You must log in or # to comment.
Any individual who make blanket comments about whole sections of society will loose my respect pretty quickly.
Substitute women, blacks, Asians, Latinos, the Dutch, and just about every other subsection for the word “male” in that statement and this thread would be having a completely different conversation.
okay but we’re not talking about another subsection… we’re talking about men. you can insert whatever qualifier in front that makes you feel better about it, but you wouldn’t be making this comment if they were talking about another group. this is a problem among young men. we need to be able to talk about it if we want anything to change.
obviously if you insert a marginalized group in place of a dominant one it will be different. that is how that works, yes. this type of comment only derails from genuine concerns.
The irony being that those are their genuine concerns.
There’s nothing genuine about your rotten misandry. Take it, and yourself, out of here.
misandry? sure buddy, I really hold some deep hatred for men. or maybe the messaging men grow up on is toxic and ends up leading to women facing actual discrimination and violence. no such thing is happening in the other direction. women avoiding men for their own safety may hurt, but it’s not the same thing.
and why are we pretending that there’s some anti men agenda here? because a woman wasn’t careful enough with her phrasing, she didn’t say “some” men? everybody knows the numbers on inter gender violence. nobody is saying you are personally responsible. but anytime women express that men make them feel unsafe, every man in the room makes it about him. I love men, but I need to approach carefully to ensure they haven’t been Tatepilled before I get close. many women are just sticking with their girlfriends. why is this controversial?
it’s really frustrating to me honestly. I’m a trans woman. I’ve been on both sides of this conversation, and I’ve been on both sides of the equation. I’ve been a problematic man. I’ve been a healthy man. and now I’m not a man. I know how painful it is to constantly be perceived as a threat, and it hurt even more because I didn’t even want to be a man in the first place. but this argument comes up anytime a woman talks about her experiences and resulting outlook, and it’s just not productive because ultimately women are the ones in danger, while men are lonely and upset. not every man is a threat, but it’s enough of them that women need to be careful, and most of them got better at hiding their problems rather than actually going to therapy. women would love just as much as men to stop having these gendered associations and live and love freely. men need to hold each other accountable, we need to change the way we teach them, and importantly, they need to listen when women talk about these things instead of talking over them.
There is no “being careful with phrasing”. You and your cohort essentially start every sentence with “Men…” this or “Men…” that. It doesn’t matter what point you think you’re trying to make. You automatically invalidate it by arguing about all men and disregarding individuality. That’s misandry. Get it in your head.
my cohort? lmfao dude. I don’t KNOW every individual man but I have to be careful no matter who it is. that’s not misandry. men are scared of being lonely or perceived as threatening or being made fun of. women are scared of being raped and killed. nobody called you a rapist, dude, but we can’t trust blindly.
Then why not talk about rapists ? It’s so easy to exclude people who aren’t part of that group, just name and shame the damn group instead of a super-category they belong to.
how am I to know whether any given man is a rapist? we’re talking about men here because women need to be careful around all men. I don’t hate men, I generally love them; nobody wants to have to be this careful. Andrew Tate being as popular as he was only scares people more. because of all this, many women have given up on looking for male partners. I can’t really blame them; in many places, the risk is high.
Where did they say no good men exist?
It was implied (if not outright said, which I believe they did but whatever it’s a possibly made-up sister from a random person on the internet.)
Nope.
When you’re talking about demographics, you do not need to carve out exceptions for every single little outlier—it would be useless to talk about them otherwise.
It implies they had some bad dates.
I mean…you’re not wrong, but it is a part of the conversation without context.
People tend to date a type. I’ve known plenty of girls who tend to date that type of man.
My SIL is like that and I hated every guy she introduced me to. The guy shes with now (and likely forever) was like that, but he’s definitely grown a lot during their relationship and now I think eh is a pretty cool guy. He’s still got some jagged edges but he’s not Dudebro McChismo anymore for sure.
For every Dudebro McChismo there’s plenty of Whitney Wineos and Sally Spadays and Jimmy Porchmonkeys. Stereotypes exist because there’s a sizeable chunk of a population that continues to live up to them.
I went to the same high school as one of the kids from Jersey Shore during the height of his fame. And we weren’t all Guido Paisono fucks like him, but we definitely had an outsized share.
Huh, so in essence boys and girls are raised to the same outcome.
As a man, who knows many “men”, I have to say, a lot aren’t being raised… At all.
It’s funny that you both place quotation marks around men, showing you don’t believe they are, and yet pretend that you think the fault is in how they’re being raised.
It’s like the dichotomy escapes you. Are they real men raised poorly? Or are they fake men and therefore they’re not the subject of this discussion at all?
I don’t expect you to have any reasonable response though because clearly the misandrist brain rot hit you pretty hard. My condolences. Maybe you should isolate though.
What even is this response?
I was raised. I raised myself.
I see a lot of boys who are so sheltered from the world that they can’t even make hot pockets or do their laundry without someone helping them.
I wanted to be raised by my parents and I was forced to raise myself. I don’t say this to garner any sympathy, because I know I won’t get any. I’m not going to throw myself a pity party because I was left to figure it out.
The only point I’m making, if any at all, is that: school doesn’t prepare you for life. It certainly didn’t prepare me for life… And parents should be teaching their kids how to deal with stuff, and think about their choices so they can make good ones without needing to be told what to do.
I had to figure that out on my own. It’s 100% possible to have a very easy upbringing and be raised right.
I don’t think I need to tell anyone that nobody gives a fuck about how you feel or how much you’re struggling, if you have a dick between your legs, and that demonstrates the problem in society. Boys will “figure it out”.
Most of them don’t, more than a few, never will.
What’s all this shit about being raised? Who raised you?
I was like that, dad left when I was 11 and mom was majorly depressed. Watched a shit ton of YouTube and thankfully found myself on the good side. Around this time there was the war between Logan Paul and the rest of the internet and I watched a lot of commentators call his shit out.
Probably not the best for me, but it did teach the basic morals of “don’t be an asshole”. Most other kids watched Logan/Jake Paul and were insufferable fucks.
To summarize my youth: the only stuff I learned, outside of school, was taught to me by my brothers, in the form of bullying.
I was the youngest.
What I’m most annoyed by is that my dad, a teacher, with a bachelor’s in bookkeeping, taught me exactly nothing about money.
They fed me, and I got older, but I raised myself. I learned how to handle my own finances, and live on my own, because they certainly didn’t help me in that regard, and when I found myself basically on my own at 16, after my parents divorced and I was essentially abandoned, I had to sort my shit out damn fast. It was sink or swim.
Obviously there’s a lot more to it than that, but I’ll tell you this: as a teenager, I had no goddamned idea how to shop for groceries, or cook for myself.
I try not to bitch about it too much because that was more than 20 years ago now. I don’t want to compare my challenges to anyone else.
My entire point is that, I wasn’t taught anything. I figured it out without any help. The difference between a man, and a child who got older, is whether you taught yourself how to be self sufficient, when everyone else decided that you were old enough to know everything you needed to know, when nobody has actually explained anything to you about how to survive, then pushed you out the door… If you experienced that, and you figured it out. Welcome to adulthood, congrats. If you were never in a situation where if you missed a couple of shifts at work, you’d have to sleep under a bridge, then, IDK. Sounds a bit pampered to me.
They feed you and expect you to grow but they didn’t have a plan on how to mautre just a list of don’ts you have to follow.
Do as I say!
Don’t talk back!
Becuase I said so!
Some just wait all the life to be in that position of power and now they are removed from it telling them they are wrong. If you think about it is almost a given they’ll turn to right wing if they promise them the price they were denied…
I relate, kind of.
i’m wondering how long it’s going to be before society realizes it has to do something about this unless it wants people like tate raising their children.
This has been a problem in the making for a long time and it’s even worse now with the internet so accessible.
It’s much easier for people to mock and ridicule than to educate and correct.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t call out poor behavior but the way we do so should be constructive as to not breed further resentment. This goes for most everything too, not just for the issue in the OP.
This is just a small part of creating a world that you want to live in. We can’t shut out the world or those we disapprove of, but we can contribute to the betterment of others, making the world a place we’re more more comfortable with sharing.
It’s much easier for people to mock and ridicule than to educate and correct.
yes, and this is why i think we should be completely ignoring this aspect. It’s not really primed to do anything productive.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t call out poor behavior but the way we do so should be constructive as to not breed further resentment. This goes for most everything too, not just for the issue in the OP.
it’s not that we need to call it out, we shouldn’t allow it. Everybody called out the bad behavior of hitler, it’s not like he up and stopped doing that shit.
the best way to do this is to instill it in the minds of children as they grow up. Which it seems we aren’t doing at much of any rate.
This is just a small part of creating a world that you want to live in. We can’t shut out the world or those we disapprove of, but we can contribute to the betterment of others, making the world a place we’re more more comfortable with sharing.
exactly.
Idk if it’s getting worse, most gen z boys seem to have been taught to clean much better than those before and are expected to be able to cook. That’s not to say all movements to equality happen in the right direction, it seems young boys have much more body issues than before (e.g mogging mewing etc) and that sucks.
yeah but that’s equivalent to shit like showering and brushing your teeth. If you don’t know how to do that shit you quite literally are a dependent.
it seems young boys have much more body issues than before (e.g mogging mewing etc) and that sucks.
this is more of a shitpost than anything to be fair.
Sucks that your type has this character.
True, but it encompasses a lot of people.
As if the wildabeasts with Karen haircuts, the inability to change a tire, and the ability to complain makes these women somehow better than the men they complain about. Thunderthighs -away-
Am man.
I enjoy living alone.
I enjoy owning my house and keeping it clean and maintained.
I enjoy cooking at a pretty high level.
I don’t particularly enjoy doing my laundry, but it doesn’t hinder me.
I do not enjoy yardwork, so I outsource it to a landscaper.
I enjoyed being a single dad.
I enjoy watching my daughter making her way in the world.
I enjoy it when my daughter calls me to regale me with tales of her life. I enjoy it even more when she calls me for advice.
I enjoy stability.
I enjoy the silence.
I enjoy the autonomy.
I’m pretty boring.
Age has definitely begun to take its toll on my youthful looks, especially as all my remaining teeth seem to be rebelling all at once.
I do not adapt well to changes in my daily routine or my domestic environment.
I save money. I don’t much spend it.
But I enjoy traveling whenever I feel like it to wherever I feel like it so see whichever friends I please.
I do not own a bidet or an electric kettle, just a dystopian stovetop kettle.
Life has repeatedly, loudly, aggressively taught me that all of this is woefully insufficient.
I am not a desirable adult.
Please, take the bear and leave me be.
As a bisexual guy, this is exactly why I mostly dated women.
Hey! Bi cis male here, the few men I seem to go on dates with always seem to have some hangup. I’m not gay enough, I’m married to a women, hates vegans, hates trans people. It’s really exhausting to the point that first dates feel like I’m interviewing them.
You’re married, go on dates, then complain people are mad that you’re married… How many times were you dropped on your head as a kid exactly?
you mean to tell me that most people don’t believe the majority of the things you do? That’s weird.
It’s really exhausting to the point that first dates feel like I’m interviewing them.
If it’s a first date, you are interviewing them. I’m sorry it feels exhausting for you though.
I get what you mean but it shouldn’t feel like that. I shouldn’t be searching for something they might hate me over.
I agree, it shouldn’t feel like that. As someone who is bi and queer though, on top of all the normal trials and tribulations of dating there’s also a long list of people who don’t think I have the right to exist. I’d rather find out they’re a hate filled asshole as soon as possible so I can move on with my life. At this stage I won’t meet someone face to face unless we’ve chatted extensively online already. Even though I’m dooming hard I do still hope you find someone 😊
Yeah, when I met my wife the first time it was the opposite of exhausting. I felt like I could keep talking all night.
Dude same. It was really easy to date before 2016. First date with my wife we kept talking until the bar closed.
Now you have to look into your meeting spot make sure nothing problematic happened there. I was lucky that my enbyfriend friend was in the music scene when I was because I already knew a lot about them before our relationship started.
Now if someone is interested in me. I’m always skeptical. I recently got asked to help this straight lady cheat on her husband because she wanted to create strife for a divorce. Like who TF what’s to be involved with that stress?
As a straight man I could say similar things about most of the women I’ve dated. It’s not a men problem or a women problem, it’s just how dating is. Nobody’s perfect and it’s hard to find someone that fits with you.
Men are hot, but I’m more pessimistic about finding a guy I’d want a relationship with than finding a girl. As a transfem, I’d have an easier time finding a guy, but a majority would probably be abusive or chasers. There might be fewer women, but it’d be safer(women are more likely to be progressive) and they’d be more into me as a person. It’d be harder to hookup, but easier to find a gf than bf.
Even transmascs would be better than cis dudes because they’re almost certainly not bigoted chasers that were raised to see women as goals instead of people.
My wife would agree I suspect. She’s transfem, and basically considered herself a lesbian until she met me.
Wow! Sample size: 1. Sure showed them, buddy.
Clearly not bi, btw, you’re a misandrist. Congratulations 🎉!
I’ve never seen someone so pissed off and offended over not getting any bussy lmao
As a bisexual guy, this is not at all my experience with non-straight men. They seem to be mostly cool and well socialized.
Men grow up to have whatever habits worked well for them when they were boys.
Tolerate dishonesty in boys? They’ll be dishonest as men.
Encourage aggression in boys? They’ll be aggressive as men.
Oblige pickiness in boys? They’ll be picky as men.
This is inevitably true of women too, though girls tend to push different boundaries than boys.
Reward emotional manipulation in girls? They’ll be emotionally manipulative as women. (Boys do this too, but they’re often not as subtle about it, get called out, and switch to anger instead)
Oblige pickiness in boys? They’ll be picky as men.
- Pickiness in women? “It’s her fundamental right to be picky!”
- Pickiness in men? “Zomg, what a misogynistic incel!!!1!”
That gap is indicative of how much anti-male hatred and gender hypocrisy there is floating around out there. Pick one attitude or the other for both sexes to share, but you cannot have each sex be subject to a unique attitude in any society that purports to “value equality”.
Encourage aggression in boys? They’ll be aggressive as men
Women - especially educators - frequently paint competitiveness and a need for physical action as “aggression”, because they don’t understand what they are looking at. They aren’t men, so they have no frame of reference to interpret masculine behaviour correctly in the first place. This is why boys everywhere are being denied the masculinity they so desperately need, and instead are being treated as broken girls, leading to severely malformed adults who don’t know how to be men.
It’s time to re-introduce gender-segregated schools, and have boy’s-only schools staffed with only male teachers. So many boys are starving for the role models that women simply cannot provide…
Oblige pickiness in boys? They’ll be picky as men.
I feel like this isn’t necessarily a bad thing… My son is super picky, and it’s annoying for sure, but it doesn’t deserve to be in the same list as dishonesty or aggression… It means he knows what he likes and won’t let anyone push him into something he’s not comfortable with. He’ll try new things on occasion, but he has to be ready for it, if we push him he just digs in and refuses to budge. I’ve had the best results with “hey bud, want to try this? It’s really good” and when he says no, “suit yourself, more for me.” It doesn’t work often, but when it does, it sticks. New food option unlocked. My wife will bargain with him, and she gets him to try stuff, but only to get what she’s offering, even if he ends up liking it, he needs to keep up the appearance that he doesn’t because it’s been made into such a big deal…
There are pluses and minuses for most things. Aggression can be very useful if the kid is into sports, or even competitive video games. Too much can be a problem, but too little and you get Milton from Office Space.
Pickiness can be thought of as the opposite of adventurousness. If someone’s too picky they may never try new things. If they’re too adventurous, they may never settle down, and might seek out situations that are too dangerous and thrilling.
I don’t know if how you’re raising your kid is good or not. But, I do know that as a kid, my parents never would have put up with that kind of pickiness. Either I ate what they were preparing, or I didn’t eat that meal. On one hand, this did result in my absolutely hating brussels sprouts. They were always prepared ultra mushy and now, even if I try some that are prepared well, the memory of the disgusting ones comes up and I gag. On the other hand, I’m pretty adventurous when it comes to trying new foods. I’ll hesitate a bit at brains or other organs, bugs, and fermented things, but other than that I’m eager to try new things. I think overall it served me well to have been pushed to eat outside my tiny comfort zone as a kid.
Either I ate what they were preparing, or I didn’t eat that meal.
My mother tried that with me. Unfortunately for her, I inherited her stubbornness, so I was willing to just not eat and/or be punished.
Eventually she caved and change the rule from “Eat what I make or don’t eat” to “Eat what I make or make something your damn self”, which I found much more agreeable.
Oh hey, it’s me
My mom wasn’t as stubborn though, she caved to “Fine, make it yourself” pretty early, and then I ended up being a decent cook. I attribute the fact that I took Home Ec (particularly cooking) to the fact that I was picky, and was allowed to be so
Every man is the son of a woman.
Yes and no. There are plenty of people raised by same sex adoptive parents
what good ever comes from being desirable to women?
half your shit + any alimony payments 10 years from now
For several years I hated women because subconsciously I was angry that they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not. Now that I’ve matured I hate the system that keeps me oppressed. I think if “alpha males” stopped taking out their anger on women and instead on the capitalist class we would start seeing some true progress.
same but then I realized I am a woman
Congratulations on your transition 🙏
Same :3
It’s funny that you think being trans is relevant to the discussion.
It’s like you’re admitting that you have no personality, and that the sole reason for your transition is hating men. Fucking lmao.
Sure buddy
never hated women but yes XD
For several years I hated women because subconsciously I was angry that they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not.
Wouldn’t the equivalent rather be women being allowed to express masculine traits? Which to be fair is well-accepted nowadays.
However, I don’t give a shit if people see some of my traits as feminine. I was born male and 100% identify as male. If others see my traits as feminine, it doesn’t change my identity because I define it. Think I shouldn’t wear long hair? Who asked for your opinion? And why should be awesome traits like empathy or openness be strictly female and not human?
I want to see you again after 5 years. /lh
Some masculine traits in women are accepted to some extent. But, look at the backlash against that Algerian boxer.
For someone who really cares about fitting in with society, the pressure to conform can be pretty brutal. There’s probably more freedom to be who you want to be now than ever before. In the past not only gender roles, but every role in society was extremely rigid. People didn’t even have the freedom to decide whether or not to wear a hat outside. The expectation was that everyone wore a hat, and if you didn’t you were a real oddball.
I strongly suspect that some of the people who think they’re trans are just people who have interests/passions/attitudes/personalities that don’t conform to their stereotypical gender roles.
they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not.
A man expressing masculinity? “That’s violently toxic!”
A man expressing femininity? “That’s disgustingly pathetic!”
Now that I’ve matured I hate the system that keeps me oppressed
Except… who reinforces those oppressive rules?
It ain’t men, that’s for sure. We just passively submit and nod our heads yes to whatever women say, least we are painted with the same brush by association, and be labelled misogynistic or “not a man” for disagreeing.
A man expressing masculinity? “That’s violently toxic!”
Okay, I have to imagine you’re here in bad faith because anyone who understands toxic masculinity would not phrase it this way.
I was referring to the capitalist class that keeps people divided while they enrich themselves. Also it was primarily men who stopped me from expressing any sort of femininity while women passively agreed.
As a cis male, I find this post to be so true. And you’re never done trying to unfold this socialization.
you shouldn’t be trying to unfold it, it’s not super practical, you need to focus on folding the rest of your clothes first. If we don’t socialize children correctly, we can never truly fix this problem, but we’re at a point where we can still fix the majority of this problem in younger children and men right now. We can worry about the holdouts later.
Younger men and children as they age out can be a massive force to push this change as well. It only takes a few people to change the minds of hundreds of others.
The ‘fun’ part is when you start to unwind the really deeply rooted parts and question how much of you is socially conditioned reflex. Blegh. Really wish I’d just been lucky enough to be born at a point where society had moved past this shite.
Yes, and also not incentivized as adults to change, shitty toxic alpa-bs traits often lead to a better financial status, and what somehow even worse, to a better social status bcs we are meant to adore & respect such individuals.
(But also such dickishness isn’t a behaviour type exclusive to men or male biology imho, that fact that we currently associate (and even encourage/keep the cycle repeating) this with men is the result of fucked up social constructs of the past, a shitty legacy of a flawed race.)
So… ok, look… I know this comment may be nuked into oblivion, but I’m just a guy (closer to agender in terms of how I identify, but try explaining that to my fellow countrypeople… ) attracted to women, who’s had to deal with a Standard Eastern European male-focused upbringing and am now open and willing to undo that damage.
To get to my point, from the perspective I’ve detailed above, this is too vague to offer any clarity related to the specific problem and/or any ideal solutions.
In my opinion, while I do agree that keeping a finger pointed at the problem is a must in order to avoid it slipping from the list of things to solve moving forward, just pointing the finger and letting others figure it out is not. This is part of the very problem we’re trying to address, we all (yes, all, including myself) want people who identify as and own “man” as a part of their identity to grow and become healthier as members of this species, yet most material just says “men are toxic” and that’s it. There is no example offered, there is no list of things to be addressed, and, to be very honest, these feel like they’re coming from a place of hurt and not with an intent to teach, fix or help fix.
TRIGGER WARNING: the paragraph below contains a trauma joke, said joke exists solely to establish ownership of my trauma and neuter it of its power. I do not mean to offend anyone or minimise any traumatic experiences.
Personal anecdote, I could say the exact same thing as the OC about every one of my exes, all women, were I to allow myself to fall into the trap of resentment. Hell, I’m literally missing SA to get the Abuse Bingo.
The OC means nothing to me (no offence intended, I’m referring strictly to what message I can gleam from it), as I’m sure it would mean nothing to the many people I know who identify as men and are actively trying to redefine what that means for the benefit of themselves and those around them. At best, it reinforces the idea that “The Right tries to sell me misogyny and brain pills, The Left calls me an asshole,” at worst it actively pushes people away from the threshold of change, and, in my opinion, neither option is of any benefit. Why not offer some clarifying details alongside it? Or even learning material if you know of any?
Again, mean no offence to anyone, shit’s as confusing as can be to me and I’m honestly coming from a place of openness and willingness to do better. And, yeah, I know I’m essentially talking to a screenshot from Twitter, but, like… you get it.
In my opinion, while I do agree that keeping a finger pointed at the problem is a must in order to avoid it slipping from the list of things to solve moving forward, just pointing the finger and letting others figure it out is not. This is part of the very problem we’re trying to address, we all (yes, all, including myself) want people who identify as and own “man” as a part of their identity to grow and become healthier as members of this species, yet most material just says “men are toxic” and that’s it. There is no example offered, there is no list of things to be addressed, and, to be very honest, these feel like they’re coming from a place of hurt and not with an intent to teach, fix or help fix.
this big problem here is that we need a fundamental shift in child rearing and how we raise boys. There isn’t really a good example beyond that. Currently the best you can do is be a good mentor and role model for the boys and young men around you. Preferably without becoming a suspected child predator, which is the hard part.
it’s looking like we’re moving towards that, but we have very little direction and very little scientifically backed evidence for any of this, so we’re kinda just pushing into a marshy field and trying to find a coin someone dropped somewhere at this point.
That’s exactly why I’d add as many details as possible with posts such as this! Swing it from a “you’re an asshole,” to “you’re an asshole because:” and I’m sure this’ll resolve a lot of potential knee-jerk reactions in those who are targeted by and come into contact with said messages.
I agree that it’s up to us to redefine what healthy masculinity should be, there’s a lot of redefining to do in general… And the value of information cannot be overstated in these cases, because examples of how not to do it can be the perfect points with which to define to-dos!
this could help, but you could go even further. Instead of “you’re being an asshole” you could say “this is an asshole thing to do, you probably shouldn’t do this” or something like that which dissociates the person from it very aggressively.
I agree that it’s up to us to redefine what healthy masculinity should be, there’s a lot of redefining to do in general… And the value of information cannot be overstated in these cases, because examples of how not to do it can be the perfect points with which to define to-dos!
yeah. It’s going to be a big change socially.
All right, let me give it a shot…
Masculinity is good
Toxic masculinity is not good.
Toxic masculinity includes things like couching nice comments in mean comments. Saying things like toughen up instead of listening to feelings and concerns. Not doing a good job with personal hygiene because it’s “gay”. There is probably more, but it’s 7:00 a.m. and my brain is not thinking good.
Being a man means that you’re a human. And like all humans you have feelings. No, you did not use your willpower and/or big brain to remove feelings from your system. No one can do that. All you’ve done is removed the ability for you to detect your feelings. Others can see them clearly, because you have lost the ability to identify your own feelings and are not able to tell when you are having them. Hint: A lot of times feelings will transform themselves into anger if you don’t have a good understanding of what’s going on inside you. Even feelings like sadness, if not understood can come out as anger.
“I don’t know” is a valid response to a question.
Not everything you do has to be “rational” we are humans not computers.
Figure out, create, and enforce personal boundaries. Likewise respect the personal boundaries of others.
As a human being, you have intrinsic value. This is not tied to the work you do or the money you make. It is only tied to the fact that you exist. Because of this, you deserve to live and enjoy life implicitly.
Assuming you’re straight and you want sex with women. Sex is good. Straight women love sex with men just like straight men love sex with women. There is an unfortunate history between men and women where men are the aggressors, and have caused lots of pain, suffering, and death. This does not mean you are bad. It does mean though that you need to deal with the consequences of that history. Understand that going on a first date from a woman’s perspective is very scary. So don’t do anything that would cause concern. Be considerate. Give the woman an out. Keep your sketchy jokes to yourself for a couple of dates.
When dating, remember and enforce your boundaries and respect their boundaries. Women, like men, are not intrinsically good at relationships.
Pro dating tip from me to you: I have found sometimes that women just want to have someone listen to the problem they’re having and sympathize. They’ll do this even though they already know the solution. My instinct has been to try to suggest solutions. This does not go well. Just listen to their problem, resist the urge to suggest the obvious solution, and say something like " Wow, that sounds hard!"
I understand what I’m asking is very hard to do, but remember 99.999% of my advice also applies to all humans, not just men. It’s just as men, you’ve been kept out of the loop by culture. It’s not your fault. Feelings and boundaries are hard for everyone. It’s like learning how to ride a bike at 30 years old. Most everyone already knows how to do it. And now you’re at the age where it’s hard to learn.
Don’t forget you have intrinsic value. Love yourself!
Sincerely, thank you! This is more than I could’ve hoped for and, yes, it’s plenty clear wherein lay the problems.
Also reassuring, because the entire list just sounds like “be human and humane,” which… I mean, yeah!
I like this comment a lot.
Regarding the part about feelings, what should we be doing when we understand our feelings? Like, I understand that I’m sad or nervous about a new situation or whatever but I can’t function as well when I’m sad or anxious. When it changes to anger I can still do the things I need to do. I’m probably not pleasant to be around but I’m not pleasant to be around when I’m emotional in other ways either so it kind of evens out because at least I can work. If I can take the time to just be sad I do but I prefer to be alone with it so usually it comes out when I’m driving or other situations where I know I’ll have privacy. My friends would support me and I have supported them in the past but it’s just something I prefer to deal with alone. The few times I’ve let it out in front of a girlfriend though have been the beginning of the end of the relationship. It’s like they immediately lost their attraction to me when they saw me cry.
Good questions!
So in an ideal world, if you have a feeling. You should be able to say something like “I am having emotions and I need some time alone to deal with it.” and then leave the area to find a safe space.
Unfortunately, we are rarely living in the ideal world. The next best thing to do is to communicate that you are having feelings and might do some wacky stuff. Only do this if you feel safe to do so.
If you don’t feel safe to communicate or go find a safe space, then yeah, your kinda stuck to power though it. If you find this happens often you have to weigh weather or not it is worth changing your situation. This is very hard to do and is a result of pervasive toxic masculinity and bad luck.
As for the situation with your x it could be a range of things from she was affected by toxic masculinity as well (the expectation that all men need to be emotionless) or at worst, she was using the fact that you didn’t feel like you could show emotions against you. So when you showed emotions, the gig was up. Either way it sucks, I am sorry you went though that.
My personal preference is to only date people who understand that all humans have emotions. You need to make your own calls in this regard. Again, unfortunately, we don’t live in an ideal world.
Part of the challenge of moving away from toxic masculinity is we have to be firm with our boundaries. This may get expensive, so you have to weigh out how much life suck you can deal with. Its not always clear what the right answer is.
Good luck!
The few times I’ve let it out in front of a girlfriend though have been the beginning of the end of the relationship. It’s like they immediately lost their attraction to me when they saw me cry.
I’m very sorry to hear that. It may be that they did not have the emotional and social maturity to process it well. Or, maybe your expression did not come across in the way that you thought.
Regarding the part about feelings, what should we be doing when we understand our feelings?
This is one that I can’t answer as an expert, both because I am not a mental health professional and because I struggle with my emotions a bit due to my ADHD and maladaptive coping mechanisms to deal with childhood trauma. But, therapy has helped significantly and I will always suggest it to anyone who is able to access it.
What I can offer, though, are some tools, theory, and suggestions that have been helpful for me so far:
Find a good Feelings/Emotion Wheel. So far, I like the ones patterned after the Junto Institute as it delves into the nuance of emotions that we experience.
How do you use it? Well, there are a lot of different approaches. What I find helpful is looking at it from time to time to “look at the map” and thinking about times when I have experienced intense emotions, using the Wheel to better draw out more precisely what I was feeling. This exercise generally also goes into exploring why I was feeling that way and contemplating what ways I could act in order to express the identified emotion in a manner that is both genuine and constructive (I am much more comfortable with logic than emotionality).
When it comes to interpersonal expression of one’s emotions, one can try the same thing with a bit of extra roleplaying. First, I might walk through how I was feeling and how I expressed it, then pretend that I am the person who I expressed it to and try to identify how I would feel in their place and why (every other person is another human being with their own hopes, dreams, desires, and emotions).
An extremely important thing to keep in mind when working through past experiences is to be kind to your past self and past people that you interacted with. Malice is not a very common thing to encounter, so try not to assume it.
The idea, overall, is that by going through exercises like those, one builds their comfort and familiarity with their own emotions and are better able to self-regulate and express themselves in a manner that will lead to more healthy outcomes.
Going back to the first bit of yours that I quoted, if you did indeed express yourself in a healthy and appropriate fashion, splitting ways may have, in fact, been the healthiest outcome for you. Being with a partner that does not value you for who you are (our emotions are part of ourselves), is not something that is psychologically healthy or conducive to a stable relationship.
