The other day, my parents asked me (22M) if there were any women that I find attractive (I guess because they’re paranoid about me being gay lol) and I told them yes, there’s a fair number of women that I’ve seen in public that I’ve found attractive.
They asked me, “Do you talk to any of them?” and I said “No??? It’s inappropriate to approach women in public unless you have business with them.”
I told them that it is only appropriate for a man to talk to a woman he doesn’t know when the social situation is explicitly designed for meeting strangers—dating apps, hobby groups, meeting friends of friends, etc. In my view, cold approaching women you don’t know just because you’re attracted to them is harassment.
My parents told me that I’m being ridiculous and making excuses because I’m nervous. They are adamant that I need to learn to approach women or else I will never find a partner. I told them that times have changed and this is disrespectful and potentially predatory behavior along the lines of unsolicited flirting and catcalling. Approaching women is a violation of their personal space and could make them feel very uncomfortable, especially if they feel like they don’t have an easy way out.
My parents are almost 60 and they are very conservative, so they don’t exactly follow progressive discourse, and I feel like they’re super out of touch on this as a result. Particularly, my mom tends to strike up conversations with other women in public, and she’s skeptical when I tell her that I can’t do the same thing because I’m a man and would be viewed as a potential predator.
But I also don’t get out much, which makes me second-guess how distorted my understanding of the social world is from reality. My parents are like a broken clock, and sometimes they DO have a point about something despite 90% of their opinions being insane. Maybe there is a more nuanced reality that I’m not picking up on.
So I wanted to ask here. Are my parents out of touch? Am I out of touch? Are we both wrong? I want to know your opinion.
Do you ever make small talk with men with whom “you don’t have business?”
I’m assuming yes, you probably do. Speaking with women is the same, just be sure to pick up on cues if they don’t want to speak. In fact, I’d advise you to practice by making small talk with everyone you can, with no agenda, and pay attention to their cues.
The amount of times I’ve been in a pleasant conversation with a dude and when it becomes apparent I’m not available, they just immediately stop talking to me. Like… what? It’s abrupt, obvious, and super shitty to do to someone. And for the readers making assumptions about the scenarios–this wasn’t in a bar or a social event. It’s just random places in public where two people might make small talk.
I hope everyone takes your advice. Just talk to people to talk to people, without a transactional goal. Worst case scenario, you practice your conversation skills. Best case, you meet cool people and sometimes those people might want to meet up again or start texting etc. Boom a new friend that could be a relationship if you both are into it. Or you can just collect cool friends.
Disclaimer: This is for relationships and not just people to fuck. Go to places where other people are looking for that if you want to speed run fucking (bars, clubs, mixers, anime cons, etc.), which is totally fine.
Actually, I don’t. I am far more afraid of talking to men. All of the male family members I grew up around were violent. I was punched or choked as a kid if I did anything to offend them. And so, I learned to never do anything that could possibly provoke them for fear of what would happen to me. My mother also sometimes used corporal punishment on me, so I also learned to expect violence from women if they become angry.
So it seems like I have a general fear of offending people because, besides hurting others emotionally, I always expect violence to follow. The easiest way to avoid offending strangers is to never engage with them, and so that is the position I take by default. I don’t want to bother anymore.
And this is why I asked this question. I am now self-aware of the fact that I have a completely distorted hyper-paranoid mental model of social dynamics where negative reactions have nuclear consequences and must be avoided at all costs. At the same time, I know that most of my parents’ takes are pretty bad, but there is an occasional kernel of truth in what they say. I thought that this was likely to be one of those situations, so I wanted to see if others could help point out the nuance.
So far, I have lived my entire life under the fear of violence. It prevented countless friendships and social interactions from ever happening. I avoided everything bad at the cost of everything good, and it left me with nothing. That prevented me from learning a lot of common sense social norms, like when small talk is even appropriate. I just assume that it never is, and people would rather stare at their phones than ever talk to a stranger. I guess I’m wrong about that.
That’s a lot to process and unlearn tbh. I honestly wouldn’t worry about romantic or flirting interactions at this stage and maybe just practice lower stakes social interaction, yes like small talk. Like anything, conversation takes practice and you get better at it the more you do it. But the reality is, you can’t go into a situation expecting perfection. You will say something awkward or embarrassing at some point because that’s just human nature. We all have. Coping with that sort of thing is a necessary experience and skill. Maybe you could try going to an event geared for socializing and just challenge yourself to have two conversations, with no goal in mind. I think I would get used to casual interactions before attempting to figure out romantic ones.
The easiest way to avoid offending strangers is to never engage with them, and so that is the position I take by default. I don’t want to bother anymore.
I assume you recognize that isn’t a tenable position long term. If you’re looking to start growing from that point I have a suggestion.
This isn’t quite clear and definite, but there can be a small social gift you give to people when you have a small problem that they can easily solve. It takes a fair amount of time to develop this to know the boundaries and limits, but I’ll give you an easy one: Ask for the time
Just about any random stranger, when you are both at a location for a clearly legitimate reason (bus stop, grocery store, post office, etc), will give you the time when asked. This isn’t something to do when at 2AM outside a bar. Needing the time is a benign problem that everyone has had at one time in their lives, and its something nearly everyone in modern society can solve. The interaction is so easy its rote. Keep your distance and catch their attention (if they aren’t clearly focused on something else):
You: Excuse me, my phone died. Do you have the time?
Them: (Possibly sizing you up) Uhh, its 5:37
You: Thank you, I appreciate it.
Then you walk away. Practice that with people around until it doesn’t feel uncomfortable.
Wow, I’m sorry for the abuse that’s led you to the level of fear you live in. Of course it’s going to be hard for you to start any kind of connection with someone who might have a potential romantic component if you aren’t able to connect to people who don’t have that potential.
If you’re looking for broader advice, I’d recommend getting into some social groups for hobbies or business-type things. Board gaming, hiking, maker space, Toastmasters, cons; anything that gets you out of the house and meeting people.
Once in those groups, start socializing in general. Get more comfortable meeting people and establishing friendships. Realize that not everyone you meet will respond with violence and there are better people out there.
You won’t frequently get far if you aren’t in social settings where people are trying to meet other people; 95+% of the time any interaction like that is likely to be a one-off. But if you’re confident and friendly, sometimes it’s not. It is NOT predatory to still talk to people outside of those settings, but if you only talk to people you’re physically attracted to then it’s borderline weird and could be a bit predatory.
As you build the skill of talking to anyone and everyone, you’ll also develop better communication skills and more confidence (which, btw, happens to be one of the most attractive traits). And you might just find in the process of doing so that only talking to people you find physically attractive upfront isn’t the best way to meet a potential partner.
I’m genuinely sorry your family hasn’t helped you learn these skills and has actively undermined you in a way that makes it more difficult. Whether it’s a romantic interest, friendships, or your career, working on these skills will help you become a better person.
You don’t need a date. You need therapy.
Oh nooooo
So sorry those losers were not just losers but also abusers (no offense to good memories you have or good parts of them, if any, just covering my bases here b/c life’s complicated)
Would you like to try to build back some confidence here? Elderly folks can be so very sweet (and/or lonely). Next time you’re at a crosswalk and see someone who couldn’t even suddenly dive at you fast enough to make physical contact, you could broach a conversation.
stare at their phones
Maybe we’d rather, but it’s kinda killing us at least in a sense
Published today: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/on-the-death-of-daydreaming
tl;dr interrupting me when I’m on my phone is probably chill (maybe I’ll thank you, or excuse myself if I’m sending a work email/thing)
“Ninja” edit: before folks come @ me for the phone interruption thing (for good reason), mainly advocating for building up those small talk skills that abusers hampered through NO fault of your own
just be sure to pick up on cues
Yeah. About that…
Ok. But not everywhere is it accepted to have “small talk”…
I guess, but based upon his parents advice it sounds like it is where OP is.
I think there’s a lot of nuance that both sides of this are missing. There’s a lot of middle ground between not talking to women out in the world at all, and going up to random girls and saying "nice shoes, wanna fuck?
You absolutely can approach people, strike up a conversation, maybe even hit it off and spin it into a friendship or romantic relationship.
I’m far from the guy to tell someone how to do that and try to pick apart the it’s and outs of what makes some things ok and others not, but it is something that absolutely can be done.
“nice shoes, wanna fuck?”
Gotta say, if you are a bit spicy and they are too, if your shirt matches their shoes this might result in a date.
It wouldnt be the first time.
i’m not particular what you would call a normal guy and i have a lot of edgy views, but my take on this is simply that the main and by far number one reason why you’re not supposed to talk to women nowadays is because social media has instilled an outright fear of men in women.
you see, women are naturally very intelligent and pick up signals, even small ones, fast. if they see a hundred social media posts a day, and even one of them says something like “men are bad, keep away from them”, they will take the warning very seriously, even though there might be not much of a good reasoning behind it. maybe whoever wrote that social media post was only a crazy christian and was saying it because she was worried about staying “pure”. there are unfortunately christian people out there who think that “morale” and stuff like “staying pure [from men flirting with women]” are more important than understanding the social needs of the people. such is religion. over the internet it spreads like crazy. that’s why the women are all afraid of men. to which i respond with this meme:
(which means as much as: the fear is artificial and instilled; look at the actual predators. it is the rich)
My advice for you is: stay careful, as there are crazy “feminists” out there, who are only looking for a “catch”. For example, they want to test their “critique” on someone, and try to hurt you simply because they’re looking for a fight. but also, you must understand that only your heart will carry you forward, so you must listen to it. it is a difficult path to walk, but maybe you can try it.
I met almost all of my previous girlfriends (including my now wife) either at parties my friends threw, or hobbies I was interested in. I never once went to a club to pick people up or try to meet people intentionally in public. That’s always seemed too creepy for me.
Women are just people.
If you learn to talk to men you don’t know, you’ll learn to talk to women you don’t know. It’s not inappropriate unless you’re trying to get something out of the situation. So don’t. Just make some new friends. Of both sexes.
As for when/where, find some hobbies. Go do the hobbies. You’ll meet people at the hobbies. Some of those people will be ladies.
There’s a difference between “approaching women” and “APPROACHING WOMEN.”
You should be comfortable interacting with women in any environment simply because a) they are human beings and b) they’re over 50% of the population.
You can’t go outside and just never talk to women, that’s actually creepier.
You don’t have to be trying to pick someone up to, you know, treat them like a human being and talk to them.
I can chat up an old grandma but an attractive person will make me shit my pants
That’s something you need to get over and you do that by practice. Forget the “attractive” part, focus on the “person” part.
A classic book to read:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People
Easier said than done
I approached someone before the pan and asked for her number. She provided it and while it didn’t go anywhere, she complimented me for doing a real-life approach. But I’m twice your age, so I’d go with what peers your age tell you. The rules could be completely different.
You are wrong. Yeah times have changed, but not so much that you can’t just fucking talk to someone. Say hi, strike up a conversation, whatever, and trust that anyone who doesn’t want to talk will say so. The important thing when that happens is to listen to them and leave them alone.
Instead of making a move or straight up asking the out on a date. Just strike up a convo. You can really tell when someone doesn’t want to push a conversation. Maybe they find you attractive and keep the conversation going?
If you want to cold approach, go to the club.
Yeah I find that if the other person gives some dry responses in your conversation and you’re still trying to throw tinder making the conversation going, then they’re probably not interested.
I have a different problem - I sometimes perceive extremely attractive women as “usual”, until my head is too dizzy with them, and I also sometimes perceive them being kind as flirt, and flirt as being more serious, and being more serious as being kind, and all the combinations, and get confused when they approach me, and in general this leads to trying to start\see possible relationships being a point of pain. I don’t want to treat another human being as a piece of nice meat in any fundamental regard. At the same time when a beautiful woman does certain things with her facial muscles, willpower and feel of reality just leave the chat. At the same time she might be a very good person and do that as part of a sincere emotion, so just discarding moments where feel of reality leaves the chat would discard most of women who do that. And the rest would be discarded by fear of not delivering on expectations (not of being nice and smart, that I can accept mostly not being, but of being barely reliable and not again falling into depression or stagnating in personal development or emotional fakery or something like that).
OK, yes, this thread is not for autistic people.
Your parents might be right, you are paying too much attention to the rules. The rules are like a noise canceling filter, you shouldn’t apply them for moments important to you. If you really like someone, break the rules, then lick your wounds if she says that was ugly ; she most likely won’t. By breaking the rules I don’t mean doing anything , just what’s not fully appropriate, but not evil. Like - if you lost your phone and need to call someone urgently, how appropriate would it be to approach the first person you see? But is that justified? Relationships are kinda important and rare enough.
Yes and no. Now I’m not an expert womanizer by any means, but you kinda just gotta treat attractive women like regular people.
You can’t just walk up to somebody and go “ooga booga, wanna go out?” It’s gotta be a little casual. So you’re kind of right. But to go as far as to say you can’t strike up conversation with somebody will be insane.
Now am I going to strike up a conversation with an attractive woman? Nah I’m go pussyshit to do anything, I’ll partake in my recreational activities and hope for the best, at least I’ll die doing what I like.
Your parents are definitely right.
I like to talk to a room. i.e. i watch social cues to find an “in” then i try to start a public conversation?
deleted by creator
This thread is not meant for autistic people.
“Yes you can talk to women in public, but also not flirt with them even though that’s the obvious context of the post, but also there are some public places you can flirt with them that are somehow different from the other public places, and also it’s fine in the places where it isn’t.”
I’ve come to the conclusion from this thread that the answer lies somewhere near “actually some women hate it and some women don’t, and since the only way to find out which is which is by stepping on the landmine, you might as well flirt with anyone you want at wherever you see them, but do it politely and move on if she says no.”
And in all honesty, yeah fuck it, I’m gonna. I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but being that the other option is “die alone and get eaten by my cats” I think it’s just going to have to happen.
deleted by creator
i really want to be left alone in parks. i go there to chill, not to have some awkward dude sit down next to me and try to strike up a conversation with an obvious ulterior motive.
Just to point out how subjective the whole time-and-place thing is. Not saying someone with a lot of tact couldnt pull it off. But thats not the target demography of a post like this.
Getting to know someone through shared interests/common activities is definitely the safer route, not just for the guys.
I’m a guy, and if a girl sits down next to me and talks to me in a park or even in a bar, hundreds of red flags will be raised that there’d be an impromptu Soviet parade in my head.
Sure, I’d respond politely, but I’d be constantly wondering what she actually wants from me: recruit into a sus MLM thing? recruit into a sus cult? recruit into a sus MLM cult thing? And I am sure that if the genders were reversed (a guy hitting me up, a woman, all of a sudden), it’d not be a Soviet parade, but an all-out scramble for the bunkers. That’s not to say all women think the same as I do, though, but just echoing the OP’s sentiment, which I somehow agree on.
There are far safer avenues for talking to the person of your preferred gender (or non-gender), where flirting is tolerated more, than out in public.
Makes me think if I’m autistic
you might as well flirt with anyone you want at wherever you see them, but do it politely and move on if she says no.
Yeah that’s about all you can do in reality.
Just remember not to be persistent if it feels off immediately, do not violate anyone’s space more than necessary (do not go for physical contact as a rule of thumb, strike up a conversation instead, if unsure of social rules) and most importantly, listen to them and try your best to take the hint if they can’t find a way to be direct and instead attempt to politely fend you off.
But there are a lot of social rules and cues everyone should be aware of, which definitely makes it hard for those unable to feel them. It doesn’t mean you can’t try your darnest though. Intent is important, so as long as you mean no harm, and do not break the obvious rules of personal space and no is no, nothing irreversible will happen.
It is and will be awkward, but it often is for us too who can sense and understand (at least most of) the “rules”. That’s just being human.
The worst is if you overthink it. Just figure if it’s appropriate and follow some sensible rules of thumb if it’s hard to sense the appropriateness, and then be the awkward clumsy you that most of everyone is in context like this.
Even if you radiate charm, are a natural with words and gestures, are in perfect harmony with the ambiguous rules of social interactions etc, you’re bound to misread people and situations sooner rather than later, and that’s just something that happens.
Being human is… very human. That is, awkward and clumsy and often disappointing. The upside is that it’s also surprising, exciting, invigorating and so full of possibilities and such joy, if you just manage to get past the also very human aversion to any potential awkwardness or disappointments.
This became a weird rant. But as someone with adhd and some weird natural drive for other humans that I haven’t been able to understand myself, I do often fail to think things through and approach people without much thinking. I have the benefit of naturally not overthinking it until after the fact. The world has never ended and I’ve lived a colorful, socially rich life, and for whatever it’s worth, I’ve not ended up being perceived as a creep or a threat or whatever, at least not widely so. So that tells me it’s pretty hard to cause any real damage to yourself or others as long as you’re respectful, aware of the dynamic and even if not fully aware of the social cues and rules, follow a set of your own rules of thumb that you find result in socially acceptable behaviour.
Don’t let the fear of unknown or being ridiculed or whatever block you from having meaningful social interactions. Even the most charismatic or naturally social and talkative of us end up in awkward situations and sometimes end up disappointed or ashamed for reading the cues wrong. Stuff happens. That’s life. For everyone.
But just try and be mindful of the place, the time, the surroundings, and do not violate anyone’s personal space more than necessary, and take no as an answer immediately if even hinted at. Might sound like even that’s a lot, but in time, with practice, as with just about everything else we do, these things will start coming naturally and built in in our everyday goings on.
Trust in yourself if you mean no harm. That’s about it. No one can fault someone with good intentions and respectful manners, if they keep their space and don’t persist when told or hinted no. You might get ashamed or even shocked for how wrong you read stuff, but again, that happens to everyone, even if rarely. We are all humans, and there’s a baseline level of awkwardness and inability to really read anyone’s mind that comes with the territory. So just try and trust yourself in that.
Let me prephase this by saying that I have never been officially diagnosed but there’s a good chance that I’m in the spectrum.
This is my philosophy on the matter: you won’t find a girlfriend talking to a random person just because of their looks, so if it was a guy, would you talk to them? If the answer is no then I won’t. For example, pretty girl on the bus, I wouldn’t talk to a pretty guy on the bus so I don’t; Pretty girl talking about something I have an interest in, or similar, I might talk to a pretty guy doing that about our common interest so I feel it’s okay. That being said I’m not much for talking to random strangers in person unless we’re in a social gathering, and I would feel very uncomfortable itlf a random person came to talk to me out of the blue, so even though all that I said above there’s a 99% chance I won’t talk to a random person anyways.
I’m really impressed by how level headed everyone is here, to be honest.
I think the bigger issue here is that you are obviously uncomfortable with the idea of approaching people in public and your parents are treating this as irrelevant and something you are supposed to just force yourself to do it anyway despite feeling like the situation is wrong and threatening. You shouldn’t need to justify not wanting to do that by appealing to some kind of cultural authority about what is acceptable to society.
Personally even as a man it normally freaks me out when strangers approach me in public. It just feels like a very unusual, unexpected and potentially unsafe kind of circumstance, almost never something positive, there’s no way I would trust such a person, so I’m not going to do that to others because it’s like I would be inflicting that on both of us simultaneously, and that would of course come through in any interaction I attempted. How could I expect them to be receptive to that when I would never be myself? People may argue, that’s the wrong way to feel and so it doesn’t matter, replace that attitude with a better one, as if they themselves could easily substitute a totally different way of being for how they are.
If you need an invitation in order to feel safe in a social situation, I would say it is ok to demand that people respect that and not mock you for it.
I think the bigger issue here is that you are obviously uncomfortable with the idea of approaching people in public and your parents are treating this as irrelevant and something you are supposed to just force yourself to do it anyway despite feeling like the situation is wrong and threatening.
Unfortunately, this is normal behavior for them. They exhibit virtually no empathy and constantly talk trash about what expectations I don’t meet. They would rather laugh at me and insult me for having issues than actually help me. I’m on my own. They will spew the most vile filth imaginable, and when I insult them back, they suddenly get all pearl-clutchy and tell me that the Bible says I have to respect them no matter how awful they treat me. I tell them “Respect is a two-way street. You don’t have to be nice to people who make your life hell” and they go “B-but the BIBLE!!” They are cry-bullies. And their parenting was so psychotic that it radicalized me into becoming progressive. My brother, devout follower of their teachings, grew up to become a literal cat killer. And they treat him as a perfect child and ask why I can’t be like him. Yeah, uh, no thanks.
As a defense mechanism, I eventually learned to be contrarian. Whatever my parents said, I would take away the opposite lesson. Where they were rude, I was kind. Where they were discriminatory, I was inclusive. Where they promoted certain kinds of people as superior, I believed that no kind was inherently better than any other. Instead of ignoring suffering, I believed in helping those in need. The person I am resulted from my survival of this environment, not an embrace of it.
But this contrarianism prevents me from taking away nuanced lessons, and that means I need to intentionally seek that nuance. By asking about this issue, I hope to gain an understanding of some of that nuance, at least enough to help me continue to grow instead of falling into defeatism.
If you’re not dependent on your parents, think about cutting them out of your life or at least strongly reducing contact. Trust me, mich less stress this way, choose people who are good to you to keep around.
