I wonder if this is an US/the rest thing or maybe a meat eater / vegetarian thing. For exact scientific evaluation, please tell in which groups you fit in when commenting.
When the topic food is brought up here or there is always this guy saying “omg you can’t leave your food for 30 minutes on the counter because bacteria you know” (exaggerated) and I don’t get where that sentiment comes from. Many people agree and say you will get food poisoning from that.
First of all, let me tell you I am not an idiot (at least I hope so) and I know how microbiology works - bacteria is everywhere. I don’t doubt your food on the counter will get populated by bacteria, probably more than it would be in the fridge. The question is, is this bad for you?
Now, where I live (central Europe) people are not so fast with that and I wonder why this is. We have a temperate climate which could play a role, so a large portion of the year the temperature is pretty moderate, compared to let’s say south US. But apart from that I don’t really know.
I am a vegetarian, mostly vegan. I am pretty sure it’s not a good idea to leave animal parts out of the fridge, as they are already populated with bad bacteria when you buy them. But for vegetables? Pasta, soup, lasagna? To be honest, I have no shame to leave that stuff on the counter the whole day and even take a spoon from time to time without reheating. Over night I put it of course in the fridge, and in summer when we have 35°C it’s also a different thing. But in general I don’t really care. I know I cannot extrapolate on humanity, only because ai never felt bad after doing this. But honestly, am I an idiot? Or are you just a bit sensitive? Do you assume everybody eats meats?
Really interested in your ideas. Don’t forget to tell the region you are coming from and your diet preferences.
Thank you so much my respected lemmings and pie people
So as a person who’s been in that back area of a restaurant, we all know the danger zone is anything above 40F to 140F and the closer you are to that median temperature that median temperature the faster that bacteria multiplies, meat, vegetables, doesn’t matter, as long as the temperature’s right and there’s enough moisture there, they’ll breed like bacteria and there are bacteria that leaves toxins behind that will also make you sick.
So given that, I’ve always put stuff into the fridge as soon as were done eating generally following the two hour rule and it’s been sitting out for more than four hours without refrigeration, I’ll usually toss it.
Ive left excess pasta on the stove overnight, I’ve left pizza open on the counter and eaten it the day after (though if there’s only a couple slices they stay in the microwave on a cutout of the box ready to be nuked in the morning/next days lunch)
Still alive, still haven’t given myself food poisoning
I keep my lunch in my work bag all day, not in the fridge, unless it’s salad where it should be crisp.
I did the European thing where I kept eggs on the counter. It’s best that way. Real unwashed farm eggs, not shit from the grocery store.
We lean towards vegetarian, minimum meat consumption for both health and environmental reasons.
As far as leaving food out…only foods that don’t require refrigeration. Bread, snacks, etc. Anything cooked that is still hot will be allowed to cool before going into the fridge, no need to make the fridge work harder, but it doesn’t stay out long enough to be a food safety problem.
Uncooked foods that are dangers to bacteria growth like meats and the like don’t sit out ever or are carefully thawed. Eggs? They’re fine out of the fridge, just crack them individually into a small bowl to make sure they’re good before use. I think I’ve only ever had one bad egg left out and it was pretty obvious, they just last a lot longer if refrigerated. Greens and other veg just wilt and dehydrate if not used quickly unless refrigerated, but leaving them out isn’t an issue. They get washed before use.
Anyway…I do most all the cooking and take food safety seriously. I’ve had one serious bout of food poisoning from a restaurant and that made death seem like a viable option vs the misery of constantly evacuating everything in your body for a few days, and the memory stuck with me. You can cook great food that’s been prepared to the correct and safe temperature, and I have little issue with foods that have been cooked like this, left out to cool and refrigerated, then reheated to a proper temperature.
Also… thinking rice or pastas are fine left out because no animal proteins, think again.
Ants are everywhere in south east asia so I’d never or build a little tower with a water bowl underneath it.
It would bother me at a restaurant or store, since that is proper, legal food safety shit. If it needs to be kept cold, it can’t be out of cold for more than 30 minutes.
However, at home? I don’t care too much. Unless it’s been out all day, I’ll just nuke it and that should kill anything.
Assuming you mean microwaving… Microwaves sadly aren’t magical, their sterilizing capabilities are mostly just the heat. So make sure to evenly heat it through, the same way you’d do it on the stove.
Another factor that hasn’t been mentioned: I’m young and healthy, I don’t want to have salmonella, but I’m pretty sure I’d probably be okay. If I am sick or cooking for people who have weak immune systems for whatever reasons, I do much stricter than for my lazy bachelor self.
Otherwise, I live by “if it smells and looks good, it’s probably good”. Obvious conditions apply of course, in hot, humid weather, I’m trying to leave nothing out, in cold weather, I’ll happily eat cold pizza from the day before.
I’m vegan. Generally speaking, whatever we cook for dinner gets left out overnight. I’ll chuck the pan in the oven so the cats don’t lick it, but unless it’s hot/summer then food is usually fine at room temp for 24hrs. Been doing this for 20+ years.
I am the same. Vegetarian.
Unless the food contains uncooked dairy (milk, cream etc) or eggs (home made mayo) it can usually stay in a covered dish over night without refrigeration. It was the same at my parents house, except for fish and meat dishes.
Never had a food borne illness from my own cooking, my parents’ or the left overs.
Canadian living in Australia. Omnivore.
Kicker: Food technologist and health inspector. AMA.
Tl;dr: Doesn’t matter if it’s meat or veg. It goes in the fridge. Follow 2h/4h rule.
For work, I’m fairly strict in businesses because the food can go anywhere once it’s in the hands on the customer, even in restaurants or at home. You can look at your dine in customers and they all look healthy, but what if they’re not, or where do the leftovers go? Do they take it home after date night to share some with little Bobby or Grandma Jane? In business, you do what you can to keep the food as “clean” as you can.
At home and in food businesses, handwashing is ALWAYS a problem. Food handlers are always touching their faces, phones, hip towel they’ve had on all day, touching a towel they use used to wipe their hands after only rinsing hands in water in the sink, and then touching lettuce for a salad. So even at home, you can cook things to keep bacteria, but is the scoop, container, and your hands clean? Dust, pollen, flies, hairs, etc also carry microbes, and if any of them fall in to food after its been cooked, the bacteria can grow.
It also depends on the type of bacteria, too. Salmonella can infect at an extremely low dose, and Staphylococcus infects at very high doses.
I follow the 2h/4h rule for anything potentially hazardous. Of course, at home, I’m a bit more flexible, usually +/- 1h. If I make myself sick, alright, but there’s no way I’m going to make anyone else sick, so if I’m making food for others, I keep to the strict rules. I’m also generally more risk adverse because the thought of anything involuntary coming out either end makes me sick just thinking about it.
I think the amount of time a food stays out is cultural, and if you grew up with it, your gut will have gotten used to the levels of bacteria. Us westerners generally get sick drinking tap water in certain countries when the locals are fine. I used to live with a Japanese lady for a year, and she knew what I did for a living. She always left rice out all night and ate it the next day. One day, she came to me with it and said “does this smell weird?” and it was a definite yes from me. I’d never leave cooked rice out that long and feel comfortable eating it.
So yeah, Bacillus cereus or whatever bacteria present may not occur all the time, but it does happen. Imagine making large batches and serving to large numbers of unrelated people.
Another thing: Cool foods within 2h to a reasonable temperature (I say 40C is fine) before putting it in the the fridge uncovered. If you put hot food in the fridge, you run the risk of warming up the foods already in the fridge.
Wash your hands.
And use a thermometer. Make sure it’s clean before you use it.
Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk.
I have a thermometer with a metal probe. What’s your view on how to correctly clean it?
At home, I just use soap, water and a scrubber. As an additional step, I also either wipe it down with an alcohol wipe if I have any laying around, or let it sit in freshly boiled water. I’m not crazy about doing this for everything except with undercooked or raw poultry.
At work, everyone is required by law to implement a sanitising step to ensure any residual harmful microbes are destroyed… but I’d never deter anyone at home from doing this ;) I suggest properly diluted bleach (100ppm, or as per label instructions, freshly made), or quaternary ammonium compound (“quat”, also diluted to either 200ppm or as per label). Otherwise, dishwasher.
I’ve always wondered why eggs can be unrefrigerated in some countries and be safe to eat for weeks…
This has to do with how the eggs are sanitized before they’re sold. In places where you need to keep them refrigerated, they’ve been washed in such a way that a protective layer has been removed. In countries that keep their eggs on the counter, this has not been done.
Yeah, that’s huge. Outbreaks are becoming more and more common. In Canada and USA, it’s a requirement to keep eggs in the fridge, and we just assume chickens = Salmonella, which is also why there is such stress on washing your hands thoroughly after handling raw chicken, cut chicken on a designated poultry-only cutting board, etc.
I think some countries will do a sanitising wash, some just wash with water.
In Australia, Salmonella infections have been increasing, so it’s strongly recommended to keep eggs refrigerated. It’s not written in to law, but we’re a little behind here on a few things. Also consider the differences in handling of eggs at a supermarket, at a farmer’s market, or someone selling excess eggs outside their home.
Another thing that needs to be considered: Egg shells are porous. In a supermarket, temperatures don’t fluctuate as much as it would at home or in a restaurant, so they’re not going to sweat (moisture = nice spot for bacteria to grow). In restaurants and at home, if they’re not in the fridge, eggs will be subject to sweating (think hot kitchen during the day, cool kitchen at night; flies, cockroaches, rodents, unclean human hands, etc.) I’ve seen eggs being sold out of eskies on the side of the road, and I avoid those. The Aussie sun is HOT.
Omnivore.
Bread cools overnight on the counter after cooking then wrapped and stays on the counter.
Butter in a closed container, for however long until it’s all used.
Pizza overnight if it doesn’t have meat
Cut onion, if I cut some for breakfast I will just turn it cut side down on the cutting board if I’m gonna use the rest soon, like at supper same day.
If beans are left out too long I do the "hard boil for 5 minutes.
I do make fermented beverages and pickles, those ferment at room temp for days to weeks.
I leave food on the counter all the time, because If I’m still hungry in a little while, I don’t want my food cold. I have never in my life gotten food poisoning from it.
I have a degree in microbiology and I am not sure. I could look it up but im comfotable with my gut. Raw food that needs to be refrigerated we don’t leave out for any longer than necessary and use cooler bags and such. Cooked food we won’t put in the fridge till its almost room temp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort?wprov=sfla1
I’m unable to find micromort numbers for food-poisoning or food preservation techniques, but my wild guess is that leaving an average vegetarian leftover overnight at an average kitchen temperature on the averagely cleaned kitchen counter, unrefrigerated and even not covered at all, then eating it the next day (maybe reheated) is gonna be negligible amounts of risk compared to many many many other risks people take everyday without blinking their eye about it (such as walking, driving, climbing stairs, swimming, drinking alcohol, using cleaning products, inhaling/eating environmental pollution, not washing hands after toilet, …)
US. Omnivore.
The food safety recommendations and regulations for commercial Kitchens are there for a reason. That being said, a home setting is very different than a commercial setting.
-
The potential for impact is much greater in a commercial environment due to the volume of food and customers served.
-
Believe it or not, a home setting is more controlled than a commercial setting: There are (generally) fewer food handlers, service personnel and “customers” touching or breathing on the food/dishes/equipment. And whether any of those individuals pose a disease vector risk is fairly well understood within the household, which can be mitigated on a more granular level. Because you are only serving one table instead of many at different stages of readiness, there is smaller variety of foods in preparation at once, fewer steps in the prep process happening simultaneously, and dirty dishes are only handled after the food has been prepared and eaten, reducing the risk of cross contamination. There are so many vectors for contamination in a commercial setting that the controls are in place to stop little issues from turning in big problems.
All this is to say that I am generally okay leaving finished foods out on my counter for extended periods of time if it has been freshly and properly prepared.
However, your examples baffle me. Leaving pasta out all day just seams like an unpleasant eating experience, indifferent of the health implications. Soup and lasagna? I can’t imagine wanting either of those early enough in the morning to prepare them so that I could leave them out “all day”. If I’m grabbing leftovers from the fridge, I wouldn’t leave it out. It’s already got a container and a space on the shelf; just put the rest back where it came from after you taken your serving.
Vegetables of course live their entire pre-picked lives without refrigeration and are generally fine on the counter when fresh. I would refrigerate prepared fresh vegetables if I knew I wasn’t going to finish them or they were particularly moist, like cut tomatoes or a dressed salad, or known to turn quickly like avacado.
-
From the CDC website:
“Bacteria can multiply rapidly if left at room temperature or in the “Danger Zone” between 40°F and 140°F. Never leave perishable food out for more than 2 hours (or 1 hour if exposed to temperatures above 90°F).”
Well the US guidelines don’t add very much to the discussion tbh, especially meat vs. veggies. It shows however why US Americans are so sensitive about this topic.