It surprises me so that any functioning democracy isn’t automatically socialist.
It infuriates me that our countries are called „democracies“. Why is our economy not democratic than? The economy is mostly ruled like any feudal empire.
Well, it just goes back to the root of the word. Ancient Greece, where the word democracy comes from, was far from what we would call a democracy nowadays.
Not only did they own slaves (who obviously could not vote) but the only people that could vote, as far as I remember, were landed men. If you were not a man, or did not own land, you could not vote.
But yeah, I agree with your point.
Because the bourgeois were happy to get power when they were excluded from it in the monarchy, but they are very much not happy to leave peasants get any power.
Francr history is very telling of this. The question of how the elections should be made was a hot topic. Representative democracy is something the bourgeoisie wants because it allows it to stay in power. Because the bourgeois are better armed to be elected than the people. Rousseau warned of this even before the first French revolution.
I’m sure the US revolution went the same way. The crazy US voting system looks very much like it was crafted for the bourgeois to stay keep all the power.
That’s the central question of Reform or Revolution, and why the majority of Leftists believe Reform to be too unlikely to outright impossible, and therefore Revolution the correct path. Rosa Luxemburg wrote about it in Reform or Revolution.
But why is reform not happening?
To greatly simplify a complex and still contested issue, Capitalist States are designed to prevent it. Using the US as an example, the two party FPTP system is designed to prevent third parties from winning, leaving the only 2 parties that can gain the bulk of Capitalist support. Even in the event of Leftists winning, the Military will often coup the leader with the help of the US, like Allende in Chile.
Most of them are, to limited degrees. America has the Post Office, interstate roadways, public education for children, public libraries, and many other government services that are fundamentally socialist in nature.
We don’t call them that because of propaganda. And many in government (especially on the right) work very hard to destroy those systems because they are socialist and empower workers.
The idea of letting the “free market” manage these things is insane and always leads to bad outcomes, we have tried this before. People who say “economic planning doesn’t work” only exist because economic planning allowed them to live freely and be educated enough to form those big words instead of being locked to the land they were born on as peasant workers.
Words I can agree to.
This is really just a very specific type of socialism, as indicated by Lenin being here; an authoritarian who killed other socialists. This is about ML.
The first and last panels are right, but, for example, according to this post Anarcho-Communists don’t exist. They don’t believe in “evolving to a point” as the third panel says, they believe in jumping straight to that point. Also, Libertarian Socialists wouldn’t really be fond of “elected commities” controlling things, as the second panelsl talks about; maybe electing people into leadership positions inside of a company/cooperative, or maybe even having unions make those decisions, but nothing above that.
ML would be about a vanguard party. That kind of elected council with central planning can happen without it. That vanguard party is where ML goes all wrong and tends to devolve into cult-like behavior. Edit: and not just the big one’s in Russia/China/N. Korea. Lots of smaller ML groups devolve into cult-like behavior, too.
I do agree, though, that the second panel is still too specific. There are many ways to organize the workers, and that second panel is far too narrow.
It is very clear that it’s about Socialism, so leaving AnComms out is fair.
Vanguard politics consistently lead to a new different hierarchy that is just as bad as the current hierarchy is my problem. Leninism just sucks. The peers who said he sucked were right. Leninism leads to Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Pot, etc. When people try to scare the shit out of us by acting like socialism is more dangerous than capitalism we have Lenin to blame for thinking anyone could have the strength to wield power without being depraved by it.
Hierarchical societies just don’t work. And I won’t apologize for saying Bolshevism sucks and isn’t even really communism, its just a more weirdly shaped version of colonialism
This is the conclusion I’ve come to since reading the State and Revolution. The people who are capable of overthrowing the current system aren’t likely to be the same people capable of keeping true to an approach that’s legitimately socialist. There are problems with reformism as well, as it can result in an endless series of small concessions to distract from an equally endless series of measured power grabs.
If I take what I read of Marx and Engels as likely to be accurately predictive, my conclusion has to be that the circumstances they’re discussing haven’t occurred yet. Basically, Lenin jumped the gun with his support of imposing a revolution and a dictatorship of the proletariat. The power structure it creates is too centralized to achieve its goals.
This would suggest to me that if Marx and Engels are correct, a spontaneous and universal proletariat uprising is probably still down the road somewhere. Basically, we see hints at this state reflected in the microcosm of revolution, but have yet to see the circumstances that cause an actual change of prioritization and autonomy rather than simply a changing of the guard.
AnComms are socialists, though. As are communists, and all anarchists who are not AnCaps, but those aren’t even really anarchists.
Socialism is just about workers controlling the means of production; how you get there, the styles and forms of leadership, and all other things, are where all subgroups differ. The same way that in capitalism you can have Soc-Dems, Liberals, Libertarian Capitalists, Fascists, etc.
AnComms are under the socialist umbrella, but the comic isn’t delving into every single thing that’s under that umbrella, because it’s not 600 pages long.
Right, instead is it’s delving specifically into ML and making it sound like that is specifically what socialism is; it’s not. And it sounds like you agree, so… I really don’t get what your point is. Sounds like you’re arguing for the sake of arguing.
They included a picture of Picard too, should I assume this is ML-utopianism and just shut down listening completely?
Also, I’m an anarchist and don’t believe in “jumping to the point.” We’re not all teenagers with no concept of how societies work. We’re opposed to the State and any form of imposed hierarchy. That I’m opposed to the State today doesn’t mean I don’t vote or that I’m just waiting around for the spirit of Good Anarchism to posses every person on Earth suddenly.
Like any reasonable person with an ideology, I make plans to spread my ideas to more people over time. The capitalist state isnt going to auddenly collapse into anarchy and if it did it woukd be terrible because other parts of the collapsing state are going to form monarchies, fascist authoritarian fortresses, and many other balkanized microstates. It would be the worst possible outcome for anarchists!
No, our goal is to enact socialism. Then to whither away the state apparatus into communism. Then to whither away the global hierarchy in favor of self-determination and negotiation.
In no universe do serious people think: Step 1: destroy all governance. Step 2: ???. Step 3: Anarchist utopia.
Also, I’m an anarchist and don’t believe in “jumping to the point.
[…]
No, our goal is to enact socialism. Then to whither away the state apparatus into communism. Then to whither away the global hierarchy in favor of self-determination and negotiation.
Then, by definition, you’re a Marxist, you’re literally summarising Marxist theory. Anarchists don’t believe in going through that middle step.
In no universe do serious people think: Step 1: destroy all governance. Step 2: ???. Step 3: Anarchist utopia.
If you want to see how an anarchist revolution works, go look up Catalonia and the CNT-FAI, Anarchist Ukraine or the Zapatistas.
Then it sounds like you’re not really an anarchist, much less AnComm 🤷
Care to explain what the difference between a communist and an anarcho-communist is, then? Communists, such as ML, are the ones who believe in slowly eroding the state, anarchists believe in side stepping the state and growing from grassroots movements. That’s sort of, ya know, the entire difference?
Anarchist groups exist and have existed through history, and they don’t typically believe in “destroy all governance”, they believe in, like I said, growing from alternative, independent, grassroots movements.
Sounds like you are just a communist, which is fine, but you’re not an anarchist.
Good comment. Whether Marxist or Anarchist, goals must be built towards, and cannot be vibed into existence.
(Said the dude from .ml)
I really don’t mean to be rude, but both you and the other user seem to have no concept of anarchism. I mean, what you said straight up makes no sense. Marxists and AnComms both have the same end goal, so what do you think the difference between them is?
Anarchist societies and groups exists and have existed throughout history; they didn’t have to be “build towards” by taking control of the government first.
And please don’t be telling me why you like or don’t like anarchism; I’m arguing about what it is. Whether you like or think is viable is an entire different conversation.
Marxists and AnComms both have the same end goal, so what do you think the difference between them is?
They do not. AnComms want horizontalism as the end goal, Marxists want central planning and elected councils. Anarchists believe all hierarchy to inherently be an issue, while Marxists don’t, and rely on central planning as a core concept for economic organization. I read both Anarchist and Marxist theory, despite being a Marxist, because Anarchists do make good points from time to time that can be adapted and learned from.
Anarchist societies and groups exists and have existed throughout history; they didn’t have to be “build towards” by taking control of the government first.
Anarchism doesn’t just happen or fall into place. How do you believe the US, for example, will arrange itself into horizontal networks of Mutual Aid? By building them up. You seem to have no concept of Anarchist praxis in the modern era, you can’t vibe Anarchism into being.
And please don’t be telling me why you like or don’t like anarchism; I’m arguing about what it is. Whether you like or think is viable is an entire different conversation.
Absolutely, I don’t intend to engage in dogmatic sectarianism. Anarchists are my comrades against Capitalism and Imperialism, and if an Anarchist movement was spearheading the revolution, I would fall in line and support that mass movement, because only a mass movement can enact change.
They do not.
Marxists are communists, for whom the end goal is a stateless, moneyless, classless, society. What do you think stateless means?
AnComms want horizontalism as the end goal
And as the process. Which is what separates them from other communists.
Anarchism doesn’t just happen or fall into place. How do you believe the US, for example, will arrange itself into horizontal networks of Mutual Aid? By building them up. You seem to have no concept of Anarchist praxis in the modern era, you can’t vibe Anarchism into being.
Building them up through grassroots movements. They don’t happen by taking control of the government and creating “elected committees” who then “plan production”, which is what the comic talks about doing (even adding a picture of Lenin), and which the other user - and you by extension - defended.
Marxists are communists, for whom the end goal is a stateless, moneyless, society. What do you think stateless means?
Good question. Marx specifically referred to the State as the mechanisms within government by which one class asserts its power, not the entire government. Engels elaborates on this, and explains the “whithering away” of the state:
“The proletariat seizes from state power and turns the means of production into state property to begin with. But thereby it abolishes itself as the proletariat, abolishes all class distinctions and class antagonisms, and abolishes also the state as state. Society thus far, operating amid class antagonisms, needed the state, that is, an organization of the particular exploiting class, for the maintenance of its external conditions of production, and, therefore, especially, for the purpose of forcibly keeping the exploited class in the conditions of oppression determined by the given mode of production (slavery, serfdom or bondage, wage-labor). The state was the official representative of society as a whole, its concentration in a visible corporation. But it was this only insofar as it was the state of that class which itself represented, for its own time, society as a whole: in ancient times, the state of slave-owning citizens; in the Middle Ages, of the feudal nobility; in our own time, of the bourgeoisie. When at last it becomes the real representative of the whole of society, it renders itself unnecessary. As soon as there is no longer any social class to be held in subjection, as soon as class rule, and the individual struggle for existence based upon the present anarchy in production, with the collisions and excesses arising from this struggle, are removed, nothing more remains to be held in subjection — nothing necessitating a special coercive force, a state. The first act by which the state really comes forward as the representative of the whole of society — the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society — is also its last independent act as a state. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies down of itself. The government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The state is not ’abolished’. It withers away. This gives the measure of the value of the phrase ’a free people’s state’, both as to its justifiable use for a long time from an agitational point of view, and as to its ultimate scientific insufficiency; and also of the so-called anarchists’ demand that the state be abolished overnight.”
This is not the Anarchist definition of the State, best described as a monopoly on violence. For Anarchists, elected councils are examples of vertical hierarchy that ought be opposed, as compared to Marxists who see it as a necessary tool for administration. This is the transformation from “the government of people” to the “administration of things,” ie government and councils and committees exist to fulfill managerial roles, while Anarchists seek full horizontalism and avoid managerial roles as they believe them to lead to corruption and coercion.
Think Star Trek vs. The Disposessed.
And as the process. Which is what separates it from other communists.
Yes, I am familiar with Means/Ends Unity. I may disagree with the importance of it, but I am not here to promote infighting or sectarianism, I am here to explain Marxism.
Building them up through grassroots movements. They don’t happen by taking control of the government and creating “elected committees” who then “plan production”, which is what the comic talks about doing (even adding a picture of Lenin), and which the other user - and you by extension - defended.
Yes, you build up Anarchism, a network of horizontal structures, from the bottom up. You build up Marxism by building dual power via councils, unions, and other democratic structures that can replace the Capialist state. These are separate concepts with similar but distinct goals.
Yes, you build up Anarchism, a network of horizontal structures, from the bottom up. You build up Marxism by building dual power via councils, unions, and other democratic structures that can replace the Capialist state. These are separate concepts with similar but distinct goals.
Right, but so it seems we agree? This post’s explanation of socialism excludes anarchism, among other forms of socialism, which was my criticism. It only focuses on ML, but titles itself “What the heck is Socialism?”
Perhaps I expressed my self wrong at some point, or misinterpreted something, but that’s the point I was trying to make from the start.
(Said the dude from .ml)
I really don’t mean to be rude, but both you and the other user seem to have no concept of anarchism.
Downvotes are likely because of both of these statements. Judge people by their actions, not by where they come from. I’ve seen Cowbee consistently acting civilly and in good faith here and elsewhere, including interactions that I’ve had with him. And that’s in the face of frequent ad hominems, like the thinly veiled one that you put in parentheses.
I don’t see eye-to-eye with him or other M-Ls on a lot of things, especially as I’m roughly an anarcho-syndicalist. But that’s really no reason to be rude. Try some positivity and you might build more bridges.
you and the other user seem to have no concept of anarchism.
This is a bit puzzling as both seem to be describing forms of anarchism. There are a multitude of different variations. Could you perhaps expound a bit on what form of anarchism you are meaning? Can you share any extant anarchic societies that you are aware of that are members of the global community? From my knowledge and experience, anarchic communities without agreed, intentional direction frequently implode either from external pressures (ex. capitalist or M-L military intervention, state actor infiltration) or personality conflicts.
It was just a tongue in cheek comment based on .ml being known for having a lot of tankies, which are not usually very friendly to anarchists; it was not meant as an insult.
As for anarchist societies that are part of the global community, that’s a bit of a Herculean task since no state will ever want to acknowledge a stateless society; but that doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. For a current one, you can look to the Zapatistas, which I’ve heard about but admittedly don’t know much about; and for other ones, you can look at the anarchists in Catalonia during the civil war, and Korean People’s Association in Manchuria around the same time.
Catalonia was stuck between Franco (supplied by Nazis and Mussolini, even officers) and the Republicans/communist party (supplied by the USSR, even officers), and not only did the Nazis and USSR take plenty of other territories, but before the war the Republicans, which were liberal, had won elections; so it can’t be claimed it failed because they were anarchists (and non-Soviet socialists and communists), especially with how well they did for a while with so few resources.
Manchuria was also caught between Imperial Japan and communist Korea, and finally fell with the Japanese invasion. Japan not only conquered Korea (which was obviously not all anarchist), but also a lot of other territory and killed a lot of other people, so the failure cannot be attributed to anarchism then either.
Good examples and getting at what my point was. External forces (generally capitalist but also the Red Army did its fair share) continually besiege anarchic societies. Without alliances and reaching societal critical mass, anarchic (and other socialist and/or communist) societies are too vulnerable to interference. Rojava (different SDF) has already seen some of this with efforts to undermine their position having already taken place (ex. Trump’s government negotiating some disarmament then abandoning then to Turkish artillery/airstrikes).
It was just a tongue in cheek comment based on .ml being known for having a lot of tankies, which are not usually very friendly to anarchists; it was not meant as an insult.
Lemmy.ml obviously leans heavily Marxist, but I also pick it because it has a lot of federation with other instances. I have another account on another instance if I want to just chill out with Leftists of all stripes, under the same username, so I can pick what I want at the time.
I do want to point out that it is normally Anarchists picking fights with Marxists, not the other way around. This is down to Anarchism generally being seen favorably by Marxists, just disagreeing on the idea that vertical organization must be opposed and that there must be Means/Ends unity. This is because Marxists are Dialectical Materialists.
Anarchists, however, see any amount of vertical organizing as bad in and of itself, so you see lots of anti-Marxism among Anarchists. While Marxists generally see Anarchists as having a noble goal with less realistic chances at success, Anarchists tend to see Marxists as better than Capitalists, but ultimately still advocating for an “oppressive” system. This is where “tankie” and “red-fash” usually comes in, while the absolute harshest slur for Anarchist is “Anarkiddie,” and it’s reserved for new leftistd picking Anarchism because they are disgruntled with their current system, but are also in alignment with the western narrative surrounding Marxism and Marxist movements. It’s condescending, and I don’t do it because it’s sectarian nonsense that reduces Leftist cohesion, but it’s a stark contrast to the way some Anarchists percieve Marxists.
As long as you enter Marxist spaces without attacking Marxism, you’ll likely see no trouble even advocating for Anarchism, but the reverse is rarely true. Some few Anarchists even accuse some Marxists as betraying Marxism, as though Marx were an advocate of Anarchism, which any amount of reading can readily disprove entirely.
I do think reading about a meeting between Lenin and Kropotkin is extremely valuable. In this transcript of the meeting, Kropotkin and Lenin show calm, mutual respect and Kropotkin himself describes his aged heart as warmed by the October Revolution, but tries to advocate for a more cooperative-focused approach, while Lenin takes a more hardline stance in favor of protecting the nascent Socialist society. They leave the meeting in disagreement, but on friendly and respectful terms.
Well, firstly, I think .ml doesn’t just lean heavily Marxist, it leans heavily Marxist-Leninist, which is different; secondly, it specifically has a lot of tankies, which is the specific thing I pointed out. Not sure why you would want to equate yourself with that, being that tankies usually refers to people who defend repressive, imperialist, genocidal, actions of madmen. The origin of the word is to describe British communists who defended the use of tanks against protesters in the Hungarian Revolution, and is also colloquial used to describe people who defend Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Kim Jung Un, and their regimes, and more recently to describe people whose views often are based on just being anti-west, to the point of supported the fascist state of Russia, for example. So again, I’m not sure why you’re equating yourself with that, but just remember you were the one to put on the shoe, I didn’t force it on you.
And I’m sorry, but the idea that it’s usually Anarchist picking fights with others is ludicrous, but it actually is the perspective that I expect from tankies, because for a tankie the idea of “leftist unity” is to fall in line with tankie values, and to kill or imprison anyone who does not fall in line. Marxists and MLs in general far outnumber anarchists in online spaces, and one thing you can often see is tankies and MLs in general bursting into anarchist discussions, and being anything less than civil. I have seen anarchists advocating for anarchism in anarchist communities that were in a ML instance or website, get flooded with comments from MLs. You can even be banned in .ml by just being critical of Russia or China; given that anarchists will always be critical of the state, I don’t really see how you can in good faith claim that “you’ll likely see no trouble even advocating for Anarchism”.
Historically, I find your comment even more revisionist. The USSR not only killed and imprisoned anarchists, but it also refused to support anarchists and other socialists in Catalonia during the revolution, and eventually took control of Catalonia - done by the Spanish Communist Party, which was serving USSR interests and even Russian officers - and began prosecuting them, for no reason other than that they had fought in the POUM against fascists, instead of serving under the communist party. The Korean People’s Association in Manchuria also suffered a lot of attacks at the hands of the Korean communists, who nowadays lead North Korea. And of course, there’s also the Black Army of Ukraine, that merely wished to see itself independent of the USSR; but of course, for MLs the right of self-determination goes out the window when MLs are the ones trying to subjugate you. All of this, is where the term “red-fash” comes from.
I also don’t really remember seeing an anarchist be that critical of Marxists, as I have of MLs, which are different; I’m not sure why you keep trying to merge the two into one, as there are plenty of people who think of themselves as Marxist but not ML, and others who are ML and think Lenin evolved Marxists ideas a lot and that Marxists are essentially living in the past and haven’t read enough theory.
In short: MLs, and tankies specifically, have historically heavily persecuted anarchists and wanted them dead, but asking for people to fall in line or be shot is not fucking “unity”. Not so different from when Liberal politicians ask for left unity by getting leftists to vote for them while making no compromises, but at least they are less likely to take you to a prison camp or shoot you in the head.
I’m really not interested in having a conversation with someone who is interested in sweeping all of this under the rug and pretend that anarchists just get prickly about MLs and tankies purely based on theory, and who wants to equate Marxists, MLs, and tankies as being all the same. I’ve even met MLs who distance themselves from tankies, but you claim to be a Marxist and still choose to run defense for them. Well, that’s your choice, but don’t complain when you get pegged for one, which is definitely how I see you now, and I really don’t have in interest with talking with you anymore after this.
I wonder if some common pitfalls like too much party control over committees, lying about quotas for financial gain, and the vulnerabilities of a society in revolt could be squeezed in, or perhaps covered in a second image.
Orthodox Marxism isn’t always enough, and is not beyond revision and improvements (hence the many neo-marxists). Critical Theorists have addressed Marxism as well as Capitalism after all.
That said, the post is good and educational as is, and has my up vote.
See you at the first plenary session comarades!
I would love to see a policy where there is a variable tax rate on companies based on employees satisfaction.
If a company has a largely unhappy workforce they would be taxed most of their profits.
If a company has a extremely happy workforce then it can reduce the taxation rate below the standard rate. And employees can still vote on this 2 years after termination.
It incentivises companies to invest more in the employees wellbeing, and punishes companies that take practice in unsustainable hiring and mass layoffs later.
If it is unavoidable that a company needs to downsize, they would be incentivised to help employees find new employment.
I’m sure there is a large issue I’m not seeing with this but I’m pretty fond of the idea.
There is a simpler way to do this, and it’s a worker cooperative. Workers own the business and they democratically decide what the business does. There is no separation between the leadership and the workforce. Maintaining that separation will always result in conflict because the interests of the owners will never be the same as those of the workers.
How is that simpler?
It sounds way more complex to logistically set up a system like that. Best case is a lot of regulation needed, worse case is a complete overhaul of the economy.
It already exists. See for example Mondragon
The major issue is that it has to compete on a global market that’s exploitative.
100% agree with the exploitative global market.
Also, that was an interesting read and a great example of an ideal company’s practice.
Though it was a bit vague on where the start up funding came from. Which is what I was most curious about (and my main reason I consider the practice complex to implement)
Mondragon seems to be founded by a generous man that created the company from the ground up with these principles in mind, but unfortunately most people with the resources to this kind of business do not have such great ideals (and for the most part, they have these resources because they don’t have them and thus exploited workers)
How would a business take off the ground in this scenario without a selfless benefactor?
Also it’s a much different beast to convert an already established company like amazon and convert that to the same system. Mainly in that the owners and shareholders do not want to give up their investment for nothing.
What are the options then? Steal the company from the amazon investors in spite of the capital they invested to the company? Or pay them off?(would be expensive if going by market value)
Stealing would still be dystopian. I have no love for amazon investors, but imagine a lovely small family-owned business that invested all their life savings into it, before being taken from them because they hired some teenagers to help them for the summer.
It’s complex, and not likely compatible with the current economy (unless the rich bastard’s hearts grow 3 sizes large), but it would be nice if this business type was more widespread.
I consider the tax rate suggestion a good way to integrate the employee vote with capitalism. it still “survival of the fittest” but the “fittest” would be a profitable company that looks after it’s employees.
Yeah, it’s not an easy problem to solve. As someone who is mainly versed in the socialist tradition I view class conflict as the primary impedement to social progress. And any system that incorporates competition will, in my view, generate class conflict. It’s all or nothing: you can’t have a cooperative structure operating within a competetive framework.
In practical terms, this has meant a lot of different things over the past few centuries. Nobody has found the correct answer. In the present system, the first step is unionization and increasing class consciousness among the labor force. The second step is coordinated action via targeted mass action (think cross-industry work stoppages that disrupt production and logistics). Essentially you cripple the owner class at large by disrupting their profits and force them to make concessions. You could have a gradual move towards cooperative ownership by forcing down the ratio of CEO to average worker pay. You could force the passage of the types of tax reform that you are arguing for. You could force the passage of social welfare reform.
But ultimately this movement would have to be worker-led, because the ruling class will always invent new ways to entrench themselves in power. John Maynard Keynes referred to the “euthenasia of the rentier class”. In other words, they would humanely pass into the dust bin of history because they would no longer exist as a class, because the workers would not tolerate them.
Trusting pure socialism to not accidentally starve its people through inept and lazy government decisions is like buying a PC with Windows 11 and hoping you won’t see ads because you trust the closed source code.
Yes, you can do this… I guess?
Everything socialism wants can be accomplished with market capitalism, AI, and UBI. We just need to get rid of the idiot religious folks voting against their interest (“oh no! trans people make baby jesus cry!”) and get rid of the liberals who want make government bigger and bigger and bigger (“Let’s put a tax on filling out the form! And make a new waiting period for something!”), and then we’d finally have a functioning society.
We’ve been having market capitalism and IA for YEARS, why are we still having less and less buying power, life expectancy, healthcare access and so on?
We just need to elect politicians who provide large amounts of UBI. The problem in doing this is we would need to also limit the amount people could reproduce so that food doesn’t run out in 20 years after people start fucking like rabbits. Doing this would be hard and probably require constitutional amendments since the wealthy have made procreation a constitutional right and the poor are too stupid to realize unlimited reproduction leads to a tragedy of the common in which those that endure the most unhappiness in the rat race are most easily able to reproduce. There would have to be Chinese-style awareness of populations and some penalties for not adhering to reproduction limits if the population grew too fast, and these penalties would have to be sufficient to deter people. Market capitalism and mild green (hampered a bit by UBI) along with huge taxes on environmental externalities is a much better way to allocate resources than just having a government committee benevolently decide things resulting in starvation later because people who are chosen for committees often say what is political rather than the truth of nature.
Because decay is a natural state of the universe.
The exploitation will continue until people stop believing that the sky god will reward them later for abstaining from anal and toiling all day in the fields.
Everything socialism wants can be accomplished with market capitalism, AI, and UBI. We just need to get rid of the idiot religious folks voting against their interest (“oh no! trans people make baby jesus cry!”) and get rid of the liberals who want make government bigger and bigger and bigger (“Let’s put a tax on filling out the form! And make a new waiting period for something!”), and then we’d finally have a functioning society.
Why billionaires will let that happens under capitalism if that benefits them? You can’t fix capitalism, it works perfectly for people that owns the capital.
In a democracy people could just stop voting in Republican politicians who say “don’t do anal so you go to heaven” while they fuck the poor and stop voting in big spending Democrats who want to make the government as large, inefficient, and wasteful as possible.
If people are too stupid to vote in representatives because jesus doesn’t approve of anal and Democrats need to expand the size of government, then how the fuck would they be smart enough to coordinate a proletariat revolution, much less enact rules that won’t completely fuck themselves over once in power due to an ignorance of the laws of nature?
These are people who are upset trans people take hormones because it will upset the imaginary skygod, who only created man and woman, since intersex people also literally don’t exist in their idiot pea brains. Do you understand the extreme pea-brain stupidity of the average religious person? They believe jesus lives on a cloud, some of them think the world is flat, the level of moronitude is next-level.
It’s a good point in a dictatorship, but not when a large part of the populace is delusional gullible and stupid.
wtf you talking about the world is bigger than republican and democrats and you have countries where religion is not that big with signs of the problems of late stage capitalism.
You can’t have all people smart in capitalism without free good education, if education is a commodity the poor people become ignorant and easier to manipulate by the people who own the capital and they will manipulate them to vote for what is best for the capital. You can remove religion and the same problem will continue, you only solve people voting with the ass with education and that is really difficult within capitalism, like I said before billionaires will not let that happens.
it’s a decent point, so decent that i have no comeback at all
ooo. i like a lot of what you’re saying, except that i think the market capitalism part should be less vital. i’m more in favor of a resource based economy which is overseen by AI. markets would become more of a hobbyist endeavor. some people need to have a little bit more than others and can’t help but express their type A personalities, so the markets are there for them to feel like they earned a little more than other people, but without the ability to become billionaires.
Also, UBI seems like a transitional phase solution. in a well regulated resource based economy, currency eventually becomes a vestigial appendage. i mean, it’s just a middle man of exchange now, and we’re only exchanging things because we can’t figure out how to distribute necessary commodities and incentivize people. i believe in a resource based economy where almost all needs are met and education in humanities is emphasized, people will be happy to do their 2.5 hours of weekly labor to keep a utopian system running.
We just need to get rid of the idiot religious folks voting against their interest
How do you propose doing that? Murdering them en masse?
I am not proposing that, it’s an exercise in futility. You can’t deprogram a cult member easily and even if you killed them all, more would replace them. You have to accept these idiots as a natural part of society, like skunks and porcupines, like an eclipse or a tsunami, and respond accordingly.
I am saying if they were all completely and utterly purged from society than the world would be a better place, however.
Why are you saying that?
Trusting pure socialism to not accidentally starve its people through inept and lazy government decisions is like buying a PC with Windows 11 and hoping you won’t see ads because you trust the closed source code.
To clarify here, your example is what actually happens under capitalism. Literally, not figuratively. F(L)OSS is pretty anarchic/communist in nature.
Everything socialism wants can be accomplished with market capitalism, AI, and UBI.
Hypothetically, maybe, however, the current hyper-commercial capitalism shows no signs of allowing UBI or passing on any benefit from AI and other automation to workers. There’s been a complete disconnect between productivity and worker compensation since the 70s, with the capital class pocketing every penny of the difference.
it’s not a bad point. you would just think with information free because of the internet, the lower classes would vote their economic interests instead of “these rich people ALSO think trans people are from satan, let me vote for them on this wedge issue and fuck myself economically”
Indeed. I really wish that evidence showed that to be the case, instead, it’s the fallacy that Chicago School economics falls for. Humans are NOT rational actors, at least, not all the time. There are also anti-social actors involved attempting to game the system for their benefit at others’ expense. Lots of things to account for where current economic systems abjectly fail to provide a fair and equitable society, often intentionally so.
Well, people, including political leaders are corrupt, so this would never be practically possible, since people would just abuse the system and hoard resources, as always.
How?
We currently live in a system where the owner class (capitalists) makes several times what you do and horde it, while you can barely afford to live.
I really don’t understand how your main criticism of a system where the workers make the decisions and take the profits, is that the workers might also horde the relatively smaller amounts that they produced. It’s still several times better than what we have now.
I just ment to say, nothing will change, no matter the political system.
The difference is that, in socialism, hoarding resources is illegal and prosecutable, whereas in capitalism it’s legal and encourage. Corruption is only defined when it touches the public institutions. Every behaviour that you’d consider corrupt in the public sector, is obvious common practice and even encouraged in the private one.
In the public sector, hiring an acquaintance or family member based on trust is illegal and punishable. In the private sector I’ll hire whoever I want for my company.
In the public sector, having a service done for your company such as a renovation of the office, if you hire based off friendship or trust, you are punished, you’re supposed to be efficient and impartial. In the private company it’s expected that you’d hire your friend to do the renovation.
In the public sector, lowering the wages of the employees to higher your own, is so obviously corrupt that it barely ever happens at all, and when it happens it’s absolute scandal. In the private sector we just call it “labour is paid based on your replaceability”.
The list of behaviours that we’d find corrupt and morally reprehensible (and legally punishable) in the public sector, and totally fine in the private sector, is endless. Can’t complain about corruption in the private sector when there’s not such thing, amirite? At least I’d want a system in which corrupt people are prosecuted and not applauded.
Well, that is true.
News flash, people have been abusing the system and hoarding resources for a while
I think that’s their point.
Is a planned economy an inherent part of socialism? That seems like the biggest red flag (lol) in this comic. All sorts of incentive mismatches there.
“Democracy at work, too” is like the biggest pitch for socialism, “government deciding what businesses can exist” is the biggest pitch against. A tightrope to walk, for sure.
It’s not, just read about Anarcho-Syndycalists, or Anarcho-Communists, to get different perspectives.
This is post is about ML specifically, only really the first and last panels are about socialism in general.
Is a planned economy an inherent part of socialism? That seems like the biggest red flag (lol) in this comic. All sorts of incentive mismatches there.
For Marxists, absolutely. Marx heavily critiqued the profit motive and the dangers of producing to fulfil greed instead of need. For Syndicalists, Market Socialists, etc? Perhaps not.
“Democracy at work, too” is like the biggest pitch for socialism, “government deciding what businesses can exist” is the biggest pitch against. A tightrope to walk, for sure.
Workplace democracy is an improvement, but Marxists will argue insufficient alone in combatting class society.
What’s your issue with Central Planning, other than vibes?
What’s your issue with Central Planning, other than vibes?
I’m not a theorist obviously, but it seems like it’s inherently going to be a limited number of decision makers who can’t possibly know everything, and they become a bottleneck to business creation at best, a corruption machine at worst. I know I wouldn’t trust the government of half (or more but my point is, Republicans) the current US states to decide what business are allowed to exist.
I know the retort is of course that we have corruption now, but I’d think if we’re theorizing, there’s a better way to reduce extant corruption than introducing a new vector for even more corruption. And there’s a way to harness the power of people starting small businesses freely without letting those businesses become unregulated behemoths.
Like just set the criteria you would be telling the Central Planning Authority to prioritize, and do that with regulation. Set an ownership tax so that as a business gets bigger the ownership moves away from the founder and into the public trust.
I’m not a theorist obviously, but it seems like it’s inherently going to be a limited number of decision makers who can’t possibly know everything, and they become a bottleneck to business creation at best, a corruption machine at worst. I know I wouldn’t trust the government of half (or more but my point is, Republicans) the current US states to decide what business are allowed to exist.
Advocates of Central Planning advocate for rungs, not just 5 dudes and some excel spreadsheets. There would be factory level planners, local planners, regional planners, state planners, country planners, and international planners. Nobody will no everything, but they will know their own areas inputs and outputs.
I know the retort is of course that we have corruption now, but I’d think if we’re theorizing, there’s a better way to reduce extant corruption than introducing a new vector for even more corruption. And there’s a way to harness the power of people starting small businesses freely without letting those businesses become unregulated behemoths.
Why would it be more corrupt? Why do you believe Small Businesses are fine? Markets themselves inevitably result in those unregulated behemoths, it’s better to have a cohesive whole that is thoroughly regulated and democratically controlled.
Like just set the criteria you would be telling the Central Planning Authority to prioritize, and do that with regulation. Set an ownership tax so that as a business gets bigger the ownership moves away from the founder and into the public trust.
I recommend reading Wage Labor and Capital for more information on why the Profit Motive and Capitalist Production itself to be bad.
Why would it be more corrupt? Why do you believe Small Businesses are fine?
It’s more concentrated power. The opportunity for more corruption. Sure, they could be philosopher kings at first but having the control means someone can have the control corruptly.
I don’t necessarily believe all small businesses are fine, but their interests compete with each other, and they’re small, by definition. And we already have regulations that apply to all businesses, there is democratic control in some sense. So I’m not worried about how the corruption of one small business owner would warp society or national interest.
Markets themselves inevitably result in those unregulated behemoths,
I agree with this premise and then not the conclusion. Inevitably, all behemoths were once small businesses. But is the correct intervention to stop the small businesses from forming in the first place, or to prevent the ones that get big from utilizing that size in an asocial way? You could socialize businesses of a certain size, for example. You could set rules for worker-elected board members, or whatever.
It’s more concentrated power. The opportunity for more corruption. Sure, they could be philosopher kings at first but having the control means someone can have the control corruptly.
Why does that mean it cannot be accounted for democratically?
I don’t necessarily believe all small businesses are fine, but their interests compete with each other, and they’re small, by definition. And we already have regulations that apply to all businesses, there is democratic control in some sense. So I’m not worried about how the corruption of one small business owner would warp society or national interest.
Nothing is static, they will eventually grow into monopoly and corruption.
I agree with this premise and then not the conclusion. Inevitably, all behemoths were once small businesses. But is the correct intervention to stop the small businesses from forming in the first place, or to prevent the ones that get big from utilizing that size in an asocial way? You could socialize businesses of a certain size, for example. You could set rules for worker-elected board members, or whatever.
The correct path is to avoid the problem entirely via Socialism.
That sounds like Market Socialism by another name.
What’s your issue with Central Planning, other than vibes?
billions dead of starvation every time its been attempted
Amazing.
You do know starvation rates lowered over time every time central planning has been put in place, right? You do know Capitalist countries also plan, correct?
I’d argue that yes, it is, because markets entail private ownership, which goes against the basic notion of socialism
The closest you can get to socialism with the market system is worker’s cooperative - but market forces do not stop accumulation of power in the form of land and capital, as well as mergers and acquisitions. At the end of the day, you just reset capitalism for a while if you give businesses a free reign.
If you want to maintain a market system under socialism you need to separate it from public production. We would need to democratically decide what is a public good (e.g. housing, food, medicine, etc.) and what is a market good (essentially luxury goods). The private market would also have to be heavily regulated to prevent capital accumulation and associated power concentration. It’s a really difficult problem.
One of the reasons the Soviet economy failed is because computers were not advanced enough in the 1950s-80s to automate the kind of consumer goods production that a command economy would require to be able to compete with a market system. I think if we tried this again today we would have an easier time of it, and if you look at a large vertically integrated corporation like Walmart, they’ve more or less figured it out already.
I agree that automatization would greatly help.planned economies and that was one of the issues with Soviet economy in particular. Just too many variables to control manually. Nowadays, corporations do exactly that.
I wonder how can market be regulated in a way that doesn’t create capital accumulation. Isn’t that the very point of starting an enterprise?
Why would a democratically planned economy be a bad thing? How is it more democratic that capitalist owners decide which businesses can exist, rather than the people collectively decide so?
My concern is that I cannot see a democratically planned economy implemented in a way which doesn’t sacrifice individualism of people .
Democracy isn’t strictly “freedom” on its own, but it is a powerful tool to protect our “individual freedoms” by ensuring our leaders act in our best interests.
But unless everyone has the exact same mind set that means that the majority will always drown out the minority and so the minority voices will be forced to conform to what the majority want.
We are mostly like-minded in things like what should be crimes/punishment/rights/etc(but note this wasn’t always the case): but everyone has individual preferences, like colour of shirt, a specific brand of food, video games, etc which means they need an economy where products can be created by individuals rather than decided by the majority.
If 51% of people think wearing a t-shirt with a cute dog on it is a stupid waste of time then that t-shirt doesn’t get made, and so the 49% people that did like the shirt lose out.
Also if 99% of people wanted the garbage collected, but no one wanted to work there, what happens then? Is someone forced to work there? That would be extreme, instead maybe there is more incentive to work there with more pay, but then what if lots of people wanted to work there due to this incentive who would decide who works there and therefore who owns the company?
Hyperbolic examples I know but i hope you see the point I’m trying to make.
Capitalism despite all it’s flaws can allow a single person the chance seek funding to provide a good or service and if deemed profitable (either through high demand or cheap production) then the product gets made. People can also seek the obscure products they want rather than what’s popular.
Your comment comes from a very flawed and limited understanding of what democratic planning of the economy could be. “51% of the population decided to wear a blue shirt so only blue shirts are made” isn’t at all a good representation of the possibilities of democratic planning of the economy.
Look at Amazon. Amazon is already an insanely big centrally planned economy. They have at their disposal the best engineers and computer scientists that enable such central planning that makes them an indestructible behemoth of efficiency. As soon as one client so much as clicks on a product, computer algorithms calculate the likelihood of them buying the product, and send signals to their warehouses to prepare their products for delivery, and in turn they send signals to their distributor or the manufacturer to supply or produce some more, all in the blink of an eye. The power that we, as workers, could harness if we made that ours, is unimaginably strong. Imagine a planned economy where direct input from consumers modifies the manufacturing quantities of the goods produced, without Amazon selling your data and appropriating all the surplus value of all workers in the process.
Imagine wanting to open a small business, and instead of having to be rich from the start, going to the local council to see if the community is interested in having such a business, let’s say a cafe. You make a pitch, they like they idea, and they fund your project because, after all, it will be good for the neighborhood, with a part of the money they’re allocated by the state for such purposes. You run your business in a risk-free fashion, since the community is already interested and has funded the project, and the better it works, the more money you can earn since you have productivity bonuses.
Imagine facing climate change, and making collectively as a society a 20-year plan subdivided in 5-year intervals to decarbonise the main sectors of the economy responsible for greenhouse gas emissions, all with the collaboration of experts in the science of climate change, experts in said sectors working not to maximise the profit of shareholders but for the betterment of humanity, and computer programmers managing absurd amounts of data that allow for very precise estimations of the state of the economy in 5 years time.
That’s the future I want, and it’s doable. We have the technology, we have the knowledge, we have the people. The only thing left is to eliminate the cancerous property structures of productive property.
“51% of the population decided to wear a blue shirt so only blue shirts are made” isn’t at all a good representation of the possibilities of democratic planning of the economy.
I understand it doesn’t highlight the benefits like better working conditions but I feel that it illustrates my point well in that individualism is affected negatively in a democratic planned economy and forced to conform to the majority.
While it would be nice for individuals to get funding for whatever businesses ideas they think are profitable, in reality it comes down to trying to sell a product you haven’t produced yet.
Going by your cafe example, what if there was a Diner nearby that sold some coffee/tea on its menu. You have to convince the majority that your shop is a worthwhile investment with them never even tasting the product, and even if it is low cost enough that you would still make profit.
What if there was a sub-par cafe with lazy employees already in town and you want to make a cafe that takes pride in its work. Would people want two cafes in the same town? If not then you are competing with a store without even able to sell a product of your own.
It’s ultimately the taxpayers that are taking the risk on your product instead of the individual so they won’t want to pay for a service they won’t use or care for. Even if the minority of people can make it profitable.
Maybe a hybrid system where company can be owned by both private and public funding, but the private would win as they exploit their workers to cut down costs.
Ultimately I believe people should be able to start a private business on a product they believe in, as there is more diversity in products and more freedom for creativity that way. While at the same time believe that employees should have a voice that can disrupt profitability if they are mistreated. Either via Union or otherwise.
Going by your cafe example, what if there was a Diner nearby that sold some coffee/tea on its menu. You have to convince the majority that your shop is a worthwhile investment with them never even tasting the product, and even if it is low cost enough that you would still make profit.
That problem still takes place in capitalism. It’s just that, instead of having to convince people for funding, you risk going into bankruptcy when you try your business idea.
What if there was a sub-par cafe with lazy employees already in town and you want to make a cafe that takes pride in its work. Would people want two cafes in the same town?
Great, so you run you business in capitalism, and run the other cafe into bankruptcy because that’s wonderful for everyone, very efficient and humane. How about the local council decides that the other cafe is shit, and they give a warning to the place that they need to improve the quality of their work?
It’s ultimately the taxpayers that are taking the risk on your product instead of the individual so they won’t want to pay for a service they won’t use or care for. Even if the minority of people can make it profitable.
This can very easily be compensated by bigger, not so local, councils. Maybe specialized in more weird and experimental business ideas. Located in densely-populated ideas so that one of these weirder businesses can give cover to a high amount of population.
Really, you seem to be coming up with increasingly-complicated problems on the implementation on the spot. My point is that all of these problems can be outsourced to direct democracy instead of “consumer democracy”, in a more efficient, fair, and risk-free way for everyone.
The potential for regulatory capture and corruption, as well as the inherent inefficiency of having a limited number of decision makers. I wouldn’t trust the 2028 Trump Administration to thoughtfully determine which businesses are allowed to exist for 4 years.
It’s more democratic to let anyone start a business, rather than having a gatekeeper. But more importantly I think it makes more sense to let the capitalists take the losses if their business idea sucks, and then socializing the gains once we know it works.
I’m sad that when you use the word “democracy”, the best future people can imagine is the modern American system of “democracy”…
After reading this, i now understand less about socialism.
What part is confusing?
If people who make things own them, who manages the “big picture” ideas? CEO pay tells me that requires the power of thousands of
peasantsworkers.Workers are perfectly good at self-organizing without them. “I’m the ideas guy” is stated by people who do little and should not be trusted.
This comic makes a ton of logical leaps, by which i mean that it assumes that the reader is already familiar with certain information and leaves it implied. More broadly, it seems to assume that the audience already agrees that communism is the best. I’m particularly annoyed at the second pannel describing a command economy in a very short and unconvincing way, as if the audience already knows and agrees.
I have a rudimentary knowledge of political taxonomy and this is very very confusing.
But you know what, at least it’s written in plain language. A mistake that communists often make is using their vocabulary (alienation, ideology, bourgeoisie) as if everyone knows what it means, i’m glad this isn’t the case here
Nice idea but it’s very telling that there is no mention at all of how to make this come about. The more I learn about Marx, the more he seems like Jacque Fresco and his Venus Project, just a “wouldn’t it be nice if” pie-in-the-sky idea.
The more I learn about Marx, the more he seems like Jacque Fresco and his Venus Project, just a “wouldn’t it be nice if” pie-in-the-sky idea.
Sorry, your argument is outdated by around 200 years. Engels already did an essay on the difference between scientific socialism and utopian socialism, because it was a common critique back then. It’s called, well, “Socialism: scientific and utopian”, and explains how Marxism isn’t a utopian pipedream but rather a systematic way of analysing the economy and the social relations and historical events, reacting to them, and fighting for the rights of the workers above all else. Among other things, it allowed the Russian Revolution to triumph, and it allowed the Soviets to predict the second world war 10 years before it happened (which allowed the USSR to place most of its heavy industry east of the Urals, and in turn saved the country from losing against the Nazi invasion).
your argument
I haven’t made an argument, I made a personal observation.
Engels already did an essay on the difference between …
I don’t understand any of this.
My point is that there were already conservatives 200 years ago claiming that socialism was utopian, and people like Marx and Engels proved them wrong. Lenin and Fidel, and all the workers who followed and guided them, adhering to Marxism-Leninism, successfully organized revolutions that abolished capitalism and Tsarism and turned their countries into socialist ones.
So your comment that it seems “utopian” has already been answered by Engels 150+ years ago, and confirmed wrong by Lenin and Fidel.
claiming that socialism was utopian
I didn’t claim that socialism was utopian, I pointed out that there is seemingly no proposal for how to make socialism come about, much like The Venus Project.
So your comment that it seems “utopian”
I haven’t used the word utopian. You’re putting words in my mouth. You’re so blinded by your expectations about what you think people are going to say about socialism that you literally can’t read what people are writing. Sort your shit out please.
“wouldn’t it be nice if” pie in the sky idea
How’s that not basically the definition of utopia?
that there is seemingly no proposal for how to make socialism come about
There pretty much is: create a vanguard party of Marxist intellectuals, create unions and give services to citizens in order to organise them, help them in their lives and their struggle, and educate them into class-consciousness. This makes a grassroots dual-power structure that makes workers class-conscious and politically involved as well as provides them with safety networks that they themselves maintain. When the material conditions for the revolution eventually come, the vanguard party and the grassroots organizations coalesce and take power from the bourgeoisie
How’s that not basically the definition of utopia?
LOL it’s not because that’s how concepts work.
the revolution
What revolution?
the vanguard party and the grassroots organizations coalesce and take power from the bourgeoisie
What’s the Marxist plan for preventing the people who take power from becoming the new exploiters? How do Marxists propose to overcome the fact that power corrupts?
LOL it’s not because that’s how concepts work.
You can tell that to yourself, it’s the core of what you meant, regardless of whether you want to use the specific word “utopia” or just talk about “ideal societies that won’t take place”. I’m not here to argue semantics.
What revolution?
Whichever comes. Revolutions take place periodically in different countries. French revolution, October revolution, revolutionary struggles against colonialism… All of those were revolutions, i.e. events in history with rapid radical changes in the form of governance and organisation of a system, possibly with a change in the classes of society.
What’s the Marxist plan for preventing the people who take power from becoming the new exploiters? How do Marxists propose to overcome the fact that power corrupts?
The solution is being as democratic as possible. Establishing grassroots, dual power structures early and way before the revolutions. Strong unions, neighborhood associations, social rights movements like current feminist organizations… All of those linked and in collaboration with each other and with a vanguard party of Marxist intellectuals who guide these collectives and vice-versa.
Revolution, which is an inevitability as Capitalism and by extension Imperialism continues to decay and disparity continues to rise. Marxists advocate for building dual-power so that when this revolution does occur, the former state can be replaced with democratic councils and unions that already exist.
which is an inevitability
What makes you say that?
Competition and improvements in production result in increasingly lowered rates of profit, which are countered by higher exploitation. Wages have largely stagnated with respect to productivity while disparity rises.
I don’t follow.
You might want to read Wage Labor and Capital then.
I don’t want to read that.
Then what, specifically, are you having trouble with understanding?
Fun fact: The expression pie-in-the-sky originates in an American socialist song. It’s quite catchy.
A curious diversion but doesn’t really contribute to the issue at hand.
“But what if one day I get generational wealth? I better vote against anything that might reduce poverty and wealth inequality!” - republican voters
Socialism
A system of government where the country’s wealth is concentrated into a small, ruling class of billionaires, who use the media they own to keep the lower classes fighting with each other while they . . . the rich . . . run off with all the farking money.
Oh wait. that’s capitalism. I don’t know how I got those two systems confused.
This is a good writeup https://www.history.com/news/socialism-communism-differences
And socialism in pure form sounds like utopia.
Social democracy is currently the best of all the -isms in my mind.
And I believe any one party state will eventually become corrupted and some form of dictatorship.
Under communism, there is no such thing as private property. All property is communally owned, and each person receives a portion based on what they need. A strong central government—the state—controls all aspects of economic production, and provides citizens with their basic necessities, including food, housing, medical care and education.
I think that article is inaccurate. I’ve always seen communism described as a state-less society.
Ugh… Who wrote that… “Communism is when you have a communal toothbrush”…
“All property is communally owned”, said literally no socialist ever in history. It’s always funny to show the home ownership rate by country to people who claim “you don’t own anything in socialism”.
Marx specifically refers to the elements of government that uphold class society as the “state.” Communism, in the Marxist sense, has a government, central planning, and administration. The “state” whithers away via replacing elements of Capitalism with Socialism, removing aspects like Private Property Rights.
You may want to read Critique of the Gotha Programme, where Marx describes the transition from Capitalism to lower-stage Communism (Socialism in modern lingo), to upper-stage Communism.
It sounds great on paper but it seems to rely too much on hoping everyone from the ground up isn’t going to get greedy and skim or give themselves and friends a special deal. Humans aren’t selfless. Even Gene Roddenberry gave up hope on his idea of a future, socialist humanity, because he realized humans are too selfish to establish a system like that. We should still try though. Better than then we have now
I think it is generally because of our deeply capitalist society and upbringing that we are told to believe people are greedy and selfish, therefore we must be greedy and selfish ourselves in order to not get taken advantage of, or replaced.
People’s ideas come from their Material Conditions.
People gain power and become greedy and selfish. It’s not a capitalist thing, it’s been going on throughout all recorded history
impossible not to have greedy people with high drive, they have always existed and will always existed. And given that greed and high drive is a very explosive combination they will always wreck these systems.
Yeah that’s really what my point boils down to. We humans ruin everything
It sounds great on paper but it seems to rely too much on hoping everyone from the ground up isn’t going to get greedy and skim or give themselves and friends a special deal.
What on Earth are you referring to? How would one “skim?” What structures do you think exist in Communism that would allow this?
Huh? Do you think the people on top aren’t going to get more money, better food, better everything? That’s been proven over and over and in America? That would be abused immediately. Do you think things work for free in a socialist society? If there’s money, there will be skimming. And we’re talking about socialism. Not communism. I’ve lived under a communist regime, it’s not good. You young North American people shouldn’t dream about that shit.
Socialism is good. Communism has been bastardized and corrupted beyond repair.
Huh? Do you think the people on top aren’t going to get more money, better food, better everything? That’s been proven over and over and in America?
Historically, disparity drastically decreased in AES countries. Additionally, America is Capitalist, not sure what your point is.
Do you think things work for free in a socialist society?
No, workers still work, but collectively own and control the production and distribution.
f there’s money, there will be skimming. And we’re talking about socialism. Not communism. I’ve lived under a communist regime, it’s not good. You young North American people shouldn’t dream about that shit.
This post specifically is about Marxism, it’s Communist. Additionally, if you don’t mind, where did you live, and what happened?
Socialism is good. Communism has been bastardized and corrupted beyond repair.
Socialism is the path to Communism, it’s difficult to untie the two.
I think humans in general are more equipped to have empathy for a smaller tribe compared a whole Nation, let alone to billions of people world wide. It’s easier to share what you have with your neighbor rather than someone you have never met.
I agree.
I wouldn’t be using the online version of the history channel. Also communism has no state and therefore no single centralised government.
That’s Anarcho-Communism, not Marxism.
Communism in Marxism still has a government, just not what Marx called “the State.” The State, for Marx, is made up of the elements of government that uphold class society, ie Private Property Rights. Central Planning is a core concept of Marxism, and Marxists see administration, elections, councils, and so forth as necessary functions of society.
I recommend reading Critique of the Gotha Programme
Do you do anything but argue about marxism?
That’s a decent write-up, but has some issues like:
"[China, Cuba, North Korea, Laos and Vietnam] can be classified as communist because in all of them, the central government controls all aspects of the economic and political system. "
Uh… in every country the central government controls all aspects of the economic and political system. In a standard western democracy like say the UK, the government passes laws which regulate the economic and political system. They may choose to be hands-off when it comes to certain things, but ultimately they’re in control. At any point a law can be change, or a court decision can be changed so that what was once hands-off is now regulated.
What would it even look like for a country to not fully control all aspects of the economic and political system? IMO that only happens in a failed state when the government simply lacks the power to enforce laws. The difference between China and the USA is just a matter of degree. In China there are more regulations in general, and there are more state-owned enterprises.
Also, Social Democracy describes the US. It’s again a matter of degree. Yes in the Nordic countries there are more state-owned things, and more public benefits. But, in the US, even though ambulances are mostly private and for-profit, fire trucks are not. Privately owned toll roads exist, but they’re rare. The government pays for and runs schools. Potholes are filled by government employees. Mass transit is almost always city-owned. And, instead of the Pinkertons, cities use police forces where everyone’s a government employee. There are a lot of things that could be privatized in the US, but almost nobody actually wants everything to be a privately-owned for profit capitalist enterprise.
The only problem with implementing it is a lack of genuine compliance from the first few generations. If they can be compelled to contribute, to get it all stable and done and show why it’s good, then their children will reap the rewards of that success. That’s why some socialists see a driven party in it for the long haul to be necessary to get there.
Besides, your comment is literally against rule 3. I’m reporting you.
And socialism in pure form sounds like utopia
Sorry mate, that argument is already 200 years old. There’s a difference between utopian socialism (English Owenists or Russian Socialist Revolutionaries were good examples of this), and scientific socialism. Engels wrote an essay about it called, well, “Socialism: utopian and scientific” around 150+ years ago. Tl;dr: Marxists aren’t utopians, as proven by the success of the Russian Revolution or the Cuban Revolution in establishing long-lasting, stable political systems, with a total and complete absence of exploitation of the surplus value of workers by a capitalist class.
The 1% cry about it way less than the 40+% of absolute troglodytes in this country who think of themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires and love their tacky prophet Donnie the douche
I can haz Star Trek fyu cha?
So it’s all nice in theory, but I have questions…
the workers own their workplace
Based on previous discussions, I understand the commonly proposed model here would be a workers’ collective of some sort. People involved in the collective’s production share the proceeds - we made N number of tractors and took them to market and received X value units; we spent Y value units in the production process, so we can distribute (X - Y) value units among the members of the collective. The workers own the equipment and infrastructure used by the collective and share responsibility for production. If a worker moves from workplace A to workplace B for whatever reason, they cease to share in the proceeds and responsibility of workplace A’s collective and take on the responsibilities of workplace B’s collective and share in its proceeds.
(Aside: What if X is smaller than Y? Should members then add back the difference for the next production cycle, so production materials can be procured?)
Let’s look at the (X - Y) part a bit more closely. This defines the benefit that members of the collective derive from the enterprise, so they are collectively incentivised to make the difference as big as possible - to benefit themselves rather than a capital owner. Let’s assume that all collectives can procure production materials equally with no supply and demand market forces (unlikely). Let’s further assume that the market value for the goods produced is fixed (questionable, but OK). So anyone involved in producing tractors pay the same number of value units for raw materials and components and can only ever sell tractors for the same number of value units as everyone else. This means that an individual collective is heavily incentivised to reduce the raw materials needed per tractor (production efficiency), make better tractors than other collectives (market attractiveness), or increase the number of tractors they take to market in a given time period (increased production). Each collective, and ultimately its members, thus stand to benefit from having the most skilled tractor builders, innovative tractor designers, and an all-round hardworking membership. A more successful collective would draw more workers with such beneficial traits and become even more successful in the process. It would also be in the interest of the collective to either push out members that do not contribute according to their full ability, or reduce their share of the proceeds. The former would result in some workers not being accepted into any collective after a while and thus not contributing to any production, the latter in performance-based remuneration that creates societal inequality.
Congratulations! You just created market forces in the labour market that will have winners and losers.
a.k.a the means of production
Can someone explain to me what this means in today’s world, beyond factories making physical goods (such as tractors) using physical machines and manual human labour?
production is then planned by elected committees
There are some details missing here. Who elects these committees - workers, or society in general? What are the requirements for being electable for such a role? How are these committees held accountable for failures? Do they plan production at a society-wide level, each in a specific industry, or down to regions or specific production facilities? Do they serve only a planning role, or are they also responsible for execution?
What checks would be in place to prevent professional popularity contest participants (those we call politicians at the moment) from adopting a facade of ideological purity and getting elected on popularity rather than merit? How would they be insulated from outside influence by those affected by their decision making? Do we really need more tractors, or do they still have friends in Worker’s Collective 631 that makes tractors?
Congratulations! You just created a managerial class (at best) or just the usual corrupt cabal that run things to their own benefit.
increases productivity as workers are more happy and committed
That’s a big assumption. Anyone have any data from wide sampling across multiple industries to support this as a long-term sustained effect?
work to better ourselves and humanity
If you replace “humanity” with “our close community” this might be realistic. I don’t think the “and humanity” has ever happened at a macro level.
Based on previous discussions, I understand the commonly proposed model here would be a workers’ collective of some sort. People involved in the collective’s production share the proceeds - we made N number of tractors and took them to market and received X value units; we spent Y value units in the production process, so we can distribute (X - Y) value units among the members of the collective. The workers own the equipment and infrastructure used by the collective and share responsibility for production. If a worker moves from workplace A to workplace B for whatever reason, they cease to share in the proceeds and responsibility of workplace A’s collective and take on the responsibilities of workplace B’s collective and share in its proceeds.
This is Market Socialism, not Marxism. Marxism is what is depicted in the above graphic. Marxists aim to satisfy the needs of the whole using the production of the whole, not just competing cooperatives.
Can someone explain to me what this means in today’s world, beyond factories making physical goods (such as tractors) using physical machines and manual human labour?
All Capital, ie everything used in the commodity production process. If your aim is to get into the weeds about what is considered Capital, edge cases can be decided by committees.
There are some details missing here. Who elects these committees - workers, or society in general? What are the requirements for being electable for such a role? How are these committees held accountable for failures? Do they plan production at a society-wide level, each in a specific industry, or down to regions or specific production facilities? Do they serve only a planning role, or are they also responsible for execution?
The society in general is the workers. Requirements can be decided by the people. These committees are held accountable via election, and a recall election can be held at any time. There are multiple rungs of planning, from society wide to regional to facility levels, with committees for each. They can serve planning and execution, as workers participate.
What checks would be in place to prevent professional popularity contest participants (those we call politicians at the moment) from adopting a facade of ideological purity and getting elected on popularity rather than merit? How would they be insulated from outside influence by those affected by their decision making? Do we really need more tractors, or do they still have friends in Worker’s Collective 631 that makes tractors?
Recall elections. Why would producing more tractors in collective 631 benefit that collective if the goal is to satisfy the whole from the whole?
Congratulations! You just created a managerial class (at best) or just the usual corrupt cabal that run things to their own benefit.
Managers are not a class, they are an extension of the workers.
That’s a big assumption. Anyone have any data from wide sampling across multiple industries to support this as a long-term sustained effect?
Yes, across numerous studies worker participation in steering companies has resulted in higher satisfaction and stability.
If you replace “humanity” with “our close community” this might be realistic. I don’t think the “and humanity” has ever happened at a macro level.
You’re arguing against a chimera of random mish-mashed ideas from several different strains of Socialism that argue for different forms as though they are one and the same.
This is Market Socialism, not Marxism. Marxism is what is depicted in the above graphic.
The graphic with the big caption “SOCIALISM”. But fair point on me not addressing the specific implementation suggested with the presence of the Marx and Lenin characters.
If your aim is to get into the weeds about what is considered Capital, edge cases can be decided by committees.
Well yea, the devil is in the detail so it can’t just be waved away. The “commodity production process” still implies physical goods made from physical resources and that it’s the production facilities and resources that should be seized. (Side note: this assumes all the underlying resources are present within the area controlled by the proletariat.) Not seen any ideas proposed beyond that, but perhaps I’m not hanging around in the right places… Hopefully the committees will have people available that can figure it out after the fact?
Requirements can be decided by the people. These committees are held accountable via election, and a recall election can be held at any time. There are multiple rungs of planning, from society wide to regional to facility levels, with committees for each. They can serve planning and execution, as workers participate.
Yea, you’ve clearly never worked in a “design by committee” or “management by consensus” situation. Nothing ever gets done, and when some decision is finally made on anything it tends to be the shittiest common denominator option that thinly and evenly spreads the collective responsibility. Not the best option, but the one that everyone can kind of agree on and thus be collectively accountable for. The exception might be when a very small number of people that are agreed on an end goal and share the same vision for reaching it work together. But I assure you, that does not scale - even if people are in full agreement on the end goal.
Why would producing more tractors in collective 631 benefit that collective if the goal is to satisfy the whole from the whole?
Because human beings.
Managers are not a class, they are an extension of the workers.
Fair point. I guess I was a bit caught in the popular narrative where managers are the enemy of the workers.
Yes, across numerous studies worker participation in steering companies has resulted in higher satisfaction and stability.
Of course, and I’m a fan. I’m not disputing that places where extensive consultation happens with the people responsible for delivering are nice places to work at. But that consultation process is usually very closely managed and the ideas to take forward are cherry picked to give enough “they listen to me” feel good vibes, while also not interfering too much with the business’ priorities. Really taking the inputs of large employee groups seriously on the things that matter cannot happen outside of an adversarial setting, because the interests of the worker and those who benefit most from their labour are fundamentally in conflict. The point I’m rambling towards is that I doubt there are studies that looked at situations where employee inputs in decision making (beyond window dressing) was sustained over very long periods of time at a scale relevant to what you envision. (There are exceptions, but only in small groups of highly-aligned people in a horizontal structure that are deeply vested in the success of the venture.)
You’re arguing against a chimera of random mish-mashed ideas from several different strains of Socialism that argue for different forms as though they are one and the same.
I guess you’re right on that, yes. The thing is that I’ve been thinking about details like these (and many more) for at least 25 years (beyond “edgy teenager” or “social media fad” or “my parents are fascists” stages), since I would prefer that the fruits of my labour (to at least some degree) benefit other people rather than feed a system that heavily incentivises the shittiest parts of human beings and is also inherently cruel. Over the years I’ve also read pretty widely on this topic - from the purist theoretical ideologies to the practical compromises to the counterpoints to the criticisms. (Hell, I even lived in what was basically a workers’ collective for almost a year, but it only worked because it was a small community of ~100 people with close social and familial ties.) So in my mind the lines between specific flavours of socialism are pretty blurry these days, while the common fundamental challenges keep standing out.
What truly frustrates me is the constant arguments about which is the best flavour, while ignoring how to actually realistically practically progress towards something better. Spending the day fighting about which flavour of ice cream to buy instead of figuring out how to get to the ice cream shop on the other side of the city in the first place.
That, and I am yet to see something proposed that doesn’t completely ignore predictable human reactions or result in some degree of authoritarianism. (Nordic-flavour Market Socialism is perhaps the closest to something that might work, but it also heavily relies on a fairly homogenous society with a culture that sees value in the interests of that society over total individualism.)
You’re not liberating literal serfs that never knew personal agency from a literal monarch. You’re trying to get people that are exploited by a system while also benefitting from it to willingly abandon that system for something that might be better (if it worked) or might not be - the plans for the “something” are fuzzy at best so who knows. The details matter, and interrogating the details is not reactionary behaviour.
Congratulations! You just created market forces in the labour market that will have winners and losers.
Yes. Market Socialism (which would have supply and demand and competing worker-owned firms) doesn’t solve everything. I advocate for it because I think it’s a good, achievable medium-term goal that would be a vast improvement over what we have now. Something we could see in my lifetime. Once we get things there, workers are in a better position to advocate for further changes, like dumping money altogether.
However, there’s plenty of people who think we should jump right past that and into the Anarco-Communist end goal.
One of the ideals of being a cooperative is “cooperation among cooperatives” as dictated by the Rochdale Principles. So by definition worker co-ops shouldn’t be competing with each other. Instead consolidation of corporations to force a sort of cooperation to increase profit we’ll ideally have worker cooperatives working with producer co-ops for example.
Not entirely sure the implications of supply and demand market forces but I imagine its a step up from our current system. We’ll have democratically controlled work places where workers dictact the direction of supply and not necessarily for the sole purpose of increasing profits. In any case what I think we need is a new systematic way of measuring the growth of an economy in conjunction with worker co-ops.
