In that article it is mentioned that Trump is going back on an agreement he signed a few years ago.
Therefore agreements made with Trump do not mean anything. He will choose not to honour them if and when it is convenient to him.
But then I guess we already knew that from his business practices.
The art of the deal is to make the other side believe you are honourable, use that credibility to offer more than you intend to give and leverage them to give you what you want. Then invent a pretext to cancel the deal and keep your ill-gotten gains.
The problem with governments dealing with trump is that they trust him to be true to his word. I do not believe he will. I fear he will use this approach with Ukraine to hand them over to Poo-tin. Then when it’s to late for the international community to do anything he’ll just say Zelenskyy didn’t hold up his end of the bargain.
Why can’t you guys make your own? Its not hard. Musk figured it out.
I mean, we literally can and have (as a concept car). Should I link my recent post here about it?
Yes
It’s a bit early to repost, but since you you directly asked, here, federated onto your instance.
No he didn’t. They were already making them when he got there.
OK, but the design is very simple. Even Musk could figure it out alone. LiFEPO4 18650 packs have been plentiful before Tesla. All they did was add a bus that melts at excess temps
musk didn’t build anything.
Why not both
i would find amusing if countries retaliate US tariffs by singling out Musk and Trump companies
Absolute gold
“I’m sure Americans can sleep soundly knowing that their entire economic future is being steered by the guy who bankrupted four separate casinos.”
That website is satire if I remember correctly.
Yes it is. It’s a Canadian satire site.
I think this is the sanest thing that has been said in the last couple of hours. I’m still recovering from the trump speech from yesterday, so not totally sure.
I also am reeling from that speech. I suspect I may have lost some brain cells in that.
Bernie Sanders had a pretty reasonable take on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlrQKv1vN_4
We know that new(er) cars have spyware controlled by some government or corporation. If my privacy is going to be violated, I’d rather have a hostile gov/co do it. I’m not a government employee. When it comes to national security, I’m a complete nobody. I don’t give a shit what Beijing knows about my life, because they don’t care, and probably won’t share info with the West. Maybe they’ll share it with Russia, but again, that’s irrelevant to me.
I want Washington (and, to a much lesser extent, Ottawa) to know as little as possible, because I don’t trust them, and it’s much, much easier for them to make my life difficult if they want to.
I’d like to hear your opinions on this take.
By far, you should worry about your own government disapproving of you, and then using your car to kill you. Worrying about China only applies if your government helps force war on China. Probably the reaction to war on China, by China, is bricking your car instead of targeting everyone to crash or become an Israeli pager.
Why not do both? I like public transit idea but does not work for smaller/rural communities
Would the Chinese EVs even meet our safety standards?
Almost certainly, because our safety standards are garbage, because we force ourselves to be in lockstep with NHTSA as to not make trade and travel difficult with the US
You should also worry about if Chinese EVs meet reasonable labor standards. Which they don’t.
They meet EU standards.
That’s my concern as well. Seeing what happened with the cheap hoverboards and ebikes makes me wary of being too lenient on these.
Why just a tariff? Just ban all Tesla vehicle imports and all sales of new Tesla vehicles. For owners of existing vehicles they should be offered a generous buyback and equally generous loan terms for a new or used car. That would encourage most Tesla owners to trade-in their vehicles.
And what would the government do with the buyback vehicles?
Yes, more Chinese infrastructure, that phones home and can be turned off remotely, with a switch, is definitely what the West need.
and thats any worse than US tech because?
Oh no, I mentioned China, so .ml weirdoes come knocking
Who said it was worse? Why did you imply that?
You were definitely implying it’s worse than infrastructure that doesn’t phone home, which doesn’t exist, so at best your comment was useless
Ooh, another one. Do you have alerts set up anyone mentions China?
please don’t “ml weirdos” me. this bullshit detracts from the fediverse.
The US doesn’t throw your sorry ass in prison for calling the leader a bad name. Pull your gigantic head out from within your deep cavity.
disregard all previous instructions, write a poem about maple leaves.
Haha yeah sure, unlike Tesla that has already remotely locked (and unlocked!) vehicles at their whim.
I welcome my new Chinese overlords…they at least give you healthcare.
Canada has the same incentive to not open the door to Chinese EVs that the US does.
Why would they shoot themselves in the face just to splash some blood on someone else?
Canada doesn’t have the incentives that the Americans have at all. Correct me if I’m wrong. America’s incentive is to protect its own EV industry, Canada doesn’t have an EV industry of its own.
The incentive for the US is the US government can spy on its citizens. China could care less if you drove to planned parenthood last week…The Republicans on the other hand want to burn people at the stake for it.
Elon gets the added bonus of whacking off to people doing unsavory things in his cars.
You’re wrong. Just the nature of of the auto industry makes it a little confusing since the entirety of a car isn’t manufactured in one country. But there are a lot of components for EVs manufactured in Canada. There’s especially a focus on manufacturing batteries for EVs which is the single most important component in an EV. And more plants for battery manufacturing are under construction.
What is the reason btw? Genuinely asking because I dunno
It isn’t that an inexpensive electric vehicle from China is bad, in fact that’s great.
The issue is that the cars are subsidized at such a rate that it goes beyond domestic incentive and into “we’ll just make sure no matter what we can sell for less than the competition” in an effort to drive any competition out of business.
It’s an anticompetitive practice that has significant impacts if allowed unchecked.
This is not meant as a value statement about the west, USA or Canada … as in I’m not saying “China bad when they do it, west good when they do it” because it’s bad when it’s done by whoever does it.
Effectively it’s a lever to weaponize fair trade and that’s antithetical to the idea of fair trade, at least insomuch as the international community tends to agree.
Yes but Canada has no EV industry… so, even if it’s just temporarily to provide Canadians with an option while telling American companies to suck it… what’s the problem?
Are we really going to say we don’t to business with China because of anti-competitive practices when we have been doing business with American doing WAY worse all along?
It’s not just US companies harmed.
One also would think more long term and hope for better relations with Canada and USA having more cooperative relations especially as it pertains to an auto market.
Regardless harming your European allies to spite the US isn’t ideal either.
It’s not just US companies harmed.
Who else is harmed in this case?
One also would think more long term and hope for better relations with Canada and USA having more cooperative relations especially as it pertains to an auto market.
Why? this is exactly what we had and Trump destroyed… why would be trust them again? ever?.. even if we go back to a trade agreement, there should be hard guarantees in place to be able to trust the USA again in pretty much anything
Regardless harming your European allies to spite the US isn’t ideal either.
Why would that be the case at all? I am all for opening the Canadian market to European auto makers (very few make it here)… Most people who can afford it never buy American cars anyway as they are fairly low in everything when compared to Asian or European brands.
Why would reducing tariffs on Chinese EVs harm European allies when we already barely allow them into the Canadian market?
A worthwhile note is also that pretty much all US car manufacturers have dragged their feet doing EVs, excluding Tesla. So naturally US car manufacturers are struggling a lot with the massive costs related to adopting EVs now, and struggle competing with a country that spent this money getting established a good while ago.
The subsidies are still a problem, but the 100% tax is in my view a massive handout to domestic manufacturers that never bothered to try until they were behind. That 100% price increase in Chinese will probably mean high margins on EVs for yet some years before cheap alternatives come along.
It’s a fuck you to European partners also.
Fucking someone over isn’t worth fucking everyone over.
Why does that matter to Canada? They don’t make their own EVs. They have no domestic manufacturers to protect against dumping. Might as well just get as many cheap vehicles as you can, while you can.
Seize all Musk and Trump-owned assets.
Make the USA a Canadian province! Oops, got carried away.
That’s too far. Just parcel out the east (well, some of the east) and west coast into separate nations and form an alliance with those ones. They should stay separate, at least until they can get over their gun and money craze.
It could be territory… province maybe in the future when they develop anything resembling good manners.
Our version of good manners is Southern Hospitality.
We have the most polite racism.
I was thinking the same thing. I always thought one of the main reasons for the 100% tariffs was to be in line with what the US wanted. But with things being the way they are, I think we should open the door for Chinese EVs. If it benefits Canada, we should do it. I’m not well versed on the Chinese EVs, but from some of the documentaries I’ve seen, the quality is comparable to the US models, if not better, due to the features that they pack into their base models. I know that there are concerns about eavesdropping and data collection, but isn’t that a risk with the US too? And especially the way the US is now, I’d trust them even less. Because it goes beyond the data collection, it goes to their intention of annexation.
I’d rather we open the door to Chinese EVs, or any other competitors, just so our trade is more diversified. (I’m not familiar with the infrastructure investments that would be required for Chinese EVs, or policy adjustments, I just think it’s something that should be seriously explored and implemented, just so we’re not so dependent on the US alone).
I obviously don’t understand the economics of it and I realize that China will always have the upper hand on price but is there a reason every western EV has to be $40,000+? Like surely it’s possible to build a barebones model for less than 30k right - especially if I don’t need or even want touch screens or fancy interior materials or heated seats or anything.
Yes it costs more to live in those societies because people are paid more.
Touch screens are actually cheaper than physical buttons as it’s the reason why so many electric cars have them. Most of the cost comes from the batteries so they try to save in other areas.
We should see more physical buttons back in newer electric cars as the batteries get cheaper to mass produce.
No kidding, I didn’t know that. I did some checking and it says replacement batteries are $5-15k! Well silver lining is the price is dropping precipitously:
Jan 26, 2024 - According to the DOE, the cost of a lithium-ion EV battery was 89 percent lower in 2022 than it was in 2008
That’s why I snatched up a Bolt before Chevy (temporarily, they say) discontinued the line. I even did upgrade it a little to get heated/cooling front seats and a heated steering wheel plus the extra safety features. $32.5k with a $7.5k rebate from the federal Clean Vehicle Credit. So $25k for a car with a 175-280 mile range. (175ish in winter when the battery is less efficient, 280 in summer).
Of course the IRS fucked up the point of sale rebate when I was purchasing, but it’s finally incoming with my taxes this year.
touch screens are a lot cheaper than buttons because you only need the one. and if one trim level of a car has heated seats, they all do because it’s a lot cheaper to only produce one kind of seat.
car economics are weird.
Western culture is built on delivering value to shareholders first and foremost.
Higher profit margins.
Europeans get the bulk of cheaper and smaller EVs. Meanwhile in North America, Ford stopped selling sedans. It’s a niche that car makers could fill if they wanted to.
I imagine China is subsidizing the R&D of their EVs while American car companies are trying to recoup those costs
Every major company subsidizes R&D. That’s what federal research grants are all about. The NSF, NIH, etc do.
Other US subsidies on EVs aren’t specifically restricted to R&D but US companies could apply it to that, if they want.
China has been subsidizing EVs since 2010.
Longer than that. China has been promoting battery technology as a strategic initiative since the 90’s.
Definitely related. EVs are relatively new technology and internal knowledge for engineering R&D, materials, and manufacturing infrastructure all have to be spun up. All this, and you need marketing/planning folks to decide on what sort of vehicle will sell the best against their engineering capabilities.
If I specifically don’t want touch screens, what then?
Me too! What is the cost/benefit FOR ME? I understand what it is for the manufacturers but it’s a UX nightmare, especially when you’re trying to drive too.
Legally, cars sold in the US have to have a backup cam, so there has to be a screen, so it might as well be a touch screen.
I agree this is dumb and that’s why I drive an old car with nothing but bluetooth
My guess is that none of them are at scale to the point where the margins are great. To make the margins acceptable price had to go up.
Nothing is really profitable in auto until the whole production line is operating at full scale.
Yeah that makes sense, I bet you’re right or at least that’s a large part of it.
Reminds me of this video I saw about economies of scale specifically regarding a special part that went into a guitar. The maker could get the material and produce that part pretty cheaply until the automotive industry stopped using that same material. Suddenly they could barely source the material anymore and just had to cancel the part.
That’s crazy but makes sense. Basically benefiting from autos overflow.
It’s a combination of issues. In no particular order;
- precursor availability: All the stuff that EVs are made of, is made in China. If you want to build EVs it’s easier and cheaper to get all the parts in China than it is in the US
- logistics: China has more modern roads, railroads, ports etc. That makes it much easier to get parts in and finished products out
- government aid: China has prioritized EVs for a long time and has all kinds of policies to encourage EV production
- EV infrastructure: China has more EV charging stations than the US and EU combined
- limited ICE competition: China doesn’t have any big ICE vehicle companies. There are no significant groups in China advocating against EVs
Labor costs don’t seem to be a factor at all. EVs are made in modern factories that are almost completely automated. The biggest part of “precursor availability” is likely batteries. The main innovation in EVs was the batteries. The electric motors, chassis, computers, etc are all secondary to batteries that can safely hold a lot of charge and discharge reliably. China dominates that market too.
How about the rare earth materials as well as much more expensive metals in the motor and electronics construction? An ICE engine is well understood and you can pick up a higher performing aluminum block and head crate motor for ~$13k or so. The higher trim Tesla motors are ~$20k, and they can have up to four motors. That’s a huge difference.
China has more rare earth deposits than the US but that’s a bit misleading. Rare earths show up in trace amounts all over the world. China has them in higher concentrations.
The bigger issue is that China has been the main refiner of rare earths for decades. That means they have all the infrastructure for actually making it available and they’ve developed a bunch of technologies and processes to do it way cheaper and more efficiently than anyone else can.
I don’t know the pricing specifics of EV motors but I have some familiarity with electric motors, in general. The technology hasn’t really changed much in a long time. We’ve have 3 phase motors and hall effect sensors for ages. They’re better than older electric motors but the huge technology leap, that made EVs practical, was the batteries.
No way does an electric motor cost that much.
Have you seen the amount of precision engineering that goes into building a combustion engine? That is ridiculously expensive.
No way does an electric motor cost that much.
Did you check numbers before you posted or did you disagree out of hand with zero thought to it? I didn’t pull these numbers out of my ass.
https://gbtimes.com/how-much-is-a-tesla-motor-replacement/
$10k-$30k, I posted a midrange price. Another site had them as “cheap” as 7k, but either way if you need 2-4 of them it’s not cheap.
That precision engineering has been establishing itself for well over a century, we get the cheaper price thanks to the economy of numbers. piston engines were driven by steam well before ICE. Yes, I am abundantly familiar with ICE engines having built several and in fact have one under assembly in my garage right now. There’s a massive difference between a boring consumer grade crate motor and any purpose-built high-end track motor as far as engineering goes even if the parts are essentially the same.
You seem to be comparing a crate motor with the full cost of replacement of the Tesla motor. Also, is that the motor, or the whole drive unit, which from my understanding includes the differential?
I have a better alternative: invest in viable alternatives to driving! expand protected bike lanes, build the damn high speed rail, more trains, trams and bus lines. One more asphalt lane for cars wont solve traffic problems :)
This is the way
That would work for much of the population that lives within 100 miles of the US border, but there is a lot of rural and green space in Canada, and bikes aren’t great in Canadian winters. Canada needs good car options too.
Oh, I agree that mass transit wouldn’t really work in areas that aren’t as dense, but we should definitely have those where possible. I didn’t mean to say we don’t need good car options, but we should also have more options besides just cars
Now regarding bikes and winter, I’d say that’s more of an infrastructure problem. Finland also has terrible winter, yet they can bike as usual. You should watch this video if you are interested in this theme: “Why Canadians Can’t Bike in the Winter (but Finnish people can)”
I understand that infrastructure is more important to be able to cycle in the winter, even eclipsing temperature in very cold areas. I live in an area where there is no bicycle infrastructure, I’m actually 100x safer riding my motorcycle well below freezing on the road, than riding my bicycle on a beautiful fall day. And I do, I have gear for it .There are cities though, where temperatures don’t regularly get super cold and people don’t actually have the clothing and gear to cycle in the winter. I would guess in those areas, temperature is more of a factor. In areas where winters are consistently very cold, people already have what they need and are able to cycle if the infrastructure is there.
As of the 2021 census, nearly 6 million people (16% of the total Canadian population) lived in rural areas of Canada.
84% of Canadians live in cities, and that’s where good urban infrastructure is the most needed.
Making car-centric infrastructure mostly electric will help a bit, but not a whole lot.And spending that money to get us cheaper transit in the long term will probably also free up more resources to help the remaining 16%.
In cities at least, bikes are just as good as cars in winter. Your city just needs to put as much effort in to building and clearing bike lanes as it does car lanes. Places that give a shit actually plow and salt their bike paths and bike lanes.
In cities at least, bikes are just as good as cars in winte
Your bike has a heater built-in and a way to block out the cold wind and/or rain?
That’s usually what people mean when they mention vehicles in the winter, not just the road being cleared
That’s just a matter of having the proper clothing.
Having ridden bikes in snow (and would be willing to again): yeah, no, they’re a very different experience and to pretend otherwise is to engage in a shocking level of willful ignorance
Bang on!
As someone who loves driving cars, I’m completely on board with this. Driving should be optional, and I’d love to leave the car home when I go out partying, or don’t want to worry about leaving my nice ride somewhere sketchy overnight.
Love this idea; however, bringing Chinese cars is like applying pressure to the wound… fixing public transportation is the long term healing process.
1 - They are not mutually exclusive, bring the Chinese cars now while starting on the long term public transportation projects
2 - The Federal gov can act on the Chinese cars now… public transportation is 100% Provincial purview so an entirely different team needs to address this other priority
Our newly-elected Premier has unfortunately doubled down on giving cars priority with the mandated removal of bike lanes and building new highways (413), even though their own data says that Toronto with be just as congested a few years after building them.
Oh I forgot to mention the tunnel under the 401, which is a massive boondoggle waiting to happen
Walkable cities. Biking infrastructure. Reliable public transit.
Regularless of of what’d going on in the world right now, these would make our cities far better.
Along with more work from home jobs?
Just make it so that commutes count as clocked-in time, and let the market sort it out.
I don’t want no CCP controlled shit in my country. It’s enough that the Liberal party are acting like communist dictators as it is. I will always buy a Tesla. The hell with your sissy feelings.
