Hello. So last week I went to a school reunion for the 20th anniversary of my hometown school. I’m not the kind of person who enjoy this kind of social events, but for this time I made an exception. My old friend from that time asked me to go and I thought I would be funny (spoiler alert: it wasn’t funny). After the event and speeches, all my classmates and I went to a restaurant. I sat in front of a girl that I had a bit of a crush on when I was a kid. During the dinner I was mostly in silence, they were talking about gossips, old memories, relationships, comparisons… At some point she talked about a boyfriend she had. She said that she cheated on him like 10 or 20 times, she didn’t know the exact number. The thing is… She was laughing about it, and so the others. “I told him I cheated on him, I don’t know how many times…” She said, like nothing happened. My ex girlfriend told me that she also cheated on his fiancée some time before the wedding. She always said that infidelities are always there, like it is normal… But is it? I’ve been thinking about it for some time now, because I know some other cases. But I don’t understand… There is no sense of morality ot loyalty or empathy?
If you are really interested in learning more about infidelity I would suggest you read / listen to Dan Savages’s columns / podcast. Unsurprisingly there are a lot of different calls and discussions about fidelity and monogamy. I would also suggest you read Ester Perel groundbreaking novel The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity
To answer your question directly infidelities are fairly common because monogamy is difficult and society typically puts a lot of stress and pressure on monogamy that makes it even more difficult. The foremost is the idea that monogamy as a default setting and that one person can be everything for one person sexually, emotionally etc… So we have a situation where two people are assuming that their partner will be the only person they can be attracted to, the one person that can fulfill all their emotional needs and will have to be a perfect roommate / life mate. This coupled with the idea that you have to be perfect at monogamy or you are a complete failure at it. So you have a hard situation and hard expectations so people slip and some people who slip on something small (a micro-cheating which is a ridiculous concept) they go all the way. All these expectations are common in “Straight-land” while those in “queer-land” have a different set of expectation that work better for everyone.
We should all make monogamy an regular opt-in conversation for relationships (I would suggest ~6 months in when you go exclusive and then at most every 5 years). Moreover, we should understand our monogamist partner finds other people attractive and chooses to not pursue anything not that they don’t find anyone else attractive. Finally, we should understand a our partner needs friends, hobbies and confidant who are not us to rely on. Until that happens “cheating” will likely remain something that happens fairly regularity
That’s interesting. I wonder how much religion plays into it. My marriage is monogamous but we are both open to each other about attractions outside the marriage. It is OK to be turned on by someone else or some other situation, and we can use that together. It also helps that we both don’t generally like other people; we have a close knit group of friends but most folks we meet outside that are obnoxious and gross.
Like everything there’s some puritan morals involved. Most of which are around how sex and sexual desire are gross and not important. Couple that with the idea that suffering makes you a good person they all connect.
Also I think media plays a big role as well. Some toxic relationships are glorified in rom-coms and other media. Add in the normalization of weaponized jealousy in reality TV. Throw in the new micro cheating that the Internet and relationships experts who make mountains out of molehills. It’s a complex mix
Married 20 years, never thought abut cheating, got divorced , and remarried 15 years now, and never think about cheating. If you commit to somebody, they should be your one and only, IMO.
I think it would be less common if people accepted that monogamy is not the norm. Just be honest with yourself and your partner(s). If you want a monogamous relationship - commit to it. If not - don’t start one. I found out that I am polyamorous the hard way by thinking I am some kind of monster because I couldn’t just be with one partner. I did not cheat but kind of always had other love interests. Fortunately, my partner of 20+ years now was able to accept this as part of me. And now there is no risk of cheating for either of us because we can just be honest if there is someone else. It doesn’t change my love for him, it even made our bond stronger because it needs even more loyalty and acceptance of the needs of your partner to let them be.
My ex was always rambling about how men were always unfaithful, “oops I slipped and my dick ended up inside her” she used to say, to describe how easily men are unfaithful. She made it absolutely clear she wanted a monogamous relationship.
I was never unfaithful to her, but of course it turned out she was herself unfaithful numerous times, and it was crazy how bad she was at hiding it, almost like she wanted me to break up. So I did, and good riddance!!!
Later when I was moving in with a new girlfriend, and I was collecting some of my things at my ex, she was all dressed up, and all over me, kissing me and trying to win me back. She tried to kiss me on my mouth but I turned my head so it was on the cheek.
My girlfriend was waiting in the car outside, and she saw the lipstick on my cheek when I came back, obviously not too happy about it. But I explained it was all my ex and not me.
Lucky for me she didn’t ditch me, and later my new girlfriend agreed to become my wife, and we’ve been together for 20 years now! 🥰A friend of mine had just bought a very expensive apartment in Copenhagen together with his girlfriend. The papers were signed and the deal was closed. There are a few days where you can get out of the deal, and in that period my friend was told his girlfriend had been unfaithful. He didn’t believe it at first, but the day after the deadline for getting out of the purchase, his girlfriend broke up!
I’m not saying women are worse than men, but the idea that men are more unfaithful than women is bullshit. There are more men than women in the relevant age groups, so obviously on average women have more sex than men do. That’s simply a statistical necessity.
Hah I’ve never heard the Pigeon Hole Principle applied to infidelity. Pecker Hole Principle?
I never heard of this Principle, despite having applied this myself to male/female dating society (including infidelity).
I always imagined it as a Pairing Musical Chairs Principle, where m and n are the amount of chairs and people in team A, and n and m in team B, where n > m.
Thus team A mostly rushes for any chair doing little else, while team B either don’t bother playing the same game and instead decorate their respective chairs at team A or they fight for the taken chair that’s always greener than the free ones.It’s math principle. But it assumes the massively oversimplified scenario that you’re pairing up groups A and B in basically one go. This is nowhere near reflective of reality.
As for your description…how do I put this delicately…I think you’re overthinking it. I wish you well, bud, I really do.
Pigeon Hole Principle
Thanks I never heard of that, but that seems to perfectly describe the principle.
Tw: child rape, abuse, drugs, cults, alcoholism, all kinds of random stuff.
Nah that person’s a piece of shit. Everybody laughing could be in a state of internal WTF JUST LAUGH ALONG or actually be part of whatever shitty culture. A lot of places legitimately don’t see how this is just insanely bad emotional maturity.
Remember though, people are VERY dynamic… Whenever you think you know the range of what people are like, just remember that you’re wrong and you ain’t seen nothing yet, and there are still far more conservative and far more liberal, and far smarter, and far dumber, and far more messed up stuff out there.
I dated a dude last summer that was telling me about a trans girl he dated years ago that grew up in a trailer park, hooked on meth, and was habitually raped by adults her whole life and everybody in that meth cult thought it was normal.
I’ve known wealthy people who were good people, wealthy people who were bad people, poor people who grew up and embraced greed and became rich, slum lords, teachers that cheat on each other and end up trading spouses and remarry. Old retired people having orgies, bdsm people who want to be whipped bloody to get off, and also 40 year old virgins and people who will never, ever find anybody because of circumstances and they think it’s okay. Forgiving people, people who hold grudges, people who judge blindly, people who live in their own world of privilege, people who are miserable from listening to nothing but npr, sociopath guys who want to get with me, girls who flirt with me but rob me, people absolutely addicted to drugz nonstop everyday but otherwise are perfectly functional members of society, people with iq of 50, people with iq of 170. Families that behave like Mafia and families that behave like community leaders. Families that barely resemble families
There is always a bigger fish in the pond. There is always somebody who pushes your understanding of what an npc can be. Everybody’s so incredibly different, yet in a certain light, we are all the same.
My point is, be yourself. If it sounds off to you, then it isn’t a good fit for you. Use your best judgement, try to think deeply to define your morality by reading some simple philosophy - or not. You’re special and unique and that’s okay. Life is a long journey of finding what you like and what likes you back. It really is worth standing up for what you believe in, but also try to keep an open mind and at least truly understand what other people’s lives are like. But you still need to put your own mask on before you can help others. And remember, it’s your life, it truly is what you make of it.
People are all dumb though and make mistakes. We’re just animals, all learning by making our own mistakes. Some not learning, some deciding that they want power, others deciding on bizarre motives.
You do you, and pave your own way. Be honest with yourself though, that’ll save you a lifetime of time.
It seems fairly common. What seems to happen a lot is people get dissatisfied in their current relationship but don’t want the drama or risk of breaking up.
For some odd reason it seems easier to meet people when you are already in a relationship so they take the opportunity to cheat while still staying with their stable partner.
There’s been a decent amount of discussion online that when you are already in a relationship, you’ve been “vetted” so to speak. Obviously bullshit, as what your current partner may find acceptable can have jack to do with what anyone else finds acceptable. Also, if you have a break up, somehow you’re no longer vetted because clearly you have some problems if you had a break up.
It’s all pretty/petty bullshit but it’s definitely a thing. Even my clueless ass has noticed it. Women are more comfortable around me now that I’m obviously taken (wedding ring). Not that they weren’t before, but diving into deep/private conversation stuff at a far faster rate. Like I pride myself on being trustworthy and a good listener, but you gotta chill.
That increased comfort also includes more comfortable to make passes at me. No thanks, wife and I aren’t looking for a third.
Some people are just shittier than others. What they look like on the outside has no bearing on their inner beauty.
IIRC it’s like a half or a third of the population that cheats, when research has been conducted. So, it’s normal in the sense of common. But, like others have said, your reunion people sound like were trying to convince themselves it’s normal in the sense of acceptable. And anecdotally it does tend to be the same people over and over again.
Polyamoury is also getting mentioned, but that’s a different thing, and poly people are a couple percent of the population at most, with far fewer actually living the lifestyle.
IIRC it’s like a half or a third of the population that cheats,
That’s always what I have estimated the percentage of assholes or bad people from personal sampling throughout my life.
I’d actually go way higher. The ones that seem nice are the easiest to externally pressure into doing bad things, which counts as being a bad person.
What does it mean to do a bad thing? (I don’t belive in good/bad people, so I’m curious on how you construct that worldview)
I mean, there’s all kinds of ethical philosophy out there. I don’t really deviate too far from it.
In practice, there’s a lot that most people can agree on without too much thought, too. For example, the classical case study for how being agreeable can work against doing the right thing is how ordinary and nice a lot of Nazis were, when not being ordered into atrocities.
First off, thanks for answering. I’m a bit obsessed with this kinda stuff.
I mean, there’s all kinds of ethical philosophy out there. I don’t really deviate too far from it.
So vaguely western ethics? I mean some ethics frameworks are quite incompatible.
In practice, there’s a lot that most people can agree on without too much thought, too.
This is a theme I see. It’s fair to not think through it, especially when it feels obvious.
For example, the classical case study for how being agreeable can work against doing the right thing is how ordinary and nice a lot of Nazis were, when not being ordered into atrocities.
This is consistent with the above statements. I sorta agree, but obviously I have a different worldview.
So my best guess given all that is that doing a bad thing from your perspective is: Doing something you consciously know will bring harm to others.
Which I think requires:
- Free will / Independence / a distinction between internal and external.
Does that sound right?
I mean some ethics frameworks are quite incompatible.
Yes, I just meant I don’t have much to add that hasn’t been said already. I lean pretty consequentialist, if that’s relevant.
I guess I should say I don’t really believe in judging people either, per se. OP said the world is 1/3 assholes, which implies 2/3 are off the hook. 2/3 are not off the hook, pretty much everyone is part of one problem or another, and should do better (but won’t).
Doing something you consciously know will bring harm to others.
Drop “consciously know”. People who can rationalise things really well are common, and I wouldn’t distinguish in any sense between a bad pair of shoes and a bad person. Both are obstacles to the world being how I (and most people) think the world should be.
I guess I will include local causality, as a sort of distinction between internal and external. A human being as a subsystem can’t respond to information it doesn’t have as input. That goes for a computer or ordinary rock too.
(I get this has gone on a while, of ya wanna stop just tell me. That way I’m not waiting on your reply.)
I lean pretty consequentialist, if that’s relevant.
Yeah that’s pretty helpful. It’s nice to be able to look into that without taking up too much of your time.
I guess I should say I don’t really believe in judging people either, per se.
Noted! This lines up with your last paragraph on not being able to use info you don’t have. That sort of reasoning drives a lot of my non-judgement as well.
I wouldn’t distinguish in any sense between a bad pair of shoes and a bad person.
This sort of dryness speaks to me. I disagree, but I like the energy it’s putting out there. I don’t put extra moral weight into humans. I’m no human exceptionalist.
So this all leads me to two questions that have a lot to do with practical application:
- You said
Both are obstacles to the world being how I (and most people) think the world should be.
Does this imply that human consensus drives the goodness / badness of an action and therefore the goodness / badness of the actor that brought about that action?
If so, what happens when there isn’t consensus? Sometimes a non-consesus still has intense emotions behind it (abortion for example). Also does that mean minority opinions are morally less good?
If not, what defines an action’s good/badness?
- What are the implications of an actor being bad? There’s a reason we designated them. What for?
2/3 are not off the hook,
Off what hook? What would being on the hook be for someone?
I would toss bad shoes. But also I know shoes don’t think about being tossed. I guess I could extend an earlier thought and say we do whatever the consensus is to that actor. That way we maximize goodness. Though I think leaving it at that would allow us to justify some radical things.
All said and done, the concept that people should be monogamous isn’t natural. Look at the animal kingdom. It’s pretty rare.
Some people just don’t fit that mold. But society tends to look down on them. So for some, bucking the system is probably a source of joy and achievement that they want to share. For the listeners, humans often go along with things to avoid awkward interactions. Then go home later and say to someone, “I can’t believe she just said that.”It’s not the standard approach, but there’s definitely examples. The trick being that swans have secret affairs fairly frequently as well.
That being said, it sounds like you’re talking about being poly, and as far as I can tell most philanderers just aren’t. They cheat but don’t want to be cheated on.
Not really poly, just more fluid about changing relationships. Basically, more short term, not life long, commitments. When it isn’t enough for a person, move on. And that shouldn’t be considered a failing of the other. People change, interests change, newness wears off. That’s natural. Society considering unmarried men as unstable, and unmarried women as somehow broken is just not right.
If there are kids involved it gets more complicated of course. Then it gets into some kind of marriage contract or something. But raising kids these days is broken too. You almost need a professional involved full time just to keep up with all the things kids really need. Most of us parents just can’t do it all, both from a time/energy perspective and a skill perspective.Yep. The whole idea of unbreakable marriages, and of being chaste outside of them, almost certainly comes from there being no contraceptives until recently. Although, it gets more complicated when you consider extended families used to play a big role in raising children as well.
Cheating makes stories, gets talked about by both sides and is overall contentious. Fidelity is literally having nothing to tell, so when a cheater talks, it seems like everyone is cheating, but that is far from the truth.
Best answer.
A lot of people cheat at some point in their lives, but most have the good sense to be less flippant about it. People who act like this are not the kind of people that you would want a relationship with anyway. You’re not rare, but they’re not common either.
Welcome to The Against Matrimony Club, we have mimosas.
The against monogamy club has coke and group sex
I am not one to force monogamy on people, though I personally am not interested in being with anyone but my partner. That being said, I think it’s wrong for anyone to violate a partner’s trust. I find it messed up that your high school peer bragged about betraying someone who she claimed to care about (at the time). In a nutshell, it seems like it would be good for society if we got over our puritanical zeal for enforcing monogamy, since some people clearly are wired to need multiple physical partners while still wanting to emotionally connect to one person. But I personally would continue to only be with my chosen partner.
Cheating is complicated. Yeah some people just will, they are fooling themselves when they say they won’t. Some people find it sexy, they literally want to cheat, they think it’s hot. Others will if the situation gets extreme, people in dead bedroom situations who want to keep their family together and make the calculation (or miscalculation) that cheating is less damaging than divorcing. I worked with old people when I was younger, my bosses were old Spanish people who married for business reasons but had lovers, they did not love each other in a romantic way.
I’d say that as divorce becomes easier to get, marriage more based on love rather than alliance and monogamy less required, there is probably less cheating. But it won’t ever be zero.
If you are asking is cheating universal? No. It’s not.
I can’t answer as to frequency, but I can say that recently a woman I know slightly cheated on her husband of 20 plus years, and the reason I know this is because he hired a private investigator and put the video of her kissing the other dude on Facebook. Apparently he did not include the video of them having sex but it exists. That seems like a really heinous thing for him to do, but if you know this family they’re actually really well raised good members of the community, and he’s clearly extremely hurt, stating that the depth of her lies to him was unreal. This woman’s mother is a saint walking upon the earth, without a shadow of a doubt, and her daughter was what seemed to be a very ethical well brought up mother herself raised in the Christian faith (not the conservative kind but the really decent person kind), so this was all a big shock. Apparently she was just lying to everyone, including her saint of a mother, all along. Her husband asked her to stop the affair (which was with some guy she had known for years) until they separated houses, but she kept on and kept on lying about it until she was caught on tape.
So until someone’s mask slips, you just really never know what someone will do.
Cheating is definitely in the minority of my social circle. I know of 2 amongst 100. At least people who were shameless enough to be admitting it.
That said, I do have maybe 5 open relationships in my friend group? I don’t usually ask, so maybe 10 total. My wife and I are monogamous. If you’re not, whatever, you do you. It isn’t a religious thing, it’s just how we roll.
But good lord at least talk about it, agree on it and stick with it. If you don’t then you’re a dick.
