Ukraine 2013-2014 - literally saved the country from being dismantled and absorbed by russia.
Do y’all not have any context dependent cues to start ranting about the RuZZian orcs or whatever the fuck? It must be unbearable to know you irl jfc
Anything’s possible when you make shit up
more like anything is possible when folks get together and push back in a concerted effort. that wall of fire was as real as it gets.
Ukraine 2013-14 was a fucking CIA backed color revolution, the current regime in Ukraine is an extremely transparent US puppet, Russia being a repressive shithole doesn’t change any of that or make our motives for orchestrating it any less evil
and you got your information from where exactly?
https://archive.org/details/why-and-how-the-usa-government-perpetrated-the-2014-ukraine-coup
https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/05/chronology-of-the-ukrainian-coup/
https://mronline.org/2022/07/06/anatomy-of-a-coup/
https://www.cato.org/commentary/washington-helped-trigger-ukraine-war
The involvement of US intelligence agencies and NGO’s in the 2014 coup is a verifiable fact, as is our long history of orchestrating similar coups and overthrowing democratically elected governments in support of our foreign policy. Same shit different decade.
it’s like “the best of russian propaganda narratives all in one place half the price double the length”. It’s a story easy to believe for those not in the know but it has little to do with actual events. This goose is up for gavage.
The reality was that the president Yanukovych (the one who eventually fled) broke away from the so-called Donetsk clan which he represented since the 90s and started hostile takeover of the entire economy including properties of oligarchs from different regional groups. He was assisted by russians who promised him a deal similar to the one they have with Lukaschenko in exchange of several tradeoffs that involved among other things russian military presence in Crimea, economically detrimental natural gas prices and gradual disarmement and dissolution of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. It was a Faustian bargain of sorts if you think about it.
So he started to consolidate power inch by inch until he started to leave out people who brought him to power back in the 90s and elevated him to prime minister during early 2000s, and then helped him rebuild his influence during the mid-to-late 2000s in favor of his new russian friends who sold him a bill of goods. So he initiated a change of Constitution to give himself more power and get shit done. At the same time he attempted to deal with European Union to broker favorable trade deals to appease the parliament and parliamentary opposition but mainly to fuel his family’s business entities.
At some point in late 2013 russians saw through the scheme and threatened a military coup (as military and national security services were filled with their assets and agents of influence) that lead to Yanukovych doing 180 towards russia but it caused massive protests across the country that were initially ignored by the government altogether. Those protests had USAID NGO presence but it was ineffective clownshow with little substance mostly done for cameras. They weren’t involved in decision making of anything and their presence remained media-centric throughout the latter stages of the protest.
The initial wave started to simmer down by late November but due to police violently attacking students at the Independence Square in the middle of the night it snowballed into a giant protest later known as Euromaidan.
The united parliamentary opposition backed by disgruntled business elites (future president Petro Poroschenko was one of them actually) leveraged the protests and provided it with infrastructure and resourcesall while trying to reason with Yanukovych behind closed doors who by then was still somewhat in control of police and military but russians insisted on more violent response to quell the protests and potentially kickstart a civil war that would be a nice opportunity for them to swoop in and take over amidst chaos.
While Yanukovych, business elites and the parliamentary opposition negotiated - it was a stalemate on the streets that lasted until January 16 when the parliament majority voted the Dictatorship Laws that outlawed any form of civil disobedience. That caused another escalation of protests and massive surge in police violence - the infamous wall of fire at Hruschevsky Street happened right after that. This led to another attempt to find compromise among business elites, parliamentary opposition and the president - for a while it seemed like an agreement was reached only for the aforementioned violent response taking place February 18-20. That was supposed to be a start of civil war but further escalation was avoided when the Agreement on the Settlement of the Political Crisis was finally signed after a bloody fiery siege of Independence Square. The agreement intended to restore previous version of Constitution switching from Presidentially-parliamental republic back to parliamentary-presidential republic and doing Presidential elections to clear the air.
However, Yanukovych fled immediately after that more or less exposing himself as decommissioned russian asset. He left the parliament to pick up the pieces and maintain the continuity of governance. Head of parliament became acting President, the new elections were scheduled for late May and the new Cabinet of Ministers was elected to clean up the mess in the meantime.
Yanukovych didn’t have to flee - he just brokered a deal to make Maidan go away and he could weather the election cycle but this agreement turned out to be a diversion for russian Plan B - also known as russian Spring that kicked off a week later with strange things happening in Crimea. russians needed to spark a civil war to destabilize the situation, discredit the government and ease their way in by pretending to restore order. A day later Yanukovych did a press conference during which he asked russia for military intervention because “things got out of hand” even though he just signed a solution to all his problems and could’ve walked relatively scott free. But he did what he was told to - and he did that while crushing a pencil in his hands under obvious duress. Dude decided to outplay the devil, lost everything and became his bitch.
Meanwhile in Crimea - unmarked russian military started the takeover on Feb 27th that culminated with the takeover of the Crimean parliament building and mock referendum later in March that had very timid reaction from the international community. And then a wave of state institution takeovers attempts across Donetsk, Luhansk, Kharkiv, Dnipro and Odessa by armed people who claimed to be separatists but later were identified as russian nationals. This situation kicked off what was initially called the Anti-Terrorist Operation in Donbas. Kharkiv takeover ended with police storming the building and arresting the perpetrators, Odessa takeover ended in horrible tragedy when the Trade Union House burned down in early May 2014.
The military skirmishes in Donbas started to escalate further during June while international community was deeply concerned and worried. The dominant narrative back then was that this whole thing was deeply ambiguous and it is unclear who to blame. Except every single decision maker on the “separatist” side was oddly from russia with direct connection to the military or secret service but who cares about that. Then in July russians shot down MH17 and then finally led to some reaction and kicked off the first round of sanctions against russia. Then the Ilovaisk siege happened the aftermath of which led to what eventually became Minsk Protocol which was a russian attempt to appease international community and avoid harsher economic sanctions and possible military help to Ukraine and also dig in on Donbas and continue their charade.
There’s more but that’s the gist of it.
A dozen paragraphs of unsubstantiated bullshit lol, try harder fed
That wasn’t voting, you dipshit, they revolted and overthrew the government.
If you think the defacto Russian-appointed ruler fleeing for his life is a normal election, then you have to be the biggest idiot I’ve met.
it is way more complicated than that but it is not the place to argue about that. the gist of it is that the continuity of government remained intact. the president fled, the parliament remained and took over with the head of parliament being the acting president until proper elections, the ministers got reappointed and got back to work and after things settled the elections took place and they were internationally recognized as democratic.
It’s not more complicated than that, it’s literally an example of the meme I posted. what do you think a revolt is, besides civil disobedience?
it is more complicated because this conversation leaves out a ton of historical context in favor of oversimplified definitions.
Like. Why do people trust judges in America? I grew up where our local judges were financed by the mob with bullshit like owning the juvenile detention centers. Where kids were sent to keep it profitable for the owners. Who some were the very judges throwing kids away for nothing.
Judges are not going to save us. At this point replace them with Ai judges. I’m sure they’ll do a better job.
Their hrududus are scary. We must be scarier!
I GET THIS
Yes this is a message I’m fully behind
Serious question: has violence ever made the country better? Could you please list a few historical examples?
I am impressed by the pacifist responses on Lemmy. I assume country means the USA.
Labor strikes have led to violence. Among the consolations were the eight hour work day for some and an end to some child labor.
The Kansas-Nebraska Act sparked Bleeding Kansas which contributed to the Civil War. The result of the violence was a change in labor relations for slaves. Owners had to get more creative at creating an underclass.
Unironically yes. The American civil war was fought over whether slavery should be permitted. Slavery is objectively bad, thus fighting to get rid of it made the country better.
Not to mention the revolutionary war, civil rights movement, etc. It doesn’t take much US history knowledge to know this.
you’re white as fuck and straight as an arrow, aren’t you? nobody who wasn’t would ever seriously ask that question.
Hey, I am white as duck, but my shape is more of a boomerang…
stonewall, american civil war, anytime someone throws a brick at a cop car
Are you being obtuse or are you really just that fucking stupid?
You voted for a genocider. I love people like you IRL. They can afford to be very nice by voting to externalize their country’s violence. You were ready to throw foreigners under the bus, you didn’t care your party of choice were supporting bombing of civilians, well, as an European, I’ll campaign not to allow refugees from the US. Enjoy your own medicine, scum
Tanky cunts fuck off.
Your problem is that you’re too brainwashed into inherent suppremacism to even realize your very existence is a net negative in overall human happiness. Piece of shit
You fuck off scum. You’re a snitchy bitch who choosed to collaborate with your oppressive country and throw foreigners under the bus. Trump is treating you the way you guys threated the rest of the world.
Maybe if you idiots had clearly signaled genocide was a red line you might not have lost to a racist mafioso. Nobody loves civilians bomber.
Now go get some gas and some matches
Tanky cunts fuck off.
Yeah, now that i think about it, i can name a few examples too, including the violent removal of colonial administrations around the world. I don’t know why i didn’t think of that when i wrote my above comment.
The battle of Blair mountain, John Brown, hell, the Black Panthers. Peace is good, but without the threat of violence it falls easily.
Historically illiterate and cowardly
Brb, re-painting the lines on the stroad near my house to add a bike lane.
Well, after I rent a pavement grinder to fix the damn sidewalks.
Install a speed bump for additional safety https://www.clevescene.com/news/urbanist-guerillas-fed-up-neighbors-install-speed-bump-on-street-where-five-year-old-was-struck-and-killed-38879832
When enforcing constitutional laws becomes violently opposed, society is worse off. I don’t see what the point is personally other than being arrested for felonies and losing your right to vote and own guns. So stupid.
We still have midterms, if people go e then reason we will not have it. Be careful because I put they will put agitators inside to push their narrative.
AI or good old fashioned illiteracy? You be the judge!
Based on the voter turnout in the last US Federal election, I would say you COULD have made the system better (or at least not immeasurably worse) by voting.
Folks just chose not to.
It wouldn’t have made the system better. It would have delayed people from making the system worse.
Which means more time to make it better. I would rather have things fall apart in pieces instead of collapsing as a whole
People said this in 2020 as well, that we should vote for Biden and organize, and then people just didn’t organize.
The problem with the slow collapse is that it frustrates people, and pushes them to vote for the alternative.
that is a nonsense statement that doesn’t fucking mean anything.
So you’re telling me you’d rather your entire house fall to dust, than for parts of your house to fall apart over time so you have time to build it up better? That’s a really weird take.
You’re ignoring the part where building it up better cannot be and never has been accomplished by voting
Reformism is a thing, but of course it loses all credibility when the only longterm vision it’s serving is ”slowing collapse somewhat”.
As an outsider, it’s fascinating how mainstream US politics today largely divides into Trumpian accelerationism and Dick Cheney allies that are appalled that a lot of other people can’t envision victory by rallying behind the corporate sponsored candidate of the Dick Cheney party, which is also promising to destroy the world, albeit in a slower and more controlled way that is less disruptive to big business. Fuck anyone that has different ideas, it’s all about ”winning” here and now, even if it’s not really winning. And there’s always only the here and now, because there’s always a new Trump waiting around the next corner. Just like in most other countries.
Both of those ”sides” – internationally – have killed reformism as a viable political project, neither of them support gradual alignment of wealth and power with a popular majority.
The last chance to make it better was the 2020 primary. That definitely could have been a fulcrum if Democratic voters weren’t such idiots.
The primary on which the Democratic party deliberately, repeatedly, and flagrantly puts its whole arm on the scale? That primary?
I stg they could roll out Hitler and Mega Hitler and y’all would get pissy at non voters like they’re the idiots.
I can be pissed at the Democratic establishment for manipulating voters and at voters for allowing themselves to be manipulated at the same time. I’m just talented like that.
That’s what y’all always say but only bring it out after you’ve thrown a tantrum at non voters like the Democratic party is owed votes. You can’t be mad at democrats for rigging shit and at the voters for recognizing it, that’s just some cop out y’all been trained to give.
Y’all ain’t slick.
Who the fuck do you think I am? You’re presuming an awful lot, and nowhere close to the mark. Also, if you read what I just said, I’m not pissed at voters for recognizing the lies, I’m pissed at them for falling for the lies. Fuck off until you learn some reading comprehension skills.
The force of gravity has been already shown to take rights for us, when applied to the necks of the oligarchy.
Better check what those “minor updates” did to the voting machines.
Whether or not you believe the election was stolen, the simple fact that something like that is able to happen is unnfuckenbelievable. I’ve worked on projects that don’t have any impact irl where this would be impossible. It truly boggles the mind how exposed US elections are to corruption, without even mentioning the word gerrymander.
They need to get themselves an AEC.
Bro it’s all a ruse whether it’s a card or machine or in person vote u think powers that be will allow the voters to disrupt them with a suprised candidate lol cmon bro
said everyone sane, but not knowing how
I’ve read the declassified sabotage guides but people still have things to lose before they have nothing to lose. I got no squad.
I knew there was a reason I never got permanently identifiable tattoos like everyone else in my age group and kept my hair and beard long so I can change my appearance with a pair of scissors and a razor in just a few minutes.
Now is the time for performative action. Take a video of you standing a hundred metres away from ICE agents dragging naked children off to the camps, but like do a funny dance or something so they know you’re mocking them. The only way to defeat fascism is by politely teasing them.
The people who actually defeated fascism last time would be rolling in their graves if they could hear that assessment
I know right, probably all like “ughh why didn’t we think of that, what a waste of all that blood”
Rabbits with theor nonviolent eating of grass, and running away… Not exactly an imposing threat.
Lefties already llive like rabbits.
I think you might have Watership Down Syndrome.
Except the psychotic Portland rioters who are finally now being arrested, and the Portland PD will now be investigated by the DoJ (as per today’s news) for allowing violent antifa psychos to continue.
when your nazi kiddie-diddling president is dead and gone, we’re still gonna be here, fash.