You don’t understand, their support of lesser fascism is necessary to avoid the greater fascism, so by opposing them you’re actually supporting the greater fascism
I’d accept a viable alternative. Wake me up when we have one.
whoops, world ended
Damn, if only if I had been more moral.
proactive
Show me how I’m not being proactive enough.
Weren’t you being facetious?
If the world was ending, it wouldn’t be because we lacked morals but because we lacked action. I think we agree on what’s moral, we just disagree about how much of what action is needed.
Oh yeah, you’re right. I lost the thread. Don’t mind msorry. Im seriously sorry.
Are you currently involved in trying to replace First-past-the-post voting in your state?
You don’t get to tell people they don’t get to vote how they want and then do nothing to fix the voting system that is the source of the spoiler effect. We’ll, you could if you didn’t really care about democracy at all and just want your preference to win at all costs.
So is it party over country or is your state going to stop using First-past-the-post voting?
I’m a huge advocate for first past the post. I’d love to see it happen in my state.
Yup. We need lesser of two in red districts and vote for our ideals in our safe districts to move the part as a whole.
there you go using mathematics and democracy
neither of these things work on .ml
they have their own fantasy science
I’m just so impressed by them. Forgoing all forms of capitalism so they are not totally responsible for the outcomes of capitalist society. It’s a principled stance but living in stateless, technology absent, collectives outside the rule of the government is not an easy life.
i love the fact that their science says that the fact that their system has never worked proves that it will surely work next time
i think i prefer real science
I was talking about this with my wife. I’d live in a socialist or communist run government, at least the one they fantasize about, but I would never live long enough to see it enacted, as leftists envision.
So in my mind I have two choices that aren’t exactly mutually exclusive:
1.) Openly support communism without thought about what the final outcome of that may actually be because I won’t be alive to guide it (as if I’d have much say).
2.) Just keep working to make the world I live in better
Both are fine options and I can do both but they would have me chose the former and exclude the latter.
Openly support communism without thought about what the final outcome of that may actually be
Just keep working to make the world I live in better
They’re the same picture.
You sound so sure. I don’t share that level of delusion.
You’re replying to a dbzer0 btw.
True. Sorry, your ideology lost so hard that half of it was Trump’s 1st term policy. Concede to the left for once in your god damn lives or suffer liberals.
Concede to the left for once in your god damn lives or suffer liberals.
They’ll choose suffering. They love Trump, its why they didn’t arrest him. He doesn’t hurt the bottom line, just the poors, browns, and queers.
well its the most left wing party in the US that has a chance of winning
Even when the Democratic party does win, the working class still loses.
📺 Why the Democratic Party CANNOT and WILL NOT be Reformed
Democrats would rather lose to a Republican, to a conservative, to a fascist, to Trump, than address the material conditions of the American people.
Being left of reps doesn’t make you left.
no, but it unfortunatly is the only option for leftists in the US (or revolution cough cough)
if Democrats are the only option then leftists have no option on the ballot. buuut Democrats are losers even when they win, so might as well vote for the “actually leftist” parties instead. they’ll lose the election, but Dems lose after they win.
if voting for a representative cuz “they can win”, but when they win they don’t represent you, why even vote? fuuuuck that shit.
Dems suck, they think/act like they know best. they’re gonna do what they’re gonna do and and we need to follow em like good employees or kiddos.
I’m good voting 3rd party. ill take my L rather than vote for a loser
My take from the person that you are replying to is that they support Fetterman
🎤he lies and says he’s a leftist man
Can’t vote for fettermaaaaan
if he’s a color, it’s deep R red
Can’t vote for fetterman 🎶
Yeah the most pro Nazi democrat of them all. Er go I have no choice but assume this person is just a fascist that doesn’t like the optics of republicans except when, of course, they apparently do.
Years of lesser of two evil voting has sent us to the lesser of two genocides, and the US picked the bigger genocide anyway. How long are you going to imagine that as being a viable strategy? How many genocide only elections will it take?
History will view lesser evil voters the same way they veiw ww2 German citizens who were just doing as they’re told.
You do realize that DSA candidates are fairly successful (to varying degrees of positive outcomes) regionally, and to a lesser extent PSL though they are further left.
It is this mindset from liberals such as yourself that actually stops good things from happening.
Also if the Democratic party keeps eating shit to/failing to accomplishing anything in the face of the open fascist party I don’t trust them to do anything good ever. You also discount all the marginalized people actively harmed by their right wing policies (and they are very much a right wing party).
Democrats are pro-nazi, pro-genocide, pro-police, pro-prison, pro-concentration camps, pro-deportations, pro-tariffs, pro-landlord, anti-healthcare, anti-worker, anti-trans, anti-gay, and anti-women. In what world are they even remotely left wing?
pro nazi? i think i accidentily entered a conspiracy sub, my bad chief
they support the IDF
They openly and fiercely support azov nazis
That user seems to be a pro-EU Dutch liberal lol. It wouldn’t surprise me if they smugly pretend Ukraine doesn’t have a nazi problem.
Those who downplay the role of neonazis in e.g. Ukraine are usually neonazis themselves. Funny how EU governments pretend to “struggle” to deal with them but openly facilitate their existence at the same time.
Having a chance of winning means you are on the right, that’s the whole thing
lotta asterisks in that sentence lol
Just like the pit of infinite despair and spiked dildos is technically different from the pit of infinite spiked dildos and despair; being to the left of republicans because you want to burn orphans for warmth instead of fun does not make you left wing nor a good choice.
And they do nothing for the left when they do win - fuck them.
Not dividing the left, just consolidating the right
Anarchy is not left unless they’ve all of a sudden come around on social programs.
come around on social programs.
Wat.
Anarchists are the ones who are consistently making social programs from scratch. Direct action is and has always been about feeding people as well as sabotaging bulldozers.
i think they’re conflating anarchists with “anarcho”-capitalists
“Anarcho”-Capitalists are as Anarchist as Capitalist-“Libertarians” are acturally Libertarian
Yup, mutal aid and communal efforts are the cornerstones of real anarchism.
Welfare capitalism is not the left; it’s the leftmost part of the right. The left is socialism. Anarchists are socialists. Liberals are not.
The American Libertarian sects tend to loosely regard themselves as anarchist, which is frustrating as all hell.
Anarcho-capitalism is opportunistic enough to co-opt anything.
Anarcho-capitalism is such an oxymoron too, capitalism is inherently an unjust hierarchy
capitalism itself does that pretty well
As an Anarcho-Syndicalist we dont support government owned social programs because we prefer community based and worker ran solutions to issues like housing, food, and education. Furthermore most social ills that exist today are a direct or indirect effect of capitalism, the problems that cannot be solved by simply destroying capitalism can be solved with more syndicates.
I only intend to come across as ignorant (vice malicious) but what is a community/worker run organization of aid and coordination if not a government (at a small scale)?
Its not a government, it’s mutual aid. The goal isnt to increase numbers on a chart, its neighbors helping eachother.
This is why I love lemmy.
I get all angry on someone’s comment, and someone else has already made my point, and better. We’re even doing mutual aid in comments!
Sharing information is the greatest form of mutual aid :3
I generally agree with most of what you said, I’m not super familiar with anarcho-syndicalism But I am trying to have a genuine conversation
So reading this I’m like yes, yes, ok, love it
Then you say “furthermore most social ills that exist today…”
I immediately thought, ok but the practical ills that exist today? Is anarchno-syndicatism also against or at least neutral I suppose, world trade? I ask because I had a bilateral lung transplant, and when I consider the level of social support beyond just financial but also that too and access to medical services, this means supplies, well educated doctors, nurses and surgeons, facilities capable of a bilateral lung transplant, medications which are manufactured all over the world, the need is very high, it feels like this particular perspective would leave a person like me high and dry? At what point do we make the call that community support is enough and how do we define community? Those are all very critical questions for someone like me, and many other disabled people. I guess I wonder, although I agreed a lot with your comment is arachno-syndicatism abelist? Could this ideology ever result in successfully running a world class hospital?
I’ll adress all your questions and concerns:
- What is the Anarcho-Syndicalist view on world trade? While we support local communities we also explicitly dont believe in the concept of borders. Furthermore international syndicates are used under Anarcho-Syndicalism to facilitate trade and cooperation.
- Is Anarcho-Syndicalism ablest? Absolutely not, while we talk a lot about workers we belive eveyone has the right to life, freedom, housing, and bread. Even those who cannot work still recive support, those who require additional assistance would be given by mutal aid organizations and community effort.
- How does Anarcho-Syndicalism define community? A local collection of workers who look out for eachother through mutal aid
- Can Anarcho-Syndicalism build advanced medical infrastructure? Absolutely, if anything medical advancements would be greater. Medical students wouldn’t have to worry about being shackled to crippling debt, insurance companies wouldn’t be able to extort people, no profit incentive and no patents would insure the prices for medical technology remains low, and hospitals would generally speaking recive more funding.
The only actual job of the DNC is to suck up all the space and oxygen that a real left needs to grow, and rubber stamp every oppressive police measure they think they have to in order to secure the profits of the rich at the expense of all other life on Earth. The best of them are self-deluding soft exterminationists at this point, and the bulk of the party has apparently dispensed with even that fig leaf and embraced a kind of haughty, blue fascist schadenfreude regarding the people it failed to browbeat into supporting genocide. It’s genuinely the most disgusting thing I’ve ever seen in my life after the killing itself. The Democratic party is pathologically incapable of taking any responsibility for it’s action, has no desire to change anything, and is actively, dangerously hostile to all living beings, first and foremost human beings outside America. Nothing better will be allowed to grow unless it is thoroughly dismantled alongside the Republican party and most of the rest of the US government.
Never trust communists.
I’d argue that your average communist is moral and trustworthy right up until the moment they get any power, then they are just corrupt(able) politicians, ready and able to fuck over group A to benefit group B, who they happen to favor more this week (decisions must be made, after all!). No system is perfect, and definitely no individual.
Big picture view: The scales will tip every now and then, but it’s ultimately survival of the fittest system that wins, with none existing in isolation - there are always external forces at play.
With that in mind, I’d put my money on more limited socialist-style-carve-outs like single payer healthcare in the US, more rent controls and housing subsidies, slightly better employee protections. Just enough to placate the masses, while the ruling class mostly continues as before. Even this will require a massive effort. Post-republicans, of course.
They’re certainly more trustworthy than Liberals and completely better in every way to that fascist orange pig.
Just make sure to differentiate between communists, socialists and tankies
Fuck the lesser of two evils. I choose good.
DEMS: You have to understand we need to eat the shit. If we dont eat the shit the other guy is going to smear it on your face and the faces of your children. So, you see, eating the shit is necessary so that we dont have to smear it over more people’s faces.
Me: how the fuck are the only choices shit? Why dont we just not eat the shit and not have everyone horrified of us?
Because someone has to eat the shit
*the poors must eat the shit.
Trickle Down used be called “Horse and Sparrow Economics.” As in the horses eat the grain, and sparrows peck their meals from the horseshit.
They’ve somehow managed to convince a stunningly large number of gullible USians, that you need to eat shit to survive, or that its harm reduction or something…
Harm reduction is eating 15 pounds of shit, because the next guy will make you eat 16 pounds of shit. If you want a dental dam, you’re unrealistic.
“Purity politics and single issue voters are so toxic! All I said is we need to support an active genocide, fund more wars, keep kids in cages, ignore COVID, and do nothing about the cost of living going up with wages going down. Why does the left want to alienate people like me?!”
Dividing the left wouldn’t matter if we used a more representative voting system. One that gave people the freedom to vote how they want and still have their vote count if their preference didn’t win. Voters should be able to transfer their vote how they wish and stay represented. To have their vote count no matter what.
Why don’t blue states switch away from First-past-the-post voting? Republicans aren’t in power, they could easily make this change. Don’t they believe in democracy? Or do prefer this undemocratic hostage situation that hands the republicans power repeatedly?
Electoral Reform Videos
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems
Don’t they believe in democracy? Or do prefer this undemocratic hostage situation that hands the republicans power repeatedly?
It’s the second one. They all ultimately get paid by the same people, so that’s who’s interests they’re actually looking out for.
Alternative voting systems have in practice been proven useless, whether in South Korea, Japan, Australia, and many other capitalist dictatorship countries that use it. It might make bribery a bit more expensive, since there are more candidates to buy off, and more political advertising necessary, but it hasn’t fixed anything.
The root problem is capital standing above political power. And that can’t be undone using it’s own platform.
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You’re right that it doesn’t solve much but the two party system in the US is particularly terrible. Fundamental change is a lot harder to achieve than changing voting systems and even with a socialist state we’d want one of these, so I think there’s no point opposing it even if it isn’t a panacea
Electoral reform not only doesn’t address root causes, it doesn’t even treat the symptoms. It hasn’t prevented australia or japan from having far right governments, hasn’t returned land to indigenous peoples, hasn’t done anything against inequality, hasn’t empowered poorer peoples. All it does is make the political bribery slightly more expensive.
At a deeper level, representative elections always result in an oligarchy. The wealthy / economically dominant classes are the only ones who have enough money / prestige to finance their campaigns and win the popularity contest. It makes any political system based on elections nothing more than political theatre.
This is basic stuff even the ancient greeks knew, and communists learned through trial and error, yet liberals in the 21st century can’t wrap their heads around it.
All it does is make the political bribery slightly more expensive.
I disagree, i think it makes it possible for 3rd parties to succeed, maybe not in practice, but at least theoretically, which is a worthwhile change. But let’s grant that that’s all it does… that’s still a good thing and not worth opposing.
At a deeper level, representative elections always result in an oligarchy. The wealthy / economically dominant classes are the only ones who have enough money / prestige to finance their campaigns and win the popularity contest. It makes any political system based on elections nothing more than political theatre.
Yup, I agree with all this, but i don’t see it as a reason to oppose better election systems.
I disagree, i think it makes it possible for 3rd parties to succeed, maybe not in practice, but at least theoretically, which is a worthwhile change.
Let me give you example i know, Poland. It have on the face value much better electoral system than USA nad lo and behold, 17 political parties and 49 independents got elected to sejm! But each and every single one of them is neoliberal and EU and or/US bootlicker, there was nobody else to choose except open nazis. Dessalines is completely right.
That isn’t good evidence, we don’t have a large sample size and the culture can vary highly depending on the conditions at the start.
One country, even 10 countries, would not be a scientific study.
I think in the us it’d be possible to have a party that supports universal healthcare. Sure they’d still be libs but that would still massively help.
Nearly every country in Europe have similar electoral system, and everywhere neoliberalism is the dominant ideology for decades.
Better then more then half being fascists
They are all fascist, just not very scratched yet, but they all vote for supporting the neobanderites.
Agreed. Let’s not let perfect be the enemy of good. Even if it ONLY makes bribery more expensive, is that not a good thing?
When a casual acquaintance asks my political leaning, I say Democrat to keep things simple. But, really, I’m a Bernie guy. I don’t want to talk politics, and trying to explain that Democrats are actually center-right is just too much effort to put into… well, just about everyone nowadays.
Why don’t you just say progressive then seems to sum it up
Okay, but Sanders isn’t on the left, either, despite calling himself a socialist. Sanders will say that It’s OK to Be Angry About Capitalism, and he’ll complain about “crony” capitalism and “über” capitalism, but as a liberal he’ll never question capitalism as such. He’ll never question private ownership of the means of production.
Socialism != Communism though
It’s okay to say you’re a socialist but too not like communism.
I for one really like socialist policies like national healthcare which I get in the UK etc. But I don’t think full communism is the way to go for a modern society. Plus the track record of every time a country tries to head towards full communism, the door is left wide open for a dictator, and someone takes it.
Thia is kinda the point of the post tho is these guys think theres no room in the middle you must be full blown marx or bust. Which in this day and age is jist stupid
Then enjoy the continued lurch toward the right that’s been going on for generations, ever since the last time politicians feared socialism enough to make significant concessions. Previously:
When you have to go back 93 years to the Great Depression to find an example, you’ve made my point.
FDR did what he did to save capitalism from the threat of socialist revolution, and politicians have spent the last three generations clawing back the concessions he had made to socialist & labor agitators. They also purged socialists from labor unions, and they purged and even assassinated communists, to avoid any such thing happening again.
Chris Hedges, America: The Farewell Tour:
The New Deal, as Franklin Delano Roosevelt said, saved capitalism. It was put in place because socialists were a strong and serious threat. The oligarchs understood that with the breakdown of capitalism—something I expect we will again witness in our lifetimes—there was a possibility of a socialist revolution. They did not want to lose their wealth and power. Roosevelt, writing to a friend in 1930, said there was “no question in my mind that it is time for the country to become fairly radical for at least one generation. History shows that where this occurs occasionally, nations are saved from revolution.” In other words, Roosevelt went to his fellow oligarchs and said, “Hand over some of your money or you will lose all your money in a revolution.” And they complied. That is how the government created fifteen million jobs, Social Security, unemployment benefits, and public works projects. The capitalists did not do this because the suffering of the masses moved them to pity. They did this because they were scared.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of differences between socialism and communism.
Modes of production aside, socialism is just the transition period between capitalism and communism but does not have fundamentally different goals from communism. The goal of socialism is to reach communism. The differentiation is just a matter of how far society has progressed in that transition and their modes of production. Socialists are communists. Any differentiation outside of the above context is colloquial or otherwise a result of the uninformed misusing the terms as you have.
Nationalized healthcare in the UK != Socialism and != a socialist policy, it is a social/welfare program. Social/welfare programs are agnostic of modes of production, which is why they can exist in both socialist and capitalist economies.
Please refer to the socialism entry on Prolewiki as well as the modes of production link I added above. This is one of the most commonly confused things about socialism and communism. If you really want to say you don’t like the idea of communism, you should at least be informed about what it is you don’t like and don’t think applies to our modern society. These are short articles that collectively take <5 minutes to read through.
What you are advocating for is social democracy.
0·2 months agoMrScottyTay cannot see your comment becuaee shit.just.works has defederated from lemmygrad.
Shame. Thanks for the heads up!
Uk is monarchist, not socialist
Because he’s a politician and he understands that his rhetoric has to ramp up slowly to convince his audience. Go to your local pub/bar and say that to someone that isn’t a terminally online ML, see how they react.
heeheehee! if only the world was as simple as the mind that made this meme
It’s not as simple as this meme. But it did, however, basically happen back in 2016
i wonder if that’s true.
Cringehallry wins
Trumpism dies in the cradle
Roe v Wade Stands
Joe Biden never president
No “sleepy president” movement
We don’t deport protestors
Being Trans isn’t illegal
People aren’t sent to torture prisons without trial
No exec orders against lawyers for disagreeing with the government
I don’t drink myself to death
Seems a better timeline tbh.
stay in your own thread, woody
Heeheehee! If only not voting brought us further away from fascism
Heeheehee! If only voting brought us further away from fascism
Heeheeheehee, don’t vote, it’s pointless!
-Donald Trump 2016, while making a winkie face, and Donald Trump 2024, also making a winkie face
“reach for the sky!”
“there’s a snake in my boot!”
“this town aint big enough for the two of us”
They said the same thing about every Republican as what they say about Trump. If you live your entire life in hyperbole people get desensitized.
Thank you for your input my Gen Z pal, but I don’t recall any other president destroying law firms for representing their political opponents, nor calling for blatant retaliation against journalists that don’t jerk them off.
Also don’t personally recall a president deliberately destroying the economy through sheer stupidity, but maybe someone older can check in, it may have happened historically.
No, no they didn’t. I’ve been through a number Republican presidents… Well 3 others … And not one of them was said to be a threat to democracy, not one of them was said to be a threat to the rule of law, and not one of them was it questioned whether they would leave office if they lost election.
It is a bullshit statement to say Trump is a standard Republican and what Democrats are saying is just hyperbole, and this is what they always say. The only way you can possibly think this is if you’ve only been exposed to Trump presidencies.
Wow I didn’t know that “Glass Gaza Now Donny G” was the better option. You almost got me convinced, Eepy Joe was so much worse than “Remove the Gazans, let’s build a resort” DJT
You didn’t have an option moron. No matter what you losers do at the ballot box you get the same results. Maybe if your shitty party stood for something and all the people who didn’t vote for them actually cared enough to vote you’d have what you want. Instead you get what you fucking deserve.
Explain exactly why “kill the Palestinians, build a resort, send anyone who protests to a concentration camp” is a preferable policy.
The republicans and democrats have the same policy. The only difference is Trump has a big mouth. Maybe, just maybe, instead of fighting people on lemmy and guilting people for not supporting genocides you actually changed the policy of the party to make the Democrats accountable and had them state with words “We would not supply Israel with billions of dollars to murder people” then you would have won. You couldn’t do that. You can never do that because the policies of the parties are not different. The democrats have been in power for just as much time as the republicans or more this century and look at where that got you. You failed. This is your fault for supporting a party of losers.
If you did not vote in this last election when you could have, you are complicit in the Trump administration. You OK’d everything Trump is doing, plain and simple :(
I live in New York City so it literally does not matter how I voted. Because this is a fake system and the vote here was completely predetermined. Your fucking shithole party, that threw me off of the rolls during the primaries in 2016 because of where I live and the fact that we wanted change, did nothing to change ANYTHING that in all the years you had power. You are the one who OK’d everything by voting for and stumping for liberal candidates who support a dead-end system with no alternative but fascism. YOU are the one who OK’d a genocide. It was YOUR guy that allowed, approved and did nothing to stop the mass murder people with bombs and expected everyone to swallow and follow along. You are a literal supporter of genocide. You deserve Trump, because he is the only outcome of the American system you support, “plain and simple.” You genocidal ghoul who only cares about your own rights while you support people who mass murder around the world. You make me sick. Take your guilt and shove it up your ass, it is pure projection killer.
Policy you support:
Policy you support, Pic from 2022:
That happens no matter who you vote … So yeah sure, pretend voting 3p means you’re doing anything other increasing the chance of oppression
I’m not American but I probably would have voted Democrat if I was.
However, Democrats who are more mad at leftists voting third party than they’re mad at republicans or their own fucking party that simply could not be bothered to stop bombing children to gain the left-wing vote: Go fuck yourselves.
Anyone who didn’t vote against fascism is somewhat to blame.
I’ve been voting against fascism since '96 and I keep being told to vote for the lesser of two fascisms instead.
I take it you voted 3rd party then
Why would I throw my vote away? I voted for someone with a chance of winning.
You said you voted against fascism, but you voted for lesser fascism. I’d probably do the same but I’m not gonna pretend like Democrats are the good guys.
I see you are a republican shill. I hope they’re paying you very well for that.
God you’re stupid if you somehow came to that conclusion after I said I prefer the Democrats twice
Good thing they lost the elections then, right?
I’m not sure I understand what point you’re trying to make.
Democrats are not the left. It’s bad that they lose so often. If they weren’t so clearly beholden to their corporate donors they would win more.
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Lol, 39 comments on vegantheoryclub, 26 when viewed from hexbear, over a hundred on .ml, the .world crowd is upset.
I’m so glad their genocidal views don’t get cached on my precious server
