• Wilco@lemm.eeEnglish
    0·
    10 days ago

    Spoiler: They do need a warrant.

    Also “you are tresspassed” is a magical phrase that turns ICE agents into criminals and armed ICE agents into armed criminals that you can pull a weapon on.

    • floo@retrolemmy.comEnglish
      0·
      9 days ago

      Spoiler: They do need a warrant.

      Oh yes, they do. Absolutely. They may do whatever they were gonna do, regardless, but standing up for your own rights and the rights of others helps to guarantee them all the way out.

      And, sometimes, all it takes is someone willing to stand up and cry the actions of the state

    • Diplomjodler@lemmy.world
      0·
      9 days ago

      Funnily enough the “second amendment” crowd has been completely silent about all this shit. But people really have to use those stand your ground laws.

      • BigxRedxHusker@midwest.social
        0·
        9 days ago

        I’ve given up on humanity after the racist Karen in Minneapolis raised a shitload of money off of a Christian based fundraising website while pretending to be the victim of calling a 5 year old racial slurs.

        Like we have a problem. Society preinternet didn’t have this problem, society after internet didn’t have this problem you could be called a dick with no recourse.

        Once society figured out you can just make money on being a racist asshole and be crowd funded for it, that’s when society went to shit

        • Septimaeus@infosec.pub
          0·
          9 days ago

          I saw that headline a few days ago. Was that all it took to make you give up on humanity? Trying to understand.

            • Septimaeus@infosec.pub
              0·
              9 days ago

              Understood. It’s a shame to lose you at the start of the fight, but get what you need to hang on and recover.

              One strategy I’ve found helpful is taking little breaks from political news and spending time with those around you. It’s been a good antidote for the despair of the news cycle.

              And if you need someone to talk to I’m here.

              • BigxRedxHusker@midwest.social
                0·
                9 days ago

                I’ve taken a big step back from most apps and social media in general, unless I’m playing Xbox online for 2 hours after 10p’m hardly using the Internet for anything else. .

                Plus just got done with daughters club volleyball, now it’s onto softball season… working with her on pitching have to use a lot of YouTube for that because I don’t know how to pitch fast softball. So we’re both sort of learning as we go.

                She’s got a Canon for a arm. Like has made my hand hurt on multiple occasions from 40 feet for only being 11. Ive been trying to teach accuracy over speed and a actual coach said not to do that. If they have natural speed. Let them pitch fast and ccuracy will come later.

                She’s improved. I’d say 3/10 are strikes, 5/10 will probably get someone to swing at. The other two watch your shins or head 😅. Or in my case sitting on a 5 gallon bucket, the family jewelry. Have had a few close calls

                • Septimaeus@infosec.pub
                  0·
                  9 days ago

                  Sorry for delay. Had to take care of a few things offline.

                  step back from social media

                  That’s pretty huge. Everyone I’ve known who did that said it improved their life and mental health in lots of ways, and the harder their exit the more enthusiastic they were. Tried it myself back in 2012, and stuff probably wasn’t even as bad back then, but deleting google facebook twitter snap etc really did help me build better relationships and enjoy life more. I still text/chat people and use some forums like lemmy but never have to worry about an algorithm trying to fuck with my head lol

                  daughter mobile softball turret

                  That is wonderful! While I don’t have kids, I know the feeling of helping young people discover things they’re good at and it’s deeply gratifying. Really cool that you’re there to practice with her too. Having a parent who’s there isn’t a given yet helps so much with basically everything.

                  3/10 strikes 5/10 swing

                  From what I understand of baseball rules, that would mean like 8/10 over the plate or close enough for the hitter to attempt? 80% success sounds damn good for a new player. Is it possible she has some natural athleticism and/or hand-eye coordination?

                  learning together

                  Ditto re: softball knowledge; could only guess where to begin. Did see a few rounds of a softball game at a pub once and noticed the pitcher would deliberately bounce the ball, which I thought wasn’t a thing in regular baseball. Is this something pitchers in her league practice, like a type of pitch?

              • DontMakeMoreBabies@piefed.socialEnglish
                0·
                9 days ago

                Our species is trash - it has nothing to do with the news cycle. There are just too many fucking stupid people that are being allowed to shit out legions of children.

                I sincerely wish there was a virus that killed people who were “too dumb.” It’d be much more peaceful…

                #ThanosWasOntoSomething

                • Septimaeus@infosec.pub
                  0·
                  9 days ago

                  #HeWasntAndYouKnowIt

                  The solution to ignorance is knowledge, not eugenics. Also get your ass into therapy before hate consumes you.

      • BetaBlake@lemmy.world
        0·
        9 days ago

        Most of the second amendment crowd have a “daddy” fetish and want to be ruled by a strongman figure. Mostly cuckish cowards

        • timbuck2themoon@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          0·
          9 days ago

          That and the 2a isn’t necessary for resistance. Been done in places without it obviously.

          And yes, seems most of them seem quite happy with the current situation. Funny that.

          • Cethin@lemmy.zipEnglish
            0·
            9 days ago

            Yep. The common myth is that 2A is for defence against tyranny, but it’s clearly about having people armed and trained to be ready to fight if they’re needed against an invading nation. That’s what the military was in the day: militias, not standing armies.

            2A is broken and shouldn’t apply to the modern day, but that doesn’t really matter. It doesn’t matter why we are allowed to have weapons, just that we are and we should defend against those trying to intrude on the rights of others.

            • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
              0·
              9 days ago

              Militia is army in Latin, but in the day it already meant how people generally understand it now.

              Also you are notoriously wrong about “not standing armies”, people were recruited and served for many years. Of course militaries were scaled up and down depending if it was wartime. Mandatory conscription and mobilization were a new tendency that, in some sense, led to WWI.

              I think I want to play “Victoria” again.

              2A is broken and shouldn’t apply to the modern day, but that doesn’t really matter.

              Yes! Glad you understand that.

              There’s a dialectic law with constitutional rights - if they are not on paper, then someone might say they don’t exist. If they are on paper, then someone might say they are given by that paper and exactly as much as written and intended.

              Rights just exist, they are a transcendent object that can’t be defined or limited by laws.

              I’ve been called a sovcit for saying that, despite it being pretty logical that if rights are limited and defined by law, then over time you’ll have fewer and fewer rights and not vice versa.

              • jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
                0·
                8 days ago

                Rights just exist, they are a transcendent object that can’t be defined or limited by laws.

                I don’t think rights exist in any meaningful way unless enforced / people agree to follow them. They’re just norms in a nicer suit. There’s no external referee that’s going to stop the game because “your rights are being violated”.

      • shalafi@lemmy.worldEnglish
        0·
        9 days ago

        I’m not a big 2A guy, but I’m more than well armed and practiced, and I haven’t shut up about shooting anyone attempting these kidnappings.

      • Wilco@lemm.eeEnglish
        0·
        9 days ago

        Hmm, I would check your local law. That is not how it generally works. If someone is on your property and you tell them to leave and that they are trespassed, then they have to leave. Failure to leave is almost always a crime in progress.

      • kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world
        0·
        9 days ago

        Only law enforcement can enforce the trespass. But you are trespassed when informed by a person with authority over the property that your presence is not welcome there. If they fail to leave, you can follow up in the courts.

    • SabinStargem@lemmy.todayEnglish
      0·
      9 days ago

      It is exactly the same power that Trump uses: the willingness to assert yourself. We need more people to not comply, especially in advance.

  • CocaineShrimp@lemm.eeEnglish
    0·
    10 days ago

    I don’t think legitimate ICE agents would have backed down. Sounds like an attempted kidnapping…

    • conditional_soup@lemm.ee
      0·
      9 days ago

      They more than likely were with ICE. The agency has massively and rapidly expanded its enforcement personnel, and has done so in a haphazard way that has (deliberately) not given them an opportunity to properly train personnel up on procedures and rules and stuff. Nobody who wants to do good in the world is going to work for ICE right now. So, they’ve basically just done a presto gestapo, and a lot of times these guys really are just out there doing the sloppiest, shittiest, and most bully-like law enforcement you could possibly conceive of. I know where I’m posting this, I know what we all generally think of cops here, the current state of ice is about ten rungs down from that. We’re talking real amateur hour shit, and they’ll get away with it if people let them.

      The good news is that apparently none of these fucking jokers seem to know or care how to cross t’s and dot i’s. You absolutely can send them packing, just like these folks did, and if they don’t leave, then call your local sheriff’s office or police dept. This is really dependent on your area, metro PD tend to be stocked full of major league assholes, but my local PD is actually pretty chill and has a good working relationship with the community; in my experience, sheriff’s deputies tend to be people who got into law enforcement because they’re true believers in the ideals of law enforcement (protecting life and property, accountability, etc) and constitutional justice, not because they want to flex on minorities. YMMV.

      But if you think you can trust one of your local law enforcement agencies, absolutely call up 911 and tell them that you’ve got some people here that are trespassing (they’ve been told to leave and aren’t), seem to be impersonating law enforcement (since they won’t provide proof of ID), and you’re worried that they’re trying to kidnap someone, that you think these people are an imminent threat to your life or someone else’s. That’ll generally get the cops out there in a hurry, and they will likely be not very happy at all that ICE is out here putting on a fucking circus. That, or the agents will hear you and fucking split so that they don’t get clowned on by local law enforcement. There have been plenty of instances of federal agents getting arrested while fucking around; mind you, they’re almost never charged, but nobody walks away from that particularly happy.

      • PolarKraken@sh.itjust.works
        0·
        9 days ago

        Great advice. And anyone in authority at a place of employment that might be targeted should know exactly how they intend to respond, meaning they must plan for it. As soon as the thugs make themselves known, execute the plan - get one person on 911 doing what you said, while another confronts them directly to try to force them to leave.

        I wonder if there are any resources giving concrete advice on what to do in these scenarios? Kind of like how we have great standard advice from various law professionals, etc., about what to do and not do when detained by police.

        • SabinStargem@lemmy.todayEnglish
          0·
          9 days ago

          I think we will need a phone app that modifies the emergency function:

          1: When the police are called, the recording function turns on. 2: The ACLU/legal services of choice are given the recording, live, without interfering with the current call. 3: ICE Spotting apps are given your current location, as are designated people in your contact list.

          In effect, this allows you to uphold your legal rights, since ICE would likely break your phone when they begin trafficking people, which may include you. Plus, people in the area might be alerted to the presence of ICE, and begin gathering. We should use the bee’s approach and swarm the bastards. Heat is the great weakness of ICE and bullies alike.

          • PolarKraken@sh.itjust.works
            0·
            9 days ago

            This is a fantastic idea. To be clear, anyone working on such a thing will almost certainly gain the administration’s attention, which of course is extremely dangerous. But yes, this should exist!

        • grysbok@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish
          0·
          9 days ago

          That’s one thing my campus has done decently–I know that to do if ICE shows up.

          1. they’re not allowed to just walk in to non-public areas
          2. we call campus police (whose main jobs seems to be keeping students safe and keeping campus out of the news). Annoyingly, I work in a public building (the library) but my office is private, big, and has a lock on the door. I’m well stocked up in case of a shelter-in-place situation and I’m happy to wait until campus police shows up.
            • grysbok@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish
              0·
              9 days ago

              Thanks. It helps that I’m white enough I glow in the dark. My big worry is that many of my students might be first- and second-generation immigrants from south of the USA and I don’t want them to have to deal with this bullshit.

              (I say “might be” because I don’t know anyone’s immigration status and even if I did no I don’t.)

        • conditional_soup@lemm.ee
          0·
          9 days ago

          Sound advice. I know that after a bunch of locals voiced concern about it, our chief said that they are absolutely not working with ICE, and their duty is to serving the whole community first and foremost.

    • LandedGentry@lemmy.zipEnglish
      0·
      10 days ago

      If they’re operating flagrantly outside the law they usually will. Once they have access, it’s their word against yours. Especially now that agencies like the DEA are dropping body cams.

      • barsoap@lemm.ee
        0·
        9 days ago

        Damn hack journalists. The quote is from Petra Kelly (page 768, 82 in pdf) founding member of the German Greens:

        But when the laws of the state are in open rebellion against divine law, … then resistance is a duty, but obedience is a crime.

        …she was dishing it out with the CDU that’s why she quoted a Pope, in particular Pope Leo XIII:

        1. But, if the laws of the State are manifestly at variance with the divine law, containing enactments hurtful to the Church, or conveying injunctions adverse to the duties imposed by religion, or if they violate in the person of the supreme Pontiff the authority of Jesus Christ, then, truly, to resist becomes a positive duty, to obey, a crime

        It then percolated through general Green-adjacent political spheres as a slogan and became “Wenn Unrecht zu Recht wird, dann wird Widerstand zur Pflicht”, “When injustice becomes law, then resistance becomes duty”, losing the “and obedience a crime” part. Usually attributed to Brecht, who probably wouldn’t mind, totally something he’d say. “I can’t eat enough for as much as I want to barf” isn’t Brecht, either, it’s Dürrenmatt. Actual Brecht quotes include “Who does not know the truth is just an idiot, but who knows the truth and calls it a lie is a criminal” as well as “First comes fodder, then morals”. Also, movie recommendation.

        • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
          0·
          9 days ago

          In any case, a good rule.

          Try telling it to people with relatives\connections behind government desks, even small ones. They immediately either have this absent look as if they are calculating with effort how to best hurt you, or the absolutely hateful look as if no piece of you should exist.

          That kind of reaction (EDIT: being so prevalent among that group of people) alone hints that today’s state bureaucracies have overstayed their welcome.

  • floo@retrolemmy.comEnglish
    0·
    10 days ago

    Bullies melt when faced with even the tiniest bit of resistance. Because they are fucking cowards. All bullies are fucking cowards.

    They know what they’re doing is illegal, and they only get away with it because some people let them. Don’t be one of those people. When you see your rights being violated, resist! When you see the rights of others, being violated, resist then too!

    The actions of the manager of the restaurant Chang Chang were not only American, they were patriotic.

    • Denjin@lemmings.world
      0·
      9 days ago

      Isn’t this the exact reason Americans have so many guns, to oppose tyranny at the hands of the state? Funny how the most vehemently anti-gun control people are the same ones clapping and cheering as government thugs bundle people into detention centers without warrants.

      • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
        0·
        9 days ago

        Sometimes not doing it may cost you. When the society is in terminal stage, that is.

        When everyone does “preemptive obedience”, just not doing it and politely asking “ok, but who you are, please provide some identification and such, or at least explain me how you are different from a random person demanding it, I don’t know who you are and why are you demanding this” might cause dangerous levels of fury in someone who is not a random person, unfortunately, just treats a request for their correct identification (which they would be able to provide) and reasons as an insult.

        To not let it reach that level, you shouldn’t, yes.

        Actually maybe we will have a period of history when Germans save everyone from tyranny. I’ve read they are thinking of returning conscription and are growing military industries rapidly. Maybe for a good cause this time. Should be their turn. LOL.

      • floo@retrolemmy.comEnglish
        0·
        9 days ago

        “Fascism” is not a German word. It’s an Italian word. Fascism started in Italy before it started in Germany and became something much worse.

  • einlander@lemmy.world
    0·
    10 days ago

    We will end up with a general population that knows their immigration/civil liberties laws and rights, and how to exercise them.

    It’s going to be real interesting.

  • i_stole_ur_taco@lemmy.ca
    0·
    10 days ago

    From the set up, I’d have expected the agents to have unleashed whatever was in that manila folder. You’d think it was important if it was one of the only things they brought in.

    Now I’m thinking it was less ICE agents carrying a warrant and more “militia leader bought a pack of folders at Staples” and told his racist minions a folder will get you through doors like wearing hi-vis or a ladder will.

  • iAvicenna@lemmy.world
    0·
    8 days ago

    I wouldn’t be surprised if some cop who ate there wasn’t happy with the service he got and organised this shenanigan

  • minorkeys@lemmy.world
    0·
    8 days ago

    Cops will take as much freedom as you give them and often they will attempt more than they have been granted. Never give cops an inch they are not legally entitled to. In democracies, laws exist to grant people freedom from the power of the state, not to grant the state freedom from the power of the people. Any laws that grant cops protection from the people are laws of a tyranny. We get only the protections of the state that our rights make possible and no more. Trading freedom for security gets us neither.

    • goldfndr@lemmy.ml
      0·
      8 days ago

      In democracies, laws exist to grant people freedom from the power of the state, not to grant the state freedom from the power of the people. Any laws that grant cops protection from the people are laws of a tyranny. We get only the protections of the state that our rights make possible and no more. Trading freedom for security gets us neither.

      Correction: In democracies, laws exist to grant power to the state, not to grant people freedom from the state. For example, I’m guessing that in your nearest democracy, there’s probably not a law granting you the freedom to stand still for more than a minute or lie down for more than a minute. The people’s freedom is a default.

      Now, perhaps what you were thinking of was that some laws have exceptions (that might be phrased as affirmative defenses). But those aren’t granting freedom to the people, they are restricting law enforcement. It’s like a “tax refund” — the government isn’t giving you their money, it’s returning your own money.