a particularly high risk of suicide
As is expected from the traditional gender role.
If you’re someone who frequently looks at your gender and then complains “my gender typically suffers from x malady” and it’s not something that’s being forced upon you by external factors (such needing your partner to confirm your personal medical decisions with your doctor concerning future procreation or needing your partner’s permission to file for divorce), then maybe you should consider not being a typical example of your gender.
I have suicidal ideations and intrusive thoughts because a little voice likes to pop in every so often and tell me that killing myself would be super cool. So I take medicine to quiet the voice and tattle on it to my friends and family whenever it speaks up so they can help me assess if the advice is helpful or not. Is it “manly” to tell people close to me “I’m having suicidal thoughts and I don’t know why”? Nope. But I’d rather be a weirdo than hurt my family.
Tradmen and tradwives are terrible examples of how to be a human human.
As a woman whose male friends have made the same choices as you I gotta say, I’ve always preferred spending an evening supporting a friend to spending it mourning him.
Being alive has been one of my most consistent activities in my life
ETA: I appreciate your input and realizing that most of my friends in my contacts are women is one of my favorite self-evident reasons to reject gender roles. Something about my maladjusted peers blaming onlookers and victims for their maladjustment makes them insufferable to me.
In other words: guys gotta fix their shit or at least quit blaming women; anything less than that shouldn’t be tolerated by anyone.
The key to happiness is not having expectations haha. (Oversimplification, of course)
It is hilarious to me that you are paraphrasing a famous stoic philosophy, which is famously associated with masculinity, as a response to the ‘as expected’ higher suicide rate of gender role conforming men.
I didn’t expect you to say that. Behold my giddiness
By that measure, we’re all supposed to be fuckin’ ecstatic over here in the US right now, then. 🥹
I mean, everything about the fetid amalgam of mud fuckery that’s festering to boil over… As a nation, the prevailing placating excuse (aka “flagrant lie”) seems to be: we simply did nazi that coming. 🤷🏼♂️
External factors that have power over you can of course ruin the “plan” so to speak lol
Ah, yes, the ol’ “Best laid plans of mice” and all that?
Swit-zerland, fac-tors, mas-culine, show-ing, Lu-cas, respons-es, ideo-logies, patriar-chal, inde-pendance?
Like it doesn’t matter? Good grief!
Yeah because we get in there and GET THE JOB DONE. Women are just “yak yak yak” right guys?
Guys…?
guys…?
AW NO BILLY!?! WHYYYY BILLY WHYYYYY. WHY DIDNT YOU SAY SOMETHING THAT I COULD HEAR OVER THE CONSTANT NEED FOR US TO TALK ABLUT LITERALLY ANYTHING OTHER THAN OUR FEELINGS!?!
Would I get downvoted for pointing out that this is one of the reasons I’m a feminist?
Maybe, but if self interest drives a man to solidarity with women to fight against the patriarchy then most of the women I know who actually read feminist theory would agree that it’s a perfectly valid contributing reason.
I think the patriarchy is bad for everyone. There are a lot of dudes who see male feminists as gender traitors, and it’s surprising how many I encounter on Lemmy.
I’d be interested to see what the rates of suicidal ideation are compared between men who do and don’t conform to traditional gender roles. Because there are a lot of contributing factors I can think of off the top of my head, like men who don’t conform as strictly to traditional gender norms are probably more likely to go see a therapist, so they are more likely to see a way out of their situation that doesn’t involve suicide. Also, men who more strictly conform to traditional gender norms probably are more likely to have guns in the home, and (as other studies have shown) men tend to prefer suicide by gun over pills/meds/other methods, so I’m curious if that has an impact as well.
It does, yes
Okay good, thank you. I couldn’t find any info in the originally linked article.
Anecdotally I am both of those. I grew up in a deep south military family, and I used to have a sidearm that I assigned way more of my identity to than I should have and thought about using on myself more than i ever thought about using in any other way. I didn’t try therapy for the first time until my 30s, after I quit working for the airforce. Telling a man he needed therapy where I used to work was an insult no matter the context, and it was an open secret that you’d get fired if you sought any kind of mental healthcare. (not directly, but some security manager somewhere in the system would revoke your clearances and it would domino from there)
I’m still amazed I made it through that; it feels like almost every week I’m still blown away by how much different the world can be when it isn’t just a deluge of bigotry and hatred and doomsday weapons. If you can help it, don’t ever fucking make weapons. No matter how much they offer to pay you or pretend you’re a hero. It’s not worth your will to live
A long-term study in the US involving around 10,000 young men has already shown that they are more likely to commit suicide over a period of 20 years if they identify strongly with traditional masculine roles. These norms are characterized by ideas that originated from the previously strongly patriarchal social framework. They prescribe the characteristics that men should have and how they should behave. These include, for example, independence, controlling their emotions and not showing their vulnerability. In science, this is summarized under the term traditional masculine ideologies.
Toxic Masculinity is very real.
The Woke is trying to prevent REAL men from exercising their right to unalive themselves!
See. By not allowing me to be a 1940’s housewife–minus the spousal abuse–you put me at risk of suicide. Just let me cook, clean, and please my man/woman. 😩
They spend their entire life worrying about what everyone, from their family to complete strangers, will allow or not allow them to do. Can’t imagine the stress. So glad my parents raised me to just be myself, do what I want, and tell anyone who complains to fuck off.
Just the ones inclined to suicide.
Not just the ones inclined to suicide. Men from all different personality groups and mental states in the study worried about those thing and killed themselves over those things.
There is no non-traditional gender role for a man to assume. A man who does not work and provide, protect and defend is shamed as a deadbeat. His is the only end of the old social contract no one wants to throw away.
Yeah and any woman who doesn’t cook, clean and pop out children is shamed as selfish. Hmm wait, that’s the definition of traditional gender roles and the topic of the article / study, interesting. Guess there’s no alternatives to that for women either. It’s not like a man can’t just be themselves and content with that.
The fuck are you talking about? A woman can go be career driven or whatever. What else is there for a man?
Anything else. If someone questions your manhood, just tell them they are a daddy fucking dipshit and move on.
Being literally whatever the hell they want. The world is not black and white.
Society does not permit this and you’re being intellectually dishonest in suggesting otherwise.
There are, like, literally billions of men who don’t fit this archetype you’re describing. Many of them are beloved and idolized by society. Some are artists, musicians, dancers, writers. Lots are stoners or slackers. Some are clergy or philosophers or historians, and not always drawing steady income. And they can be surrounded by loved ones.
Go be yourself and stop caring about what some narrow slice of society expects.
And this study, that this article is about, specifically shows that believing this nonsense is correlated with suicide. That’s why it’s actually dangerous to try to convince people of this falsehood.
There are fewer than 4 billion men currently alive. And all of those liberal arts majors you just listed? Yeah they’re shamed as losers if their work doesn’t pay. Women don’t stay with the aspiring musician who refuses to get a day job so he can focus on his music but can never seem to land a gig. People idolize SUCCESSFUL artists, musicians, dancers, writers etc. We jail stoners especially if they aren’t white. What are YOU smoking?
There are fewer than 4 billion men currently alive.
Yes, and what percentage are everything that you expect a man to be? There are plenty of men who are smart but not protective, hard working but not high earning, etc.
If your whole definition of a successful man is based on whether a woman will stay with them long term, then first, I’d point out that’s a stupid definition, and second, even if we were to use that definitions there are plenty of ways that marriages fall apart. A man who doesn’t change diapers or won’t clean up after himself is at risk of getting left, no matter how much money he has. Bad communicators are also at risk. Infidelity destroys marriages. So does violence or angry outbursts. These are pretty far removed from what you’re talking about, and men who fall for believing in these rigid gender roles are exactly the type of people who find themselves receiving divorce papers. Plenty of high earning divorced boomer men out there, and there are plenty of happily married men who depend on their wives’ incomes.
Feminism since the 1970s has been advocating for financial independence for women so that they can leave someone regardless of how much they earn.
And more fundamentally, if the sole sign of manhood is being able to stay in a long relationship, then there are a lot of different ways to achieve that. Being authentic to oneself is an important way to have meaningful relationships with friends and families and spouses, and is an important foundation for a successful marriage, too.
Lol ok
My next door neighbor is a stay at home dad what are you on about?
And how long is that going to go on before his wife divorces him out of resentment?
Well, they’ve been together for at least 24 years so idk?
Of course they’re shamed as long as people who demand gender role adherence exist. Even if these conservatives were a small minority it would still technically be true that incompletely traditional men would be shamed. Shamed by them.
It is still true that any man that tries to meet their demands is more likely to commit suicide than s man eho rejects their demands and ignores them.
I’m sure you’re not wrong in arguing there’s no non-traditional gender role men can fulfill that is clearly defined and understood like the traditional one is. But that’s part of the rejection. You reject the role, you keep living, if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable. Or you just stay, while shutting them out or reducing contact. Often that means not being welcoming to cruel family members, and often it means not listening to your mother and father most of the time.
But that’s part of the rejection.
Why! 👏 Are! 👏 We! 👏 Rejecting! 👏 Norms! 👏 In! 👏 The! 👏 First! 👏 Place?!
You’re talking like a young feminist, one who has had a bank account since she was a teenager and has never actually lived in a world where she isn’t allowed to do anything her brother is. Feminists have or had a reason for rejecting traditional gender norms, but now treat rejection of traditional gender roles as “it’s what we do.” Foregone conclusion.
Men don’t have a reason to reject traditional gender norms and in fact have reasons not to. Chiefly: Survival. Men are the way they are because they have to be. Men are treated VERY poorly if they show any emotions. Anger is the only one he is sometimes allowed because just what the non-consentual fuck are you going to DO about it? That’s what I thought. It is sometimes possible to make people afraid of you in useful ways, to some young men it is the only source of genuine power they have. Any displays of vulnerability are an immediate invite to attack. People love kicking a man when he’s down. You can probably count any overt displays of joy or contentedness; people love ruining a man’s day. So you learn to swallow it all. If you can still walk, you’re fine. According to them, according to you, according to all. That’s the end of it.
if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable.
Great plan there! Abandon every survival tactic you’ve ever known and if any of the few actual allies in your life bitch about it abandon them too. Wander out into the world disarmed and entirely alone for…some fucking reason you’ve yet to elaborate upon.
“Traditional men commit suicide, weren’t you listening?” Causation or correlation? Does the act of being a manly man make one suicidal, or is it the growing expectation from society to continue to be more and more productive while pay stagnates, costs skyrocket, social contracts are broken and support structures are torn down all systematically and seemingly out of pure spite. So he either burns the village to feel its warmth or just pops his own cork.
======
I’ll point out one other thing: when a gay man comes out of the closet, when an atheist speaks up, when a woman goes to work, when an OK Go fan takes his headphones off, the thing they all have in common is “This is who I truly am, and that’s what I’m going to be now.” That’s not what’s happening among men. The energy you’re bringing here is “have you tried…not being trans?”
Nobody gets respect when clapping for emphasis.
Men don’t have a reason to reject traditional gender norms and in fact have reasons not to.
Some men who don’t reject gender roles kill themselves.
If they had rejected the criticism as invalid and distanced themselves from those people, it seems the data suggests they’d live longer. In my experience, it works.
if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable.
Great plan there! Abandon every survival tactic you’ve ever known and if any of the few actual allies in your life bitch about it abandon them too. Wander out into the world disarmed and entirely alone…
They’re not all your allies, and who you keep contact with and how you do it is up to you. You sound like you deeply fear the world, and instead choose familiar hostility.
The energy you’re bringing here is “have you tried…not being trans?”
How the fuck am I bringing that energy? I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about shutting out traditional family if necessary to avoid harassment. I wasn’t specifically thinking about trans people, but they fit under the broader umbrella of misfits living in tradition-town needing a way out that isn’t so final.
I don’t know if you want to try transitioning or not, I didn’t really get a picture of what you’re about. But no, I personally see no reason to tell people they can’t.
Look, there are good and bad people out there. But the average experience is less bad than having to endure prolonged adult contact with cruel family. People distance themselves from cruel people for good reason. People do move away when necessary, even if there are risks. For some people life didn’t really start before they kinda got away from their past like that.
But I just mentioned that as an option to not have to endure it. Often it’s enough to just distance yourself socially from the people who are a problem.
I’m very convinced you’re a ChatGPT-based disagree bot now. You’ve got the reading comprehension skills of one.
That’s fucked.
Some men who don’t reject gender roles kill themselves.
I pre-emptively addressed this.
“Traditional men commit suicide, weren’t you listening?” Causation or correlation?
I don’t get a sense that you have an idea in your head, you’re just disagreeing with me for it’s own sake. So my five minutes is up, I’m not paying for the full half hour.
You know that CD collection you posted, where the guy in the bottom right is hanging off the side holding onto a rope?
Do that, but hold on with your neck.
Calling me a chatbot is fucked, fuck off. I hate the future. Maybe you’re the fucking bot.
I mean yeah, I saw the Hank Green video from a couple days ago or something where he was on bluesky and ended up realizing he was talking to a disagree bot, and that’s got this air of awful dead internet dystopia to it. But to be accused of being one, myself? Fuck you.
This is why I wanna be a stay at home dad.
Hard to find a woman who will support you tbh… even harder than finding a man if you are gay.
Easiest is for a straight woman even then only like 10-20% of men can provide something like that…
as if this is a class issue…
hmmm
Men who don’t conform to traditional gender roles are at a higher risk for being called “ha gay”.
I think it was the old baseball player Thurmon Munson who said “I never feel more like a man than when I’m wearing a dress”.
The manliest thing a man can do is have the confidence and strength to dress and act however they feel like with absolute freedom.
Many men go about life worried about what people will think of them if they do basic stuff like give their son a hug, eat a salad, drive a car, go to the doctor, clean their butts or wear purple. That’s how men are being raised being bullied into submission out of the fear of being called gay. Who cares anyway?
Wrong.
The manliest thing a man can do is wrestle a bear, ride a tiger, domesticate a wolf, or eat an entire spoonful of cinnamon.
THEN I guess it’s whatever thing you said.
That tracks, traditional gender roles are overly restrictive and force people to deny their needs.
Men, nothing wrong with being masculine if you want, but if a woman demands you “man up” for her at the expense of your emotional needs, you’re better off single.
Yeah, it’s sick. No man should be expected to be able to provide for a small to large family alone, not in this capitalist society that is designed to grind you into nothing. They should be allowed to enjoy hobbies like cooking, art, and home making. They should be allowed to give and recieve affection. The normal gender roles we were taught, are trash. They are not meant for everyone but only some class of people that existed at one time so that even then were unique in the amount of wealth they all shared.
An evergreen bell hooks quote:
The first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If an individual is not successful in emotionally crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem.
For any men near the beginning of their journey to adopt of a more healthy masculinity, The Will To Change by bell hooks is an excellent read
patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem.
This isn’t exclusive to men, women do this too. Even many that say they want a “sensitive” guy don’t actually in my experience, they want a guy that can be empathetic to others (namely them) but still have no feelings of his own, just try to cry in front of one (especially for anything less than a death of someone close, or as I’ve been told before “yeah we don’t like it when guys cry for stupid reasons but if there’s something like your mom died sure. I want a sensitive guy not a pussy.”)
Call it the patriarchy all you want, but women certainly reinforce it too, IME even some that espouse hatred for it turn around and reinforce it in the same breath.
Jesus, that cuts. 🥹😶
If anyone’s interested in reading through it with others, we have a book club going for this book right now! It’s a fantastic read so far and we just started!
Yeah, but …hexbear? Ferreal? 🫣
Everyone involved in the book club is taking it seriously and we’ve had great discussions so far without any irony poisoning. You don’t need to be a commie or an anarchist to get a lot out of the experience, we just want more people who will earnestly engage with the work.
I might, in all honesty, and thank you. I’ll have to go find how thoroughly I’ve blocked that instance (TIL: my filters are not fully synced between devices), but I appreciate knowing this is out there, at the least.
?
I understand the hesitancy. Hexbear’s not for everyone. If you were only going to interact with a single corner of Hexbear and ignore the rest, this book club would be a good place to do so. It’ll be low on snark and full of people doing earnest discussion.
Man, it’s like the worst kind of beetlejuicing: we didn’t even use the actual name more than a couple times and there’s already chuds gagging on each other to win the race. 🙄🤢
I’m not sure what you mean
smartest liberal
Death to America
I think that’s a counterproductive response.
At first, I had to question why I was seeing a question like this, then I remembered where I was. But if I start talking trash about dbzer0 like this here, my shit’s finna get pinched.
1.) Yeah, but it’s hexbear.
2.) Use gloves.
The film nights are pretty good too.
I’m not suicidal! You’re suicidal!
