Couple of months prior, I read an article on Mozilla, where they did a research on automakers and found none comply to good privacy measures. I am planning to buy a used car. I want to know how the data is collected and transmitted.
The car comes with a connected app though I am not planning to use it. It also has apple car play and android auto. Should I use those? The article states some manufacturers even records sexual activities. How are they transmitting these informations? Through connected phones?
My use is fairly basic, I want to use the Bluetooth audio system in the car for listening to music on my phone. I use maps on my phone.
What about car servicing? Can they access stored information?
Drive older cars and learn how to fix them!
Easy - just keep pouring money into them, always, forever.
Edit: yes yes but this anecdote where an old car you heard about/own works forever for free
I prefer not burning fossil fuels
So walk.
So electric derived from coal is much better?
No, electric derived from solar or wind or hydro is best. The easiest way for homeowners to charge their cars is solar.
That’s dope. I didn’t know that was realistic.
#1 yes
#2 it can come from other, cleaner sources
Thanks!
What a terrible take.
First off, unironically yes on account of higher efficiency in electric engines over combustion engines.
Second, what grids still run on 100% coal? And why would they keep doing that long-term, given that coal is just shit on its own merits?
Sorry, I am not current. Didn’t know that solar is a lot more efficient and cheap nowadays. https://www.popsci.com/story/environment/cheap-renewable-energy-vs-fossil-fuels/
Where I live in Colorado, the grid is dominantly coal but they are slowly transitioning. Thank you for your insight.
32% coal vs 39% renewables, with natural gas making up the majority of the remainder - https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=CO#tabs-4
Oh come on don’t be annoying
Older EV?
For example I think the old leafs use the 3G data connection. Now that the 3G system has been retired no more data collecting!!
At least that is what I understand.
Most parts of Europe still have 2G service, so 3G isn’t fully dissapearing for at least the next 20 years there.
USA still has 2G, but 3G is definitely no longer around. Those frequencies have been portioned out for 4G LTE and 5G.
You’re right. I had a quick look on Wikipedia and it seems that 3G is getting shut down sooner due to frequency overlap with newer generations as you’ve said. 2G seems to not have so much overlap so it’s living longer.
I thought "if 2G is still around and is x years old and still isn’t fully disabled, then 3G which is y years old must have at least y-x years left. But alas, I was wrong, and thank you for correcting me.
Number 1) find the fuse that controls the modem and pull it. Without this your car can only report when the service techs hook it up to their diagnostics, and what is reported there versus what reports on the regular from the modem is a huge difference. You lose a lot of convenience this way, but that’s to be expected. CarPlay and auto give you a lot of that convenience back, but now you’re giving a lot of that same data to Apple and Google, even if all you think you’re doing is projecting maps from your phone to your infotainment. Do you trust them? You can use Bluetooth audio in most cars without using CarPlay or auto, that should be safe. Stick to maps on your phone if you don’t want Google or Apple getting your driving data.
Not the exact (and only) solution, but some manufacturers may have a Do Not Sell My Information request form. Subaru has it on their website and I submitted a request for myself. Obviously we won’t know if they actually follow through, but it’s worth a shot. Some people have experimented with going in and actually disabling the antenna that the car uses for telemetry, but that’s at your own risk and likely voiding warranties in the process.
I think using carplay/android auto isn’t as bad since the infotainment system is just projecting your phone’s display, so your phone’s privacy policies apply. Whether you trust those policies is of course up to you. Cars that force their own systems (like GMC I think) are more risky because you are using it directly.
Its better to disconnect the sensors than to trust policy
This is what you are looking for: https://youtu.be/pA0zYTmi5ck
I’m looking for an article or non-video documentation
If buying new, I believe you can ask to have the modem removed from the vehicle, which wouldn’t allow your car to access the internet. Haven’t had the opportunity to try this myself yet, but very much plan on it for whatever vehicle I purchase new in the future.
I find it very hard to believe anyone selling a new car would pull the modem out of one.
Maybe an independent mechanic can do so then?
I find it very believable they would tell they will pull it out. They really don’t give a shit and will say anything to get you buying a car.
Ha! I agree with you on that
You could get yourself a RF analyzer or an old Hammy (Ham radio enthusiast would likely have something you could borrow)and find out what they are using then that would allow you to figure out your options such as removing the antenna, sim card, or the module in some manner. The problem with removing modules could be they are tied into the cars electronic controller which could cause issues with the car even working.
RF analysis is kinda difficult, you’d need to take the car out into the middle of nowhere and have access to fairly good equipment. A tinySA would maybe work if you’re very patient but data transmissions are generally very bursty so it may be difficult to nail down where it’s coming from in a sane amount of time.
One option would be to try to figure out if there are any FCC filings for your car. All filings will have pictures of whatever module is being used and what antenna systems it uses which may give you a good idea of where it is and what it looks like. There should be an FCC ID mentioned somewhere at the beginning or end of the cars manual. Googling that should bring up some stuff.
Or you could just wrap your car in aluminium foil like a giant burrito
Ah, the tin foil car method
The situation here is rather bleak really.
Generally these cars have their own always on cellular data connection paid by the manufacturer. So they don’t depend on. Your phone for anything.
What they do is record and transmit any sensor data they can. The sexual activity you mentioned, comes from the sensors in the seats that are required to activate seatbelt warnings, or disable the airbags if a child is in the seat. Data from those pressure sensors can be used to determine if there’s a certain kind of rhythmic motion happening in a given seat.
They also collect any and all data they can from devices they connect to. Like phones. So don’t use carplay, or android auto. Don’t use their app. When using Bluetooth audio don’t give permissions to make calls or access contacts.
It should be possible to physically disable the onboard cellular radio. That will prevent any live data tracking. Exactly how depends on the specific car you’re looking at.
I would assume the dealer can access and download the data manually. Use private non-dealer repair shops for any regular maintance or any repairs possible.
So you’re saying if I fuck the same way Fremen walk the desert, they can’t track my car sex…
Precisely
Muad’Dik!
Wormsign!
My solution is to continue to only own old (mid-2000s or older) cars in perpetuity.
(And also use a bicycle instead for most trips.)
I recently bought a 2021 vehicle that has OnStar. I knew this would be a concern, but luckily there was a guide online to replace the antenna with a dummy antenna that isn’t ever able to connect to the network to send data.
So that might be an option! It’s still collecting but it’s not sending anything back.
Why the dummy antenna?
I think it throws an internal error if you pull the fuse or cut power to it? I’m not entirely sure. I did it so I could disable it and if I needed to re enable it for any reason it would be really easy.
I bought a 2024 vehicle with OnStar, I wonder if the process is comparable… Could you share your source please?
Here’s the Guide I used! I had to wing a little bit for my vehicle but it was still really easy https://quigs.blog/how-to-disable-onstar-on-the-chevy-bolt-to-protect-your-privacy/
I made a step by step guide to disable OnStar on my 2022 Bolt. Easy to do, not permanent, and doesn’t disable the cellphone, Bluetooth, GPS, compass, or hands free microphone.
Why would you host this on imgur?
You can do that on a Chevvy bolt? Fantastic
Can’t you just snip the OnStar wires?
As long as you have a Google or Apple phone in your pocket… The car will actually not gather much more than your phone already does… So don’t overthink it.
Most of us degoogle our Androids. No reason we can’t also de-spyware our cars
We need an online guide, based on make and model, on how to disable the transmission of this data.
I found a guide for disabling the transmission!
There’s a few youtube tutorials, but not many. Also, dissableing these will break certain features of your car.
I would be happy, to make it simpler, to have a set of instructions for how to disable transmission of all data. Basically I just want to know which cable to unplug or cut so the car cannot access the internet
Sometimes its just a fuse…
You really can’t
Also don’t start breaking your own car like some of these comments suggest. It can go wrong in many ways and may even harm the value of the car.
Oh no! Not the value of the car! /s
Some people have disposable income
I think the only good way to go is to break the transmitter inside the car and hope it doesn’t brick it.
You can probably cut a cable going to the transmitter than break the transmitter itself. Low voltage cables can be reconnected trivially.
Maybe but my guess is a lot of that stuff is Integrated onto a single board.
If you drive a Toyota and the infotainment system has a “DCM” icon in the corner, your driving habits and location are being recorded too a network server.
How are they connecting to the server, though the connected phone’s data via Bluetooth, carplay or satellites?
Sim card but prolly via your phone if it is connected to the car.
Esim
The people saying it uses your phone’s Internet connection are incorrect. The vehicles have built in cellular modems and connect directly. The OEMs negotiate cellular contracts to provide service in their vehicles with ATT, Verizon, etc.
Features like remote locking/unlocking, etc. would not work if it relied on being connected to a phone.
There was a Defcon talk a few years ago (oh god it was 8 years ago) where someone found a way mess with Chryslers because they were all on the Sprint wireless network. Things like lock out the physical controls on the radio then max out the volume, or turn it into a GPS tracker, or disable the brakes! The cars had some service listening on port 6667, there was no way to stop them from accepting malicious connections so Sprint just blocked all traffic on that port on their network at the request of Chrysler. The speaker mentioned they were sorry if you were unable to use IRC any more on Sprint wireless.
DEF CON 23 - Charlie Miller & Chris Valasek - Remote Exploitation of an Unaltered Passenger Vehicle
Most likely a cellular data service. That’s what GM uses for the OnStar stuff.
At least with OnStar you could unplug the antenna to neuter it (No idea if this still works with 2020+MY vehicles).
One issue with “hacky” methods suggested here I can see is they might disable eCall in the EU. And eCall is actually a safety improvement so for some it might be a very suboptimal compromise. But maybe if enough people show resistance to uncontrolled data collection then some meaningful legislation will be passed.
