As in, not known to you IRL.
I’ve occasionally brought it up before, but a while back in my reddit days I was in a thread where a “professional deprogrammer” had popped in and was talking about how to “deprogram” conservatives and get them to shift left in their views. It centered around restoring their sense of community and belonging with more balanced viewpoint folks IRL and away from their online echo chambers.
I asked them if they had any way to convert someone you encounter wholly online and they said that it was basically impossible, IRL you have a decent chance, but not online.
I’ve been thinking about that quite a bit, so now I’m curious if anybody here has actually gotten an online conservative to come to the dark side light side?
Most people do not respond to a single argument or fact. They accumulate multiple experiences. This is why the shift happens gradually for most people instead of instantly when they are confronted with facts.
No, they have ego issues that prevent self reflection.
I think contrapoints on YouTube 100% convinced me there is nothing strange or weird about trans people. They are just people and the way society treats them is wrong and we need to change that.
Not to say I hated trans people before but I didn’t know much about it and Natalie did a thorough job explaining in a way that was easy to understand.
Yes, however…
- Many people you meet online are not, strictly speaking, people.
- Of the remainder, many are there for a reason.
I would wholeheartedly agree with the deprogrammer with one clarification: “known to you IRL” refers more to anonymity than to whether your interactions take place online, and the reason for that is important to consider.
Yes, and this is generally how it works:
- Establish that you care about their perspective, and truly mean it. Most people can sniff out insincerity.
- Start asking good faith questions about their position. If their beliefs are misguided, they will begin stumbling upon the flaws on their own. It’s okay to guide them gently with the questions, but don’t try to convince of them of any particular viewpoint, and don’t tell them they are wrong either directly or indirectly. That can undo any progress you made. Just focus on encouraging them to deeply analyze logic that you recognize to be flawed.
- Only offer your perspective / opinions if you are asked directly. If you’ve done #1 and #2 well, this should start happening. I recommend understating your opinions. You don’t have to lie, but keep rants to a minimum and use soft language.
- Be consistent. No one changes their world view overnight. It takes planting seeds, watering them consistently, and waiting.
P.S. If you are doing this correctly and with an open mind, there’s actually a good chance you might change your opinions on a some things, and that’s okay (as long as they aren’t harmful). It also can show them by example that opinions are flexible and should be based on evidence, not the other way around.
Thank you, that’s very insightful and useful.
I don’t argue with conservatives online to try and change their minds. I argue with them to change the minds of people reading the argument. For every social media user that posts content, there are a thousand lurkers. I post arguments so hopefully some of those lurkers might change their mind away from nationalist authoritarianism
I argue with them to change the minds of people reading the argument.
This is why I would labour to keep arguing until either I get last word, or the interlocutor clearly runs out of good arguments. You can’t reason with people who never reason themselves into an idea to begin with. But you can convince the readers that the idea is dangerous and to keep away!
I just humour people when they tell me political opinions I don’t agree with. No one ever changes their minds.
absolutely not and i imagine the same is true for leftists.
I was raised super conservative, and the two biggest steps on my journey to the left were Jon Stewart Bernie Sanders
Jon got my attention by pointing out the hypocrisy that did in fact exist on both sides. It gave me a space to exist where I wasn’t just called a wrong dumb redneck and dismissed, but felt like he was actually trying to meet me where I was. That allowed me to let my guard down and actually listen to what he was saying.
Bernie Sanders came along in 2016 at a point where I would’ve called myself a centrist and basically did the same thing. Non judgmentally gave me a space to exist, listed some topics I cared about, then gave me a cause for them.
People don’t like being told they’re wrong. You cannot debate someone out of believing what they believe. What you can do is ask them questions. Get them to consider why they believe what they believe, and eventually they may start seeing contradictions and change their mind on their own.
If it means anything, I started my journey on lemmy as an armchair socialist who in practice was more a welfare capitalism type person. Now I’m a full on anarchist (anti-capitalist). So a steady stream of influence, especially when people make good points and it helps make sense of my suffering, has shifted my political views strongly.
(But the basis for that shift was already kind of laid out, I’ve been fascinated by anarchist critiques for a while, and one of my favourite political authors was one. But the sort of being in a community of likeminded people [lemmy] and having significant suffering at the hands of the current system that made me more strongly shift towards those views).
On the other hand. Simply having a few conversations with my vaguely left wing partner about my views has led her to go from vaguely social democrat to anarchist.
I think the lesson is change is possible, it’s just a slow series of events that add up. Usually there isn’t one thing that straight up switches a person.
That’s super unique because most people that are anarchists are anarcho-capitalists and that’s generally what people mean by ancap.
Anarchy sort of implies Capitalism.
Not really at all. Look up anarchism on wikipedia. This is the first paragraph:
Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that seeks to abolish all institutions that perpetuate authority, coercion, or hierarchy, primarily targeting the state and capitalism.[1] Anarchism advocates for the replacement of the state with stateless societies and voluntary free associations. A historically left-wing movement, anarchism is usually described as the libertarian wing of the socialist movement (libertarian socialism).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
“Anarcho-Capitalism” is a rather recent name for a sort of ideology that most anarchists would instead call “stateless capitalism”
You went from water up to your waist to water up to your chest.
This post is asking about people who aren’t in the water at all and have a visceral reaction to the mere suggestion that they even look at water, let alone go in it.
Maybe but I feel I’ve made it worse sometimes too.
There’s a couple sayings. ‘The smart man sounds like crazy man to the stupid man’ and ‘You can’t win an argument with an idiot’.
As complex as it can be, it usually boils down to that or you just find out they’re rich, selfish, like control, and love schadenfreude.
But what is if I think the conservative/fashist sounds crazy to me? Is he smart then?? Am I the stupid?
All people who are crazy are crazy. Not all people who seem crazy are crazy.
Maybe the fascist seems crazy cause he’s crazy, but maybe he seems crazy cause you’re the stupid.
I’ll claim the role of the smart man here. Fascists are stupid or self serving and short sighted.
I was raised Christian. I was taught homosexuality was a sin. I used to angrily preach at others to convert them or they’ll burn in hell. etc. etc.
Fuck those people
That said, no, I have not succeeded in shifting anyone’s views ever. Typically the people I encounter are beyond saving unless the things happening directly impact them.
It’s not online but at my usual bar I often get into arguments with a monarchist guy and a free-market/deregulation dude. They often tell me they’ll someday manage to make me “take the red pill”. It’s kind of annoying for them to disregard my views like that. That’s why I don’t actively try to change theirs.
I was raised Right. Change is a long series of events that no one person or interaction triggers. Dogma is only truly changed from within.
I grew up believing 9/11 was an inside job and the planes were military cargo ones with missile pods and the purpose was an auto-coup and also a heist of the gold bullion stored in the towers basement, vaccines caused autism and a range of other diseases, and I voted for Clive Palmer (Australia’s cheap dollar-store knockoff of Trump).
The turning point for me was getting off 4chan (I went via 99chan which became a nazi site before dying which is not great) , talking to more people besides just my mother and Aunt, and somehow stopping being a contrarian shitgibbon by losing the belief that all politics is irredeemably corrupt and a vote for Clive was a vote for chaos, respectively. I THINK I was looking for a world that was more interesting and made more sense than this one.
Ironically I started my internet life on &TOTSE, which is about as left as Lemmy, but there, I was an antisocial lying troll. Now I am not antisocial anymore.
I still believe that the moon is hollow and inhabited by ancient inbred families of cannibal Reptilians who aim to repopulate the earth but don’t have the means to return, but that’s fairly harmless IMO.
You’ve still got time.
I was in Geometry class when 9/11 happened. The day stopped. The news was turned on in class a few minutes before the second plane struck. I watched it in real time. I had been in those towers 6 months before too…
About the worst rabbit holes for me were giving any audience to perpetual motion trolls, and Brown’s gas nonsense in car stuff.
Everyone tries to simplify messy complexity and we are all tribal in scope. I’ve learned to only pay attention to people with academic credentials. I don’t watch translated nonsense from general news outlets. The information I pick up elsewhere is more collectivised where I expect to see a bunch of people talking about something from different angles before I view the information as relevant. I also do not care for any outlets claiming to bridge some divided narrative as these are controlling where the line in the sand is drawn. If two parties are Right and Right-Jihadists like in the USA, calling one party Left is manipulating by validating the status quo PR outdated perspective.
What changed me started with stratification of rock layers. It crossed a sharp dislike for biases and prejudice. I encountered a lot of plausible seeming arguments, but ultimately the people making those arguments had nothing to offer; they are trolls with no depth, interests, personality, community, richness in life. Look at such a person’s profile and they are not real. There is no greater engagement or value they add to the world. All they do is make arguments that muddle political narratives. I learned to view these people as either getting paid to post for idiots. I care about real people and that means your politics should only ever be a small part of your person and profile. Any person that lacks a serious passion project and hobby(s) but posts their politics is a joke to me.
In a way, I extend this to any group now. Like do people in your group include Nobel laureates that contribute significantly to the advancement of humanity. Because if they don’t, why bother wasting time with fools that lack top aspirations. Live life with no excuses. Excuses are for fools. Do the best you can with the cards you’re dealt in life.
I’ve just met more people. Friends coming out kind of forces you to re-evaluate the casual *phobia. I don’t think online can do it. You have to experience and learn yourself.
You have a different kind of functional thought than other people. We can all be very different. I do not need connections like this to empathise. I am very functionally abstracted. This is one of the more rare types of people in terms of functional thought and psychology.
I love that you think that you are right and that it the people that disagree with you who should change their mind. Have you ever considered that maybe u might need to change ur beliefs as well?
Hah, no. When I look at the conservative party all I see is hate, hate and more hate.
You hate the people that are different from you or whoever you’re told to hate. You spend so much time dressing up this hate to make it more palatable for yourself and others, but if you peel it all away, that’s what really drives you and your fellow conservatives and it is just shameful.
At least with the tankies, what they do, they do because it’ll bring true equality (or at least that’s what they’re led to believe).
The reign pullers for conservatives tells you to vote for them, support them, spread propaganda for them to hate on a group because some group deserves your hate for one inane reason or another.
The reign pullers for tankies have to get their support by promising good things like equality, the banishment of the rich, full unalienable human rights to include healthcare.
Yea the reign pullers are lying, they always do that on all sides, but what they have to lie to you about to get you to do the things they want you to do MATTERS.
And the lies they feed you, are disgusting.
Hah, no. When I look at the conservative party all I see is hate, hate and more hate.
American political parties do not define political perspective globally. U can have conservative views and still hate what the us conservative party is doing.
You hate the people that are different from you or whoever you’re told to hate. You spend so much time dressing up this hate to make it more palatable for yourself and others, but if you peel it all away, that’s what really drives you and your fellow conservatives and it is just shameful.
Not at all I hate people who oppose freedom and equal ity of opportunity. Turns out thats both parties when it comes to the us.
At least with the tankies, what they do, they do because it’ll bring true equality (or at least that’s what they’re led to believe).
That’s the same thing as what Hitler promised. The ends do not justify the means.
The reign pullers for conservatives tells you to vote for them, support them, spread propaganda for them to hate on a group because some group deserves your hate for one inane reason or another.
The left says the exact same thing for the exact same reasons just they point the hate at different groups of people.
The reign pullers for tankies have to get their support by promising good things like equality, the banishment of the rich, full unalienable human rights to include healthcare.
Equality of opportunity or equality of outcome cos those are 2 very different things. I would argue that’s its a human right to do with your own body as u choose. Its the same right that gives women the right to an abortion that also gives Nazis the right to spew their hate and wave their arms around as they please. You cannot have one without the other.
I’m in Australia where we have free healthcare and I think that it should be a free for all. In fact I’m fighting against the right wingers of my country who are trying to make our system more like your fucked up system.
Yea the reign pullers are lying, they always do that on all sides, but what they have to lie to you about to get you to do the things they want you to do MATTERS.
So why align with any political group if u know they are all the same playing the same games. Pick beliefs u believe in personaly from all sides of political ideology. Tribalism for any side is just as bad as tribalism for any other side do not try justify ur team to urself simply because they are your team.
And the lies they feed you, are disgusting.
I never said I believe the lies I’m simply saying that the side u hate because you where told to hate have some good points. This doesn’t mean I subscribe to all their beliefs nor do I subscriber to all the left wing beliefs.
We all have far more in common than things we don’t. I would encourage you to think/enquire why people u disagree with hold the beliefs they do with an open mind and you might just find u agree.
Hah, don’t try to play the reasonable middle-ground card with me.
American political parties do not define political perspective globally. U can have conservative views and still hate what the us conservative party is doing.
Sure, hide behind semantics. I’m clearly talking about conservatism as an ideology - the same ideology that opposes progress and protects hierarchies of power worldwide. Whether it’s the US Republican party, the UK Tories, or Australia’s Liberal party - it’s all built on the same foundations of preserving privilege for some at the expense of others.
Not at all I hate people who oppose freedom and equality of opportunity.
Bull. The policies your “side” keeps pushing TARGET specific groups of people - immigrants, LGBTQ+ folks, Black and brown communities. Don’t pretend it’s about some noble principle when the outcomes keep hurting the same people over and over.
That’s the same thing as what Hitler promised.
Are you seriously comparing leftist policies to Nazism? This is peak bad-faith argument. Hitler used promises of “equality” as a very thin veneer to scapegoat Jews and other minorities. Hitler’s “equality” was only (and openly) for his defined “master race” - it was exclusionary by design. Leftist policies aim to include everyone in their benefits. In some cases the same tactics the right uses today, Hitler was far closer to today’s right-wingers than left
The left says the exact same thing for the exact same reasons just they point the hate at different groups of people.
No, we don’t. Being intolerant of intolerance isn’t the same as hating someone for their identity. Calling out bigotry isn’t “hate” - it’s accountability. I refuse to accept this false equivalence.
Equality of opportunity or equality of outcome cos those are 2 very different things.
This talking point is so tired. There IS no “equality of opportunity” when systemic barriers exist from birth. Your side loves to pretend we’re all starting on equal footing when that’s demonstrably false.
I’m in Australia where we have free healthcare
Oh, so you enjoy the benefits of “leftist” policies while arguing against them? How convenient. And yes, your healthcare system IS better than our nightmare - because it operates on COLLECTIVE responsibility rather than individual “freedom.”
So why align with any political group if u know they are all the same playing the same games.
They’re not all the same, and that was my entire point about. What they lie ABOUT matters.
When progressive leaders lie, they’re promising universal healthcare, living wages, and equal rights they might not be able to deliver. When conservative leaders lie, they’re just literally scapegoating immigrants, LGBTQ+ people, and minorities for all of society’s problems.
I align with the side that at least has to PRETEND to care about making everyone’s lives better, not the side that openly campaigns on making certain people’s lives worse. The fact that you can’t see this difference proves you’re not the “free thinker” you claim to be.
Both sides have corruption and liars, but only one side has to appeal to basic human decency to get votes. That’s why it matters who supports whom, even knowing politicians will more likely than not disappoint me.
I never said I believe the lies
Yet here you are, repeating every conservative talking point in the book. You claim to be above it all while pushing the exact rhetoric that maintains the status quo.
Save your “both sides” nonsense for someone who’ll fall for it. I’m not interested.
Hah, don’t try to play the reasonable middle-ground card with me.
Are you saying what I’m saying is a reasonable middle ground? Cos the rest of your response looks like ur calling my beliefs non reasonable and not a middle ground.
Sure, hide behind semantics. I’m clearly talking about conservatism as an ideology - the same ideology that opposes progress and protects hierarchies of power worldwide. Whether it’s the US Republican party, the UK Tories, or Australia’s Liberal party - it’s all built on the same foundations of preserving privilege for some at the expense of others.
Do you truly believe half the population has absolutely zero good points?
Bull. The policies your “side” keeps pushing TARGET specific groups of people - immigrants, LGBTQ+ folks, Black and brown communities. Don’t pretend it’s about some noble principle when the outcomes keep hurting the same people over and over.
Again its not my side. I choose to believe in some of their beliefs. I’ve lost more liberties under left wing governments than I have under right wing governments.
Are you seriously comparing leftist policies to Nazism? This is peak bad-faith argument. Hitler used promises of “equality” as a very thin veneer to scapegoat Jews and other minorities. Hitler’s “equality” was only (and openly) for his defined “master race” - it was exclusionary by design. Leftist policies aim to include everyone in their benefits. In some cases the same tactics the right uses today, Hitler was far closer to today’s right-wingers than left
I am comparing the stated goals of Hitler to the stated goals of the left. Specific y in the context of tankies who are also supporting genocidal regimes. The lefts equality excludes me, I get paid less for the exact same job, and I get less scholarship opportunities simply because I’m a straight white man. Equality of outcome is actively fucking over my equality of opportunity.
No, we don’t. Being intolerant of intolerance isn’t the same as hating someone for their identity. Calling out bigotry isn’t “hate” - it’s accountability.
Because that’s all the left ever does huh? U seriously believe this? What are the tankies doing? Are they haring or just calling out bigotry?
I refuse to accept this false equivalence.
There u go proving my original point that your too ideologically captured to even consider the other side.
This talking point is so tired. There IS no “equality of opportunity” when systemic barriers exist from birth. Your side loves to pretend we’re all starting on equal footing when that’s demonstrably false.
I not claiming we have equality of opportunity I’m just saying that is what we should be aiming for.
Oh, so you enjoy the benefits of “leftist” policies while arguing against them? How convenient. And yes, your healthcare system IS better than our nightmare - because it operates on COLLECTIVE responsibility rather than individual “freedom.”
I do. I like a lot of leftist policies. I’m just arguing for you to consider that not all leftist policies are good and not all conservative policies are bad.
They’re not all the same, and that was my entire point about. What they lie ABOUT matters.
So u know ur being lied to, being sold a false dream and yet u are defending one lie because u think its a better lie than the other lie.
When progressive leaders lie, they’re promising universal healthcare, living wages, and equal rights they might not be able to deliver.
By equal rights do u mean no rights?
When conservative leaders lie, they’re just literally scapegoating immigrants, LGBTQ+ people, and minorities for all of society’s problems.
I think ur missing quite a bit on nuance here. But yes that’s essentially what they are doing.
I align with the side that at least has to PRETEND to care about making everyone’s lives better, not the side that openly campaigns on making certain people’s lives worse. The fact that you can’t see this difference proves you’re not the “free thinker” you claim to be.
It doesn’t make my life better. It makes my taxes worse, it gives other people more opportunities that I don’t have, it makes my vote less valuable, it erodes my liberties. Its the same its just that the left is scapegoating a different group. The fact u can’t see this proves that your are completely ideologically captured.
Both sides have corruption and liars, but only one side has to appeal to basic human decency to get votes. That’s why it matters who supports whom, even knowing politicians will more likely than not disappoint me.
Basic human decency huh? Do you think you are the righteous justified in any action as the ends justify any means? As I said before that’s what Hitlers followers believed.
Yet here you are, repeating every conservative talking point in the book. You claim to be above it all while pushing the exact rhetoric that maintains the status quo.
I believe I also pushed for free healthcare and bodily autonomy (the right to an abortion etc) I didn’t realise those where right wing talking points.
Save your “both sides” nonsense for someone who’ll fall for it. I’m not interested.
Again proving my original point that you cannot fathom the idea that the other side might have some good points. You are the one who is ideologically captured incapable of individual free thinking.
