some people can actually hear their “inner voice” like in a movie voiceover when the protagonists thoughts are narrated in the protagonist’s voice. Or do people have a “dialogue” in their heads? I mean that never occurred to me because at least that part of "mono"logue is clear…
Pretty much the inner voice thing. Like you are talking yourself through what you are doing, commenting internally on what you see and stuff.
Apparently some people actually hear a voice and see things in their mind.
Your comment seems to imply that you don’t believe this is the default?
Something that I think trips people up when trying to understand what it’s like to have an inner monologue or to visualize things in your mind is that we don’t really have better words for the experience.
I have an inner monologue, and saying that I “hear” a voice in my head when I’m thinking about something isn’t exactly the way I would choose to describe it, there’s just no simpler way to really put it.
It’s sort of like there are words “happening” in my head. As I think through something my brain is putting the thoughts and concepts together with words describing those thoughts. If I’m, for example, deciding what color to paint something, while I’m thinking through the possibilities, my brain is just sort of conjuring up sentences that match my thoughts like “if I paint it red, it will look funny, so I’ll paint it blue instead, yeah, that’s what I’ll do, alright gotta go to the store for blue paint.” There’s not a literal voice making noises in my head that I hear the same way I hear someone standing in front of me talking, but I intuitively know what the voice speaking those imaginary words would sound like, and the thoughts and ideas I have that way kind of get processed in my brain in a similar way to how it would absorb ideas from someone explaining something to me verbally.
Similarly when I say I can “see” something in my head, if I picture, let’s say a car, there’s not a literal car floating in my visual field somewhere like some kind of voluntary hallucination. It’s sort of like having a complete intuitive understanding of exactly what that car looks like, you know what it looks like from all angles, with the doors open and closed, what it looks like in motion and parked, etc. without actually having to go look at it, open the doors, see it being driven around, etc. and all of that information is getting processed though the same or similar parts of my brain that would process actually looking at the car.
I like to use the analogy of your brain as a computer. When you’re actually hearing or seeing something it’s like you have a microphone or webcam pointed at something feeding into the computer, and having it output right to the monitor.
If, instead, you used your computer to run a super detailed 3d simulation of a car, the end result would look much the same with a car driving on your monitor and the accompanying sounds coming out of your speakers. Except your brain isn’t actually putting those images and sounds on-screen, it’s keeping that window minimized and sounds muted on that app. It’s still doing all of the processing, rendering, encoding, etc. it would have to do to output those images and sounds, it knows what the car is doing in that simulation as long as it’s running and what it would look and sound like, it’s just not outputting that information onto the screen. And since your brain is the computer that’s running the simulation, it’s not terribly important that it’s not being displayed anywhere because you still just know what that simulation looks and sounds like.
Everyone’s brain is wired a little differently and of course I can only try to explain my own personal experience with how my brain works, but overall I find that this sort of explanation tends to ring pretty true for people who do have an internal monologue and don’t have aphantasia.
And of course there’s probably a pretty wide spectrum of how people actually experience this, how detailed the images, sounds, and words in their head can be and what they’re able to do with them.
And like I touched on a little at the beginning, there’s the language aspect. I personally wouldn’t really choose to describe these things as “seeing” and “hearing,” I just don’t have a better word for them. Others may find that other terms to describe the same thing just feel better and make more sense to them.
Kind of like how we’ve collectively agreed that chili peppers are “hot” and “burn” your mouth. Eating some spicy food doesn’t really feel the same as if you burned your mouth drinking coffee that is too hot or something, but it does activate some similar kinds of nerves and parts of your brain and such and the experiences are somewhat similar, so we’ve just kind of decided that terms like “hot” and “burning” are close enough.
But if you got someone who had no prior knowledge of hot peppers and had them eat one, it’s possible that they might come up with different words to describe what they experience. Maybe instead of saying that it “burns” they might say that it “itches,” “tingles,” “hurts,” etc. and they wouldn’t be wrong, those words just felt the most right to them to describe their experience.
In the case of peppers, that’s something we can easily reach a common understanding of. We can just tell them “we call that sensation burning” and anyone who doesn’t know what it feels like can just take a bite of a jalapeno and then we’re all on the same page.
Unfortunately when we’re talking about how we think and process information, we can never really be sure if we’re experiencing the same thing. We can’t just have them take a bite out of our inner monologue like they can with a jalapeno so we can ask them “is this what thinking is like for you?” We just have to use our words to describe it, and hope that they also landed on “burning” to describe it instead of “itching”
I’m not saying that all people have what I would describe as an inner monologue, or the ability to picture things in their head and just don’t realize it, I’m quite certain that some people don’t experience the world that way. I think there’s probably some cases where people do and don’t realize it because of how others explain it, but mostly I think there’s just a gap in our language that makes it hard to explain what we’re experiencing to people whose brains don’t work that way. I’m kind of curious if there’s another language that does make a better distinction between actually hearing/seeing things and having an internal monologue or “hearing”/“seeing” things in your mind and how that affects these sorts of conversations among those people.
Wow. I was just thinking how best to describe my “inner monologue,” and the fact that it’s not really seeing and hearing. But now I don’t have to because you nailed it. I want to subscribe to your blog. Also, instead of “burning” I say we change the word for jalapeño taste to “spicification.” “OMG this pepper! My mouth is spicified!”
instead, you used your computer to run a super detailed 3d simulation of a car, the end result would look much the same with a car driving on your monitor and the accompanying sounds coming out of your speakers. Except your brain isn’t actually putting those images and sounds on-screen, it’s keeping that window minimized and sounds muted on that app
I’m curious, what is your experience with sound generally? Because I do not identify with my brain muting apps but it’s mainly music so I don’t really mind. If a song is in your head are you aware of the song or is it closer to hearing artists’ voice/instruments?
Dreaming definetly involves quite deep thoughts imo.
I just found it absolutely mad these science guys on TV where claiming dogs don’t dream, I mean it’s obviously nonsense to anyone who has ever had a dog how the hell do they get to their nonsense conclusions
Based on watching my Borzoi decide whether or not to sneak into the kitchen, I’d say yes.
