I have tried for 20 years to get into coding, and among adhd and having 10 million other projects going on, just could never get it beyond absolute basics and knowing some differences between languages.
Now it seems every tutorial I see is really just clicking around in a gui. Very little actual typing of code, which is the part I actually find cool and interesting.
So my question is, since everyone on lemmy is a programmer, what do you guys actually do? Is it copying and pasting tons of code? Is it fixing small bugs in Java for a website like “the drop down field isn’t loading properly on this form”?
I just dont get what “a full stack developer sufficient in sql and python” actually does. Also i dont know if that sentence even made sense!
Mostly what I do is have anxiety about not knowing what to do since no project ideas come to mind and then feeling guilty about not doing anything.
Doing more game dev helps, but my mindset of not doing something because better projects already exist definitely keeps me from programming a lot.
Hmm, I am programming as a hobby, but I tried getting into it several times without ‘getting’ it too. I then somehow found the free cs50x online course and got hooked and finished all exercises. What helped me were clear goals to work toward and the immediate evaluation of the exercises. I could not get any of this from books or websites alone. I especially loved the sql problem sets.
I then worked on my last submission for a long time, which was a work related application. It worked fine on android and linux and I was proud to submit it, but there was no way to compile the program to get it to work on ios (yeah we’ve got iphones at work…) without a mac.
So then I rebuild the entire app in JavaScript and made it into a multiplatform progressive web app (My main goals were to make it completely work offline and then sync to my server and to let it run on (almost) every device.). I learned a lot in this time, it still got bugs, and designing the ui is somewhat painful (though I love working with inkscape to make icons and pictures and stuff, css though…) but this year I was able to get a test run at work and it was really helpful so far.
Bye, bye maintaining our large, confusing, error riddled, ancient excel tables by hand staring at them for hours!
I still got lots of features I want to implement and bugs to fix. I am aware that my app won’t be up to industry standards (no access to some expensive equipment and rule books), but it is still helpful and it is a lot of fun to work on.
And what happend since I am familiar with python and js and such is, that I try to automate everything, even if it sometimes takes more time to write the scripts. With more and more practice I find more and more problems to solve, like I want to build a weight training tracking app, and I know there are many available, but why not?
You need to find some clear goals and get hooked, and yeah that is something that I struggle with too. (I want to get into playing piano, but I currently struggle to make it click too). Too many hobbies and too few time…
Product owners say, "We want to change the site so users see a list of all the other users on their team with access to this project "
Okay. Do some thinking. Going to need the backend to return that information to the front end. Decide what URL that should be under (api/v1/projects/users, maybe?).
Now we make the backend actually do that. Create a new file for this endpoint. Update the routes file so that url points to this file. Write the handler class.
Does this endpoint take any particular input? We know who the caller is for free from the framework. We only want to return info about one project or all projects? Make that decision. Update URL if needed.
Write the code to get the other users on the projects in question. Maybe that’s SQL, but might also be OEM (code from a framework that generates SQL based on objects). Decide what information we actually need. Package that up and send it back. The specifics depend on language and framework.
Write automated tests for this. Make sure it works for
- 401 not logged in
- 403 asking about a project I don’t have permission for
- 404 asking about a user with no projects, or a project that doesn’t exist
- someone with 1 project
- someone with 2 projects
- someone with 10000 projects
- also consider what happens for 0, 1, 2, 10000 users on the project.
Realize this needs to paginate. Go back and change the handler code to do that.
Realize due to some quirk of how permissions work, someone can be on the project twice. Talk with the team about if we should just decide that here, or try to fix the root problem. Probably the former.
Add deduplication code, then, and test cases.
Open this up for code review.
Start the front end work.
Make a dummy page first and update your API calling code to know about this new route, assuming you don’t have that auto magically set up somehow. Make sure it calls it and gets a response.
Realize that staff users technically have access to every project in the system. Ask product if that’s how they want that to behave. If no, figure out what you all want that to do instead.
Do a bunch of react work to make the page pretty, put the response in the right UI elements with links to the right place. Realize the response you’re sending back makes building the links annoying because you didn’t send some part of it, so you’d need to make another request to the backend for every link. That sucks. Update the backend to include the user’s team-id that is for some stupid reason still in the URL. Comment on code review.
And now I’m tired of writing.
Edit: I hit submit before I was done. Finished now.
You need an actual problem to solve that your hyper focus likes, then you’ll go hard I bet. ~ professional developer with ADHD of 17 years.
It helps to have a concrete problem to solve. If you just say I want to learn coding you’ll not go very far
Full stack python and SQL means python to handle user interface, data connectivity, interfacing with APIs, understanding/designing a database to perform the necessary data storage / retrieval in an optimal way for how your application works, creating all the logic, safe guards, etc.
Basically I have this thing I want to do, and it’s going to interact with a lot of data. Your tools are python and SQL and a small stack of money - make the thing that does it all
Full stack means all the parts, soup to nuts
Right now, I’m upgrading my Nushell plugin in Rust code while not being very familiar with Rust and its mechanisms. I’m using the build errors, cargo crate (libraries) documentation, auto completions/suggestions, existing own and cate/lib source code to find the correct methods and way to do data format transformations. I managed to make it compile again, so now I’ll test-run it. I “accidentally” extended what it can map as well, which is a positive side-effect.
It depends very much on the role I’m in, and what you’re asking in particular. As far as hands-on development work,
- No, I don’t copy tons of code
- I read and/or search and/or analyze and/or remember existing code, to understand what is happening, identify bugs, or embed and write solutions that make sense within the project, reuse existing mechanisms and approaches
- I develop and write solutions, sometimes in one iteration, sometimes through multiple iterations, when I have new findings during development or solution behavior or new questions raised
- When it’s web, it’s more writing, if it’s a Windows Forms app developed with Visual Studio, UI placement and layout is a UI process, but connecting it to and implementing it’s logic and behavior is still a coding task
- I love making use of efficient editor and IDE features like multi-cursor editing when they’re useful
- Overall, I think being in the UI is the smaller part of development
Professional development in general entails much more. I work with my customer and consider their workflows, needs, I discuss and question their requirements, I design solutions both in user workflow, UI, UX as well as in code architecture and implementation. For a long-running project, improving existing code is a large part of what I do when implementing new changes. Documenting what I find out or see and is not documented yet is another big part.
If you feel you never get it beyond absolute basics I encourage you to work on tools, utils, or projects that you use or care about. I wrote various utils for my own benefit and use, and do regular drive-by contributions to projects I find useful or interesting (mostly related to documentation or tech approachable to me).
Don’t just follow tutorials. Set a goal of something that works. Be it a clock, a calculator, a command line tool that let’s you read music file metadata, or starts or stops programs for you. Or whatever you feel might be reasonable to explore and achieve, whether with or without practical use.
Junior - code Mid - code and meetings Senior - meetings
Pointless meetings.
Pointless and harmful forced commuting to and from office.
Pointless agile ways of working.
Pointless managers.
Pointless eating expensive lunch.
Pointless learning of frameworks that gets replaced in a year.
Pointless forced team events.
true words. Unionize thought
I am a machine that turns nonsense requirements into nonsense code.
Hello, GPT.
Unfortunately too little coding and too much random busywork. Updating random documents, fixing small bugs, updating versions in like 4 higher projects to make sure my new feature actually shows up in the final software. But when coding, it’s indeed quite often just adding a random new button or something with all the backend logic as well. And the testing of course.
I’m currently burnt out because we spent months on end doing preparation work, creating all kinds of UML diagrams to prepare for a big rework, only to be put on a different project and do it again. Although I was probably already on my limit before that…
It all sounds a bit negative, but when we’re in the normal flow it’s still mostly just coding and debugging, two things that I do enjoy. Spending a whole week hunting down some obscure bug that only happens in certain conditions sounds like hell to some, but to me it’s like a murder mystery and I love that shit. With complex and large corporate systems there are so many suspects for a bug, it’s a real challenge to uncover the mystery and by the time you find it you’ve learnt a lot about some random part of the application.
I tend to write Java. Many people don’t like Java, and honestly it’s also not a fancy language. It isn’t Rust, Julia, or Haskell, languages that I find very interesting. But at the end of the day I’m not sure I’d pick any of them over Java for building a large application like this. Java is boring because it’s quite well designed for large enterprise work. It keeps people from doing too many flashy things that are understood by no-one. It just works ™. It’s fast enough, has great tooling with Maven, does everything pretty well, has lots of libraries to use, and almost everyone can write it.
Tutorials only explain the concepts, maybe takes you 10% there. The rest is is practical application and applying the methods. You might be able to copy and paste some code but I will bet my bottom dollar that there will be some nuances for your use case that you have to amend manually. Thinking about the logic and how everything connects to each other is often the part that takes the longest and the most challenging.
What I can say is that if you like problem solving, technology is a great drug to get your fix, it is endless.
I work at a mid-tier B2B tech company. I specialize in frontend but am otherwise a full-stack engineer.
My big project over the last two-ish weeks was building a demo environment for one of the company’s products. It involved:
- Updating some configurations in our backend to ensure the database can store the information for the demo sessions.
- Writing a class to represent these demo sessions, acting as an interface between the database and runtime environment.
- Building sets of endpoints so that our products’ frontend can interface with the server.
- Building a system on the frontend that regularly syncs with the backend on the state of the demo session and provides it to the UI.
- Building a pretty UI that shows the user the current state of the demo session and lets them update it.
- Writing unit tests to ensure every individual component of the system works as it’s expected to.
- Manually testing the system as a user to ensure it’s all working together as expected.
- Writing a summary of my work and submitting it for review by my coworkers, discussing and applying any feedback given.
- Deploying my work to production and confirming it’s all still working as expected.
- Praying to every God that there is no bullshit issue I missed somewhere and will have to take accountability for later.
Along the way, I got several other smaller tasks, like updating logic in one of our algorithms, adding internal tooling so that the customer service team can stop bugging engineering to fix things and just do it themselves, hypothesizing on the sources of random bugs and updating documentation. In between all that, I’ve got meetings to discuss random other bullshit.
Still lots of coding, but at this point in my career it’s more about knowing how my company’s systems work together and how to take an idea and turn it into usable software.
I think your last paragraph is crucial. Throughout my career in technology. I have met a lot of smart engineers. But understanding the business and the dynamics there of is often not considered by a lot of people. This I believe is also a scale and becomes more relevant the larger the organisation is.
I work with a 7-person (6 devs and a lead) on a 20-year-old financial reporting application. We either pull or receive data from about 7 different systems where folks record contracts, funding documents, purchase requests, purchase orders, invoices, bills, etc. and pull them all together to build reports and UIs where users can search across all the data, and have it unified in one place. That’s about 90% of our workload, anyway. More recently, we’ve adopted workload from a couple big legacy systems that got sunsetted, where we’re actually the data-entry point, feeding data out to the main billing system.
Day to day, I work on everything from PL/SQL (Oracle’s SQL variant for compiled stored procedures) where the majority of our business logic lives, to VB.NET where two different HTTP Web servers live, as well as a large automated testing suite for that database business layer, to TypeScript where most of our UI logic lives. Occasionally, I might dip into plain JavaScript/jQuery or ASPX to work on older features.
I also do open-source work in some of my hobby time, which is pretty much all C#.
There’s a big difference between hobby coding and corporate coding. I do the latter and work on large applications as part of a team. I spend a lot of my time
- Using debugging tools and probing at code to investigate and fix bugs
- Coming up with system architectures to achieve whatever feature we want to add
- Cleaning up my other teammates’ AI generated slop 😑 (fuck AI)
- Writing test suites for our code that guarantee everything works as expected
- Occasionally I write new features
- Juggling this with pointless meetings and a long ass commute that take up 60%+ of my work day
I got laid off before the AI got really and truly going at the company I was at. We had a mandate to have 90% of the code submitted to be covered by unit tests. How does the whole “vibe coding” crowd handle that aspect? Do they just ask the AI to create unit tests for the code it generates as well? I always heard a lot of complaints about unit testing but I quite enjoyed that part at times.
My last project is using machine learning to sort data for a company and the flow kinda goes like this:
- Use the advanced tab in the browser on the UI search pagr for the company to expose the API query for the data I want to have
- Write some shell script to programmatically call the API for the data I want.
- Realize that there’s actually a limit to how much data the API can return BUT the metadata says how much there is beyond the limit.
- Write some script to paginate (scrape over) all that data and save as a JSON file
- Realize my JSON is badly formatted and some queries are empty, so do some error checking and massage to make it work right.
- Create a python script to ingest the parts of the saved data I want and write it to a SQLite database. This takes ongoing refinement.
- Do some sql to count how many entries I got in the time period I was getting data for, and compare to a tool the company has to aggregate said data. It was close enough.
- Go learn about Jaccard similarity and locality sensitive hashing. Use this to write a script to deduplicate the database so I don’t have a zillion repeated entries. Also python, but it starts with some cursor stuff and sql.
- Do the actual project which is trying to get some reinforcement learning to label the data automagically. This means I also have to write some methods to get particular mixes of the data I’ve already collected. For example I want my mix to have 50 percent red balls, 20 percent green balls and 30 percent blue balls. How do you pick the right number of balls from the total set? It’s not hard but it takes some thinking.
- Wrap this thing up in a script that will do some load balancing on a machine with lots of gpus and CPUs so I don’t hog the entire server rack. Submit it and let it cook.
- Write it again so I can wrap options around it and optimize hyperparameters.
- Start working up the results to show improvement overall. If it’s better than what the company already has…
- Time to fire up the old git repo and make sure the commits are clean. Add readme and make files (bc I prefer to deploy with make) and put it in the hands of another engineer who will roll it out for that company.
Idk it’s not a super sophisticated problem but it has a lot of moving parts and you have to kind of tackle them in order. Mostly it’s “hey here’s an obstacle to the end goal, how do I fix it on my own in a smart way?”
Then do it.