I understand the historical significance since the nationalists retreated to Taiwan at the end of the Chinese Civil War.
Back then, and for perhaps the middle part of the 20th century, there was a threat of a government in exile claiming mainland China. Historically, then, there was your impetus for invasion.
However, China has since grown significantly, and Taiwan no longer claims to be the government of mainland China, so that reason goes away.
Another reason people give: control the supply of chips. Yet, wouldn’t the Fabs, given their sensitive nature, be likely to be significantly destroyed in the process of an invasion?
Even still, China now has its own academia and engineering, and is larger than Taiwan. Hence, even without the corporate espionage mainland China is known for, wouldn’t investing in their burgeoning semiconductor industry make more sense, rather than spending that money on war?
People mention that taking Taiwan would be a breakout from the “containment” imposed by the ring of U.S. allies in the region.
Yet while taking Taiwan would mean access to deep-water ports, it’s not as though Taiwan would ever pose a threat to Chinese power projection—their stance is wholly defensive. If China decided to pull an “America” and send a carrier to the Middle East or something, no one would stop them and risk a war.
So what is it then? Is it just for national pride and glory? Is it to create a legacy for their leadership? The gamble just doesn’t really seem worth it.
Anyway, appreciate your opinions thanks!
China considers taiwan a part of its country. If china is able to capture and integrate taiwan into it then it will show that china has become a superpower. If china can capture taiwan then it will show USA and west that china is not a paper tiger.
Land and the sea surrounding Taiwan, which comes with resource that they can exploit, and controling people that they claim is theirs. It’s the same reason why europe sail across the sea to colonize others land, and why US doesn’t let Puerto Rico become independent. China never acknowledged that Taiwan is an independent country, they always believe that Taiwan is their territory. It’s imperialism.
Doesn’t both Taiwan and China both officially recognize all of China and Taiwan as their own territory?
Yes and according to the CCP if Taiwan ever changes that it will trigger military action.
Huh I guess I might have been weong— Taiwan technically does claim the mainland? But also not its governance?
“The 1991 constitutional amendments and the 1992 Cross-Strait Relations Act marked a pivotal shift, as the ROC ceased actively claiming governance over the mainland, stopped treating the PRC as a rebellious group, and started treating it in practise, as an equal political entity effectively governing mainland China from ROC’s perspective, though the ROC constitution still technically includes the mainland as ROC territory.”
stopped treating the PRC as a rebellious group
That was to lift martial law.
Yeah it’s one of those technically true things that gets trotted out a lot to paint a “both sides” type picture. Not sure if that was the other commenters intent or not, but when stated without context it often seems like that’s the intent.
I think the key word is “practical”. Both the mainland and Taiwanese governments are not stupid, they know they have to acknowledge the status quo for day to day business like customs and immigration.
Maybe, but when is the last time you heard taiwan claiming china is their territory rather than talking about taiwan independent (台独)?
Puerto Rico doesn’t want to be independent. They regularly have polls on this. About half want to be a state. About half want to keep the status quo. A small fraction favor independence. And it is obvious why - despite all the economic restrictions and lack of representation, the average Puerto Rican is far better off economically with a US passport. Just look at comparable Caribbean island nations - an independent Puerto Rico would have little going for it other than as a stopover for shipping boats and cruise ships. As part of the US, they draw an outsized portion of the Caribbean tourism market, can easily trade with US companies without the impediments of international borders, and can dream that their kids can go to the mainland and study in some of the best universities in the world.
That’s true, my bad. I meant to draw comparison on why US still have Puerto Rico as a territory but without any political representation
Little yellow penis seems bigger somehow.
Money, power, influence, prestige
Imo I think the biggest thing is it would be completing the revolution in the sense that the KMT fled to Taiwan and is a holdout, that would be a huge win for national pride and legitimacy for the government. The second biggest thing would be nothaving another country with an army so close to them that is “hostile” to their interests. And then after that there would be a lot of other benefits like absorbing their industry, economic zones, military bases, etc. They would much rather have the modern KMT party win an election and vote to become a part of China, than invade, which while very unlikely is not impossible by any means in the span of decades.
One, it completes one of their long standing policy of “one China”. They still view Taiwan as a rogue rebellion state to bring back into the fold, not an independent country to conquer.
Two, it would cripple a lot of the west’s high end silicon industry. TSMC is the only one that can make the worlds most advanced nodes, as well as Taiwan holds chip packaging infrastructure that any other nodes require on to be useful.
To that end it is a geopolitical chip that China can use to pressure the west, but likely will never act upon until a real hot war breaks out.
It would cripple it now but TSMC has started building Fabs in North America— but it would certainly cripple its output in the short term— then again, the U.S governments current incompetence not withstanding, you would think that if that ever happened the U.S would be able to emergency build Fabs within a few (2-4?) years if necessary.
From what I know, it’s not that simple. Those are very complex and delicate processes, so the 2 to 4 years timeline sounds quite optimistic.
Also, it’s entirely possible TSMC doesn’t want to transfer the entirety of its knowledge to the US, as it basically guarantees the US would intervene in the case of an invasion to protect the supply of advanced chips.
The fabs themselves aren’t the only limiting factor on modern lithography, skill is the bigger one; this stuff is probably more complicated than rocket science. We US engineers dont have the skills to run a competitive fab in the US, that takes many years of losing money to be developed. Intel has bigger better EUV machines than TSMC but they just cant compete and intel keeps laying off their engineers constantly which is a very bad signal.
Also, last time I was reading on the topic TSMC doesn’t plan to produce advanced chips on their US fabs to gatekeep their knowledge.
They still view Taiwan as a rogue rebellion state to bring back into the fold, not an independent country to conquer.
I think this should never be mentioned without also pointing out that the island of Taiwan has never been a part of China.
In what way…? Taiwan has been a part of all Chinese states for centuries.
So? Before Qing dynasty taiwan was not part of china and became part through conquests. Taiwan has the right to be a separate entity what they dfon’t have right to is to becone the usa puppet and threten china security and the interests that they have right to
Taiwan has been a part of China for far longer than the US has existed. Or that Hawaii has been part of the US. And there’s pretty good support for independence in Hawaii…
It doesn’t matter. Polities reunify and separate all the time in history. The idea that a polity once becoming part of another can’t separate again is so dumb
Interesting. So the Donbas has a right to leave Ukraine?
Yes but with the legal way with a referendom
So if a rebel army lost a civil war in the US, fled to Hawaii, set up a military dictatorship that exploits and genocides native Hawaiians, we should all just accept that as cool and fine? As long as 50 years have passed and the only people left are the children of the rebels and military dictators who support their “state”?
Edit: also while being supported by China and Russia and all the while having war games where they invade the US from Hawaii 😂
What are you refering too?
Before any region was part of any country it was not part of that country, by definition
Yes. I think that reinforce my argument not yours
You can think that, but you’d be wrong.
Literally since before the US was even a thing… so yes, all, for centuries.
Lazy adhominem
The PLA has never stepped foot on the island of Taiwan, correct.
But Qing Dynasty has ruled Taiwan, and now the Republic of China is currently on Taiwan
But the PRC is not a direct continuation of the Qing.
The USA can’t lay claim to Great Britain just because they used to part of the same country before the revolution.
Taiwan belonged to Qing Dynasty, followed by Japanese Imperial Rule, then they handed it to Republic of China in 1945 when Japan surrendered to the Allies. Republic of China is the Direct Successor to Qing Dynasty (unless you count the Japanese occupation). Then immediately after WW2 ended, the KMT (who runs the Republic of China) and the CCP had a civil war. The KMT-led ROC was losing so they retreated to Taiwan, where they are currenly located. We call it “Taiwan”, but its technically (according to the constitution of the Government in Taiwan) still called the “Republic of China”, and Taiwan is known as the “Free Area of the Republic of China”, with mainland China technically a communist rebellion. There was never any peace treaties or armistance agreement. The civil war never legally ended or even paused, only de facto paused.
Then after the ROC retreated to Taiwan, the CCP proclaimed the People’s Republic of China. ROC currently exists as a rump state.
So PRC could claim to be the successor to the ROC after an internal struggle.
The difference between the US-Britain sitation is that: (1) The US declared indepence right from the start, and (2) The US and Britain already recognized each other like over 200 years ago. PRC and ROC still have yet to recognize each other’s legitimanct, and as far as I know, ROC still haven’t published a declaration of independence, so they are implicitly still agreeing to the fact that they are both engaged in a civil for succession as the legitimate government of “China”, not for secesion as an independent state.
Basically there are 3 factions. The PRC who views itself as the sole legitimate government of all of China, the ROC who also views itself as the sole legitimate government of China. And the Taiwanese Independence movement supporters, who doesn’t want anything to do with either ROC or PRC.
So if Republic of China want to become Republic of Taiwan, they probably should publish the declaration of independence, otherwise, its still a civil war, an internal struggle for succession to the banner of “China”.
Don’t misunderstand, I am not pro-CCP, I’m on the side of Democracy whether its Republic of Taiwan or a unified Democratic China under Republic of China, but I hope there will be a democratic reunification instead of the situtation now with the CCP in control of over a billion lives.
“if Republic of China want to become Republic of Taiwan, they probably should publish the declaration of independence”
They don’t have that choice. While independence is quite popular in Taiwan, the PRC has made it very clear that they see any movement toward Taiwanese independence as cause for war. Going so far as to fire literal warning shots over the island in 2022 and 1996.
What does China achieve
The typical bully’s satisfaction.
The same Russia gained from invading Ukraine, I guess: securing themselves from future, final NATO aggression by proxy.
Yeah, Taiwan is going to be in NATO. 🙄
I don’t think you understand what I meant or you’re not arguing in good will. Or you and everyone frantically downvoting are just having a gut reaction because of your propagandised brains. Check what MacArthur said about Taiwan: the overall idea hasn’t changed, just the resources allocated to it and its organization…
You’re seriously using the guy who was removed for refusing to follow orders (orders to stand down and NOT escalate) half a century ago, to argue NATO’s current position on the defense of Taiwan?
There is no NATO aggression. You’re spreading Kremlin propaganda
I mean, the Americans + European vassals literally couped, bombed and invaded several countries in the past few decades and only those with the military capacity to stand against them haven’t lost their sovereignty but okay. Nvm the shitton of American bases surprisingly placed in very geopolitically relevant spots, lol, they’re just for decoration I’m sure. Or how up until not that long ago there was a ‘United States Taiwan Defense Command’ 🤷🙄.
C’mon man, unless you’re aware and just getting paid for this (I doubt it), your ignorance is dangerous. And you better shake off that imperialist propaganda cause trust me it’s not gonna help when the empire runs out of easy foreign targets and comes home knocking…
Hi, Eastern European here. We begged to join NATO. We kicked and screamed, wheeled and dealed, anything we could to get that coveted NATO membership.
You know why? Because we’ve been dealing with expansionist Russian imperialism for our entire histories. Different coats of paint in different time periods, but it’s all the same shit. The US is an empire, but at least here it’s preferable to Russia’s imperial ambitions.
Seems like you’re just talking about the USA and not NATO.
Imperialism is good if the other team does it? Come on.
Besides, nobody was going to attack Russia. 1. they have nukes, 2. everyone who tried in the past has lost due to geographic and military realities, 3. they were supplying (and still are!) lots of fossil fuels to Europe, and 4. they have nukes.
All other recent conflicts near european Russia like Georgia, Moldova (both Russian imperialist aggressions) and Yugoslavia (it’s complicated) were limited, minor skirmishes on more or less neutral territory. Hardly a threat to Russia as a nation or even its role in Europe.
Street cred.
Taiwan is a fantastic launching point for an invasion of China and Taiwan has decent relations with the US and other capitalist states who have an interest in opposing China. Yk how people say Israel is an unsinkable aircraft carrier in the middle east? Taiwan could be like that for China if the western powers decided to use it as such. There is already a US military base there. Imagine how the US would react if Cuba had a Chinese military base? This is the main material reason.
Chip manufacturing could also play a role but it is a minor one compared to this.
it’s like Spain wanting Catalonia to be under control. Why would Spain want to lose control of a part of their own country?
Too bad Taiwan is not part of China.
Taiwan should be part of China. Taiwan has been ruled by China since the Qing Dynasty.
A Democratic China, that is, not this CCP infested bullshit.
Had the ROC won the Civil War, I doubt anyone would complain about China having HK, Macau, and Taiwan.
For most westerners, the support for Taiwan Independence is mostly a democracy vs autocracy issue, not a independence vs re-unification issue.
West taiwan should become a part of taiwan. West taiwan is rule by a rough back stabing rebellion. :3
I mean that’s exactly what I’m saying.
ROC should retake mainland and unify China into a Democratic Nation.
Sorry tankie. If a bunch of people leave a country they shouldn’t be considered property. Re-unification is Chinese propaganda. Most of Taiwan doesn’t want that.
While i agree with you. Taiwan is none of the usa business and usa involvment is a security risk to china
It’s up to Taiwan to decide who they want to be allies with.
Not by threatening china security . Security concerns is the right of every single country. Isn’t hypocrital that one side has the right to support allies unconditionally but the other side not?
Likewise the PRC is a security risk to Taiwan. It’s understandable why the RoC would like to be close to the US.
I wish that a peaceful not US involved solution could be found.
Everytime the usa intervene they cause chaos
It is though. Both countries claim the other part to be part of the other. Denying that is just western histeria.
Taiwan does not claim that over China.
And just because somebody claims something it doesn’t make it true.
Go read Taiwan’s constitution, it’s right there. The only reason why Taiwan doesn’t talk about it publicly is because in international relations being the oppressed underdog gets you more diplomatic points.
In real terms, most countries don’t recognise Taiwan’s independence either, and that includes the EU and the US.
The US only pays lip service to Taiwan’s independence because it’s a free talking point in their broader “China Bad” propagan machine.
Lots of good points, but one aspect that people haven’t mentioned yet is that Taiwan is part of the “first island chain”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_chain_strategy
If the PRC conquers Taiwan, then it makes it much harder for the west to blockade the PRC in future conflicts. (Though technically it is much more important to control the strait of Malacca than Taiwan.
The island chain strategy is the exact reason why China desires Taiwan. If anything, it’s a desire not to be blockaded.
It’s also the reason why China has been trying to dominate the South China Sea because that’s its only outlet to open seas.
Like I said, the messaging around the PRC’s imperialistic ambitions in Taiwan goes far beyond the concern around blockades. It’s just interesting from a military/strategic perspective.
Worth noting that even Russia has not been blockaded after it’s imperialistic annexation of Ukraine.
You are approaching this from the perspective of a rational peaceful person from the west, where usually the economy is number one in everything.
Xi has achieved unrivaled rule over the party. He has successfully established a police state that ensures that any domestic dissent is immediately crushed with brutal efficiency. He has subjugated the provinces that dared to think about self rule and cultural differences, and is in the process of ethnic cleansing without any significant opposition or consequences. He has gained colonial influence all over Africa through economic means. He has taken over Hong Kong. He has significantly modernized and expanded the military, including nuclear weapons. He had made China into a global economic superpower, which other countries, including rivals, depend on for a significant amount of manufactured goods and resources.
So what is left for him? Surely he is not a man who can be content with what he has.
The obvious next step is to make China into a military superpower. For that you need to exert power abroad. What better place to begin with than that small island just off your coast that has been a challenge to Chinese supremacy for decades?
Of course, Taiwan is kind of protected by the US, the dominant superpower of the time. But they are struggling, looking weak. If China manages to take Taiwan, they will not only have removed that thorn in their side, they will also have punched the biggest, meanest kid on the block on the nose and gotten away with it.
You are approaching this from the perspective of a rational peaceful person from the west,
Least chauvinistic .worlder.
Of course, Taiwan is kind of protected by the US, the dominant superpower of the time. But they are struggling, looking weak.
Keep in mind that China is struggling as well. Their debt problems are several times worse than the US, so they could suffer a major recession within the next few years if a significant disruption like war happens.
Same thing they gained from invading Hong Kong, they think it belongs to them.
Or as one of my old friends told me while playing Final Fantasy 12; the only legitimate reason to wage war against another country - land.
Hong Kong is already part of the Chinese mainland and was already kinda part of China, but Taiwan is a geographically strategic location that puts both Koreas, the Philippines, & Japan in a tougher position. Even without war it would make trade and travel in the Pacific much harder.
They didn’t invade Hong Kong, it was given back to China from the British after the 99 year lease expired. The violence in Hong Kong was to destroy the concept of democracy among the citizens there.
lemmitors: They hate Taiwan for their freedom!
