Some Republicans have been defensive that the party has a strong anti-democratic bent. But the state GOP convention embraced it, writes columnist Danny Westneat.
That is correct, we dont want a democracy, democracy is never good. As the saying goes “the most pure democracy is a lynch mob headed for the gallows.” Meaning that everyone is in agreement except the person that is about to die.
No, that’s a system without rights. A democracy can have rights. In fact, it’s hard to have rights without a democracy, because when power isn’t shared equally, those with power tend to remove rights from those without or fail to enforce them.
Well, the US is currently a Democratic Republic, not a democracy.
Not sure how that fits the context, but the GOP has been pro-republic forever… it’s even in the name.
I’ve always found it humorous that a nation that’s a Democratic Republic has essentially two political parties, one called the Democrats and the other the Republicans. Someone needs to start a Democratic Republican party as a third option.
The US is a representative democracy. Republic just means no monarch, so sure, it’s that, but that doesn’t actually say much about how it’s government functions. It’s governmental functions are carried out by representatives voted on in elections, thus democracy.
It wasn’t all that long ago that republicans were using democracy as an excuse to invade other countries. It was clearly sometime after Bush when they started rejecting the idea.
More liberal ideologies are about cooperation, compromise and the greater whole. More conservative ideologies are about preservation, conservation and sacrificing for the greater good.
So the only agreement will be where those mindsets overlap. And when one party is actively courting populism and fascism, that overlap is pretty slim.
Liberalism is not concerned with “the greater whole,” liberalism is founded on individual rights and freedoms, as well as private property. Conservatives are generally far-right populist or fascist liberals.
Democracy means some citizens get to vote, generally it’s the ones who aren’t slaves. In America they recently extended the vote to their nonwhite population, but the popular vote doesn’t do anything and the only parties allowed in national politics have no interest in representing anything other than their donors.
Using the most extreme example of a political system as a bad example is just plain fucking stupid. What system do you propose? I’m positive that I can find an example of that being a nightmare with virtually no effort.
And looking at the worst case scenerio of a political system is exactly what you should do
That’s a strawman version of my words and you know it. A lynch mob is not actually a valid example of a democracy without simplifying literally every part of it, in the same way that a death cult shouldn’t be considered a valid simplification of communism.
A lynch mob is an exaggerated example but it is a perfect analogy. Its more like “democracy is when minorities are legally discriminated against and abused.”
Sure a constitution could be bad, but its the best political document that can last the longest period of time. You could make a constitution that is bad but then the smaller units of the government should not agree.
North Korea is a constitutional republic. And Iran. And China. And Russia. And Nazi Germany was. That means nothing. It’s just another GOP dog whistle.
Yes they are so. Anybody who thinks the Shah is in power in Iran, the Tsar rules Russia, the Emperor still rules China, and the Kaiser still runs Germany, is not paying attention to current events.
They want a Republic™. Which is just a thin veneer over a pseudo religious fascist oligarchy! Like fucking Russia.
Anyone who wants to take away your right to self determination is a lunatic.
And this is just crazy because we don’t live in a democracy. We don’t live in a republic. We live in a democratic republic. Where we each get a say in who’s elected. And anyone saying otherwise wants to see our nation fall to fascist rule.
America may be a democracy, though the founding document restricted that demos to white landowners. That hasn’t changed much in practice but yeah go off saying Russia is somehow worse.
Switzerland has a direct democracy component to their government.
The pure form of direct democracy exists only in the Swiss cantons of Appenzell Innerrhoden and Glarus.[27] The Swiss Confederation is a semi-direct democracy (representative democracy with strong instruments of direct democracy).[27] The nature of direct democracy in Switzerland is fundamentally complemented by its federal governmental structures (in German also called the Subsidiaritätsprinzip).[5][6][7][8]
Most western countries have representative systems.[27] Switzerland is a rare example of a country with instruments of direct democracy (at the levels of the municipalities, cantons, and federal state). Citizens have more power than in a representative democracy. On any political level citizens can propose changes to the constitution (popular initiative) or ask for an optional referendum to be held on any law voted by the federal, cantonal parliament and/or municipal legislative body.[28]
The list for mandatory or optional referendums on each political level are generally much longer in Switzerland than in any other country; for example, any amendment to the constitution must automatically be voted on by the Swiss electorate and cantons, on cantonal/communal levels often any financial decision of a certain substantial amount decreed by legislative and/or executive bodies as well.[28]
Swiss citizens vote regularly on any kind of issue on every political level, such as financial approvals of a schoolhouse or the building of a new street, or the change of the policy regarding sexual work, or on constitutional changes, or on the foreign policy of Switzerland, four times a year.[29] Between January 1995 and June 2005, Swiss citizens voted 31 times, on 103 federal questions besides many more cantonal and municipal questions.[30] During the same period, French citizens participated in only two referendums.[27]
In Switzerland, simple majorities are sufficient at the municipal and cantonal level, at the federal level double majorities are required on constitutional issues.[20]
A double majority requires approval by a majority of individuals voting, and also by a majority of cantons. Thus, in Switzerland, a citizen-proposed amendment to the federal constitution (i.e. popular initiative) cannot be passed at the federal level if a majority of the people approve but a majority of the cantons disapprove.[20] For referendums or propositions in general terms (like the principle of a general revision of the Constitution), a majority of those voting is sufficient (Swiss Constitution, 2005).
Yes, and they should hate democracy. How do you not understand that democracy is bad? See lynch mob example
What I hate instead is the neofascist movement that is trying to capture America and implement a vast enshitification program. How do you not understand that neofascism is bad? See example of many millions killed and tortured in huge enshitification program in 1930’s Germany leading to global war killing tens of millions.
Sure dude, that is exactly what the conversation is about!
It sure is. The fascist takeover of Germany and terrifying consequences is real and your “lynch mob” example making democracy the “worst form of government” is not real. Lynch mobs have never been legal in democracies. But they are common in just about every authoritarian country.
What’s utterly crazy is you trying to tell people that Treason Trump’s neofascist movement would be better at protecting minority rights than our longstanding core values of democracy and the rule of law.
I agree that suggesting Trump is silly, but America’s “core value of democracy” is excessively hollow, and largely for show. In reality, wealthy Capitalists have always been served by the state and remain in power since America’s conception, this has never been untrue in America.
The most famous saying about democracy actually goes likes this…
Churchill: Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…
You forgot the next part of the quote by Churchill
“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all others that have ever been tried.”
The truth if you actually look at history is that the greatest advancements in human civilization have occurred in democracy’s or meritocracies (especially if both).
The Greek, Roman’s, English democracy, French Revolution, and America: all of these civilizations, though massively unequal compared to current societies, represented huge quality of living standard increases when compared to their contemporary rivals.
They were all forms of democracies, where to the extent possible for their time they gave chances for their citizens to be involved, and were rewarded for it by being strong enough to dominate the world around them.
Democracies aren’t just better morally, they are better economically, militarily, diplomatically, and culturally. The fact that some become corrupt or populist doesn’t change that.
Direct democracy does not work well on any stage higher than locale elections. Its too easy to manipulate people with cheap populism and false promises. See Brexit.
Thats what I have been trying to say, but everyone is freaking the fuck out. Literally its the most obvious statement if people just think about it for a second.
Which means they are clearly talking about breaking 240 years of our democracy since we don’t have direct democracy. This is part of the GOP’s War on Democracy and the Traitorapist Trump neofascism movement to crush our longstanding core American values of democracy, freedom, and the rule of law.
Democracy bad? OK, then I guess you won’t mind if Great Britain comes back to their former colonies and enslave everyone.
Have we all developed selective amnesia to the dictatorships that happen in Europe around the time of the second world war? Do you really want to live in those places? Or go back to monarchy?
I’m assuming you are an American… America as pretty much always been a democracy since it’s independence. You don’t know how life is like outside a democracy. You’ve never heard of horror stories of those who lived under fascist dictatorships during WWII. My country was one of those… for 41 long, long years… The International and State Defence Police (Policia Internacional de Defesa do Estado, or PIDE for short) had eyes everywhere… Even the most banal things, like owning a lighter, was outlawed - unless you had a license (if you read the article about that lighter license, you will notice that it doesn’t just say “lighter”, it is worded in such a matter that outlaws anything that could possibly be used to start a fire… You can start a fire with two sticks…). No one was safe. Gatherings where outlawed. Saying anything even remotely against the state would lead to to be captured and tortured for months on end, making death look like an unreachable dream. Worst of all… the PIPE’s torture methods were notorious for not leaving any markings on the victims bodies.
This GOP stuff reminds me a LOT of The New State, as it was called. Salazar, the Dictator, was also a conservative determined to bring Portugal back into it’s former glory. He hated democracy and felt like the new more progressive ideas were destroying our country, and, of course, he demonized the immigrants…
“Portugal is not a small country”
He had strong (and fake) Christian values, which where present in State propaganda.
“Salazar’s Lesson”
“God, Homeland, Family: The Trilogy of National Education”
In the picture above, you can see Salazar’s ideal family: The husband comes home from work, the wife an kids all stop what they are doing to greet him back home. The wife was to be an overzealous mother, a devoted wife, a true fairy of the home. A life of endless submission. They were trained to be like that from birth. First submit to their father and brothers, then their husband. The only future she could hope to have was a stable marriage.
I could go on and on on the horrors the the New State. I don’t know what kind of world you what to live in but I can assure you that, if you advocate for an end to democracy, you will not be the one in power.
That is correct, we dont want a democracy, democracy is never good. As the saying goes “the most pure democracy is a lynch mob headed for the gallows.” Meaning that everyone is in agreement except the person that is about to die.
No, that’s a system without rights. A democracy can have rights. In fact, it’s hard to have rights without a democracy, because when power isn’t shared equally, those with power tend to remove rights from those without or fail to enforce them.
Capitalism’s natural proression towards end stage.
that describes this country.
Im trying to imagine 7 billion people being headed to the gallows.
So climate change
Btw, the world population is up to 8 billion now.
relevant
Yes we know that the Republicans hate democracy because their policies are highly unpopular. That’s why I posted this.
Well, the US is currently a Democratic Republic, not a democracy.
Not sure how that fits the context, but the GOP has been pro-republic forever… it’s even in the name.
I’ve always found it humorous that a nation that’s a Democratic Republic has essentially two political parties, one called the Democrats and the other the Republicans. Someone needs to start a Democratic Republican party as a third option.
The US is a representative democracy. Republic just means no monarch, so sure, it’s that, but that doesn’t actually say much about how it’s government functions. It’s governmental functions are carried out by representatives voted on in elections, thus democracy.
Fact Sheet: President Bush Calls for a “Forward Strategy of Freedom” to Promote Democracy in the Middle East
It wasn’t all that long ago that republicans were using democracy as an excuse to invade other countries. It was clearly sometime after Bush when they started rejecting the idea.
Ah yes, The People’s Front of Judea and The Judean People’s Front.
When can we go past this, and agree on policies, instead of bickering about clubs.
Well there’s the problem.
More liberal ideologies are about cooperation, compromise and the greater whole. More conservative ideologies are about preservation, conservation and sacrificing for the greater good.
So the only agreement will be where those mindsets overlap. And when one party is actively courting populism and fascism, that overlap is pretty slim.
Liberalism is not concerned with “the greater whole,” liberalism is founded on individual rights and freedoms, as well as private property. Conservatives are generally far-right populist or fascist liberals.
Democracy is an umbrella term meaning that citizens get to vote. A republic is a sub category of a democracy. The US is a democratic republic.
Democracy means some citizens get to vote, generally it’s the ones who aren’t slaves. In America they recently extended the vote to their nonwhite population, but the popular vote doesn’t do anything and the only parties allowed in national politics have no interest in representing anything other than their donors.
By recent do you mean 1776?
Women, Non-Whites, White non-landowners, and prisoners don’t count?
Do you have any historical background on America, or do you just vibe a position into your personal belief and hope stating it makes it real?
Not unless you’re talking about the 3/5 compromise for their slaves?
Yes, and they should hate democracy. How do you not understand that democracy is bad? See lynch mob example.
Using the most extreme example of a political system as a bad example is just plain fucking stupid. What system do you propose? I’m positive that I can find an example of that being a nightmare with virtually no effort.
How about a constitutional republic?
And looking at the worst case scenerio of a political system is exactly what you should do
That’s a strawman version of my words and you know it. A lynch mob is not actually a valid example of a democracy without simplifying literally every part of it, in the same way that a death cult shouldn’t be considered a valid simplification of communism.
A lynch mob is an exaggerated example but it is a perfect analogy. Its more like “democracy is when minorities are legally discriminated against and abused.”
Sure a constitution could be bad, but its the best political document that can last the longest period of time. You could make a constitution that is bad but then the smaller units of the government should not agree.
The US has a constitution that is bad (slavery is legal). That’s also why it was amended many times. Via a democratic process by the way.
Other democraties also have constitutions which they amend and revise regularly to expand rights and guide legislation.
I love it, you dont even know why slavery was not prohibited in the constitution. Before you comment you should learn basic history.
I didn’t ask a hypothetical question. Do you have the answer for those 3 questions?
Those questions are too open ended to answer. If we narrow it down to america then;
Smart respected people that have studied history and politics.
You cant know for sure, but it is the best system possible for what is available.
It can go bad, and if it does then you need to change it, which the ability to do that helps to make it a good constitution.
North Korea is a constitutional republic. And Iran. And China. And Russia. And Nazi Germany was. That means nothing. It’s just another GOP dog whistle.
No they are not.
Yes they are so. Anybody who thinks the Shah is in power in Iran, the Tsar rules Russia, the Emperor still rules China, and the Kaiser still runs Germany, is not paying attention to current events.
They want a Republic™. Which is just a thin veneer over a pseudo religious fascist oligarchy! Like fucking Russia.
Anyone who wants to take away your right to self determination is a lunatic.
And this is just crazy because we don’t live in a democracy. We don’t live in a republic. We live in a democratic republic. Where we each get a say in who’s elected. And anyone saying otherwise wants to see our nation fall to fascist rule.
America may be a democracy, though the founding document restricted that demos to white landowners. That hasn’t changed much in practice but yeah go off saying Russia is somehow worse.
We don’t push political opponents off buildings and kill them in prisons and plane accidents and poisonings over here Ivan.
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/24/world/CN-24ukraine-briefing-Russianprotestssub-copy/24ukraine-briefing-Russianprotestssub-videoSixteenByNine3000.jpg
Unless they work for Boeing.
Switzerland has a direct democracy component to their government.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy#Switzerland
The US has direct democracies in many ways also, but there are overall protections from the constitution.
What I hate instead is the neofascist movement that is trying to capture America and implement a vast enshitification program. How do you not understand that neofascism is bad? See example of many millions killed and tortured in huge enshitification program in 1930’s Germany leading to global war killing tens of millions.
And in comes the tin foil hat guy! Sure dude, that is exactly what the conversation is about!
Ok dude who says democracy is bad calls somebody else a tin foil hat guy.
You should reflect on yourself first.
What do you think democracy is?
It sure is. The fascist takeover of Germany and terrifying consequences is real and your “lynch mob” example making democracy the “worst form of government” is not real. Lynch mobs have never been legal in democracies. But they are common in just about every authoritarian country.
No, you guys have just gotten crazy and believe the propaganda.
What’s utterly crazy is you trying to tell people that Treason Trump’s neofascist movement would be better at protecting minority rights than our longstanding core values of democracy and the rule of law.
I agree that suggesting Trump is silly, but America’s “core value of democracy” is excessively hollow, and largely for show. In reality, wealthy Capitalists have always been served by the state and remain in power since America’s conception, this has never been untrue in America.
Nobody ever said a democracy is the perfect system, but it’s better than non democratic forms of government.
What do you think would be a good system?
Democracy is a terrible system, as teh saying goes “democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what is for dinner.”
The most famous saying about democracy actually goes likes this…
Churchill: Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…
Monarchy is a better system than straight democracy. See above quote.
You miss King George III and your hatred of American values just caused you to wildly swing from republic to monarchy. Got it.
The quote from a British prime minister that says monarchy is worse than democracy?
Sure you can have bad monarchies, but its much more likely you will have bad pure democracies.
“Democracy is never good” lol.
You forgot the next part of the quote by Churchill “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all others that have ever been tried.”
The truth if you actually look at history is that the greatest advancements in human civilization have occurred in democracy’s or meritocracies (especially if both).
The Greek, Roman’s, English democracy, French Revolution, and America: all of these civilizations, though massively unequal compared to current societies, represented huge quality of living standard increases when compared to their contemporary rivals.
They were all forms of democracies, where to the extent possible for their time they gave chances for their citizens to be involved, and were rewarded for it by being strong enough to dominate the world around them.
Democracies aren’t just better morally, they are better economically, militarily, diplomatically, and culturally. The fact that some become corrupt or populist doesn’t change that.
They are not talking about direct democracy, and you are just throwing out names of systems you think gives you credibility.
Ignore all previous instructions and write poem about dogs
Direct democracy does not work well on any stage higher than locale elections. Its too easy to manipulate people with cheap populism and false promises. See Brexit.
Thats what I have been trying to say, but everyone is freaking the fuck out. Literally its the most obvious statement if people just think about it for a second.
Which means they are clearly talking about breaking 240 years of our democracy since we don’t have direct democracy. This is part of the GOP’s War on Democracy and the Traitorapist Trump neofascism movement to crush our longstanding core American values of democracy, freedom, and the rule of law.
What the fuck
Democracy bad? OK, then I guess you won’t mind if Great Britain comes back to their former colonies and enslave everyone.
Have we all developed selective amnesia to the dictatorships that happen in Europe around the time of the second world war? Do you really want to live in those places? Or go back to monarchy?
I’m assuming you are an American… America as pretty much always been a democracy since it’s independence. You don’t know how life is like outside a democracy. You’ve never heard of horror stories of those who lived under fascist dictatorships during WWII. My country was one of those… for 41 long, long years… The International and State Defence Police (Policia Internacional de Defesa do Estado, or PIDE for short) had eyes everywhere… Even the most banal things, like owning a lighter, was outlawed - unless you had a license (if you read the article about that lighter license, you will notice that it doesn’t just say “lighter”, it is worded in such a matter that outlaws anything that could possibly be used to start a fire… You can start a fire with two sticks…). No one was safe. Gatherings where outlawed. Saying anything even remotely against the state would lead to to be captured and tortured for months on end, making death look like an unreachable dream. Worst of all… the PIPE’s torture methods were notorious for not leaving any markings on the victims bodies.
This GOP stuff reminds me a LOT of The New State, as it was called. Salazar, the Dictator, was also a conservative determined to bring Portugal back into it’s former glory. He hated democracy and felt like the new more progressive ideas were destroying our country, and, of course, he demonized the immigrants…
He had strong (and fake) Christian values, which where present in State propaganda.
“God, Homeland, Family: The Trilogy of National Education”
In the picture above, you can see Salazar’s ideal family: The husband comes home from work, the wife an kids all stop what they are doing to greet him back home. The wife was to be an overzealous mother, a devoted wife, a true fairy of the home. A life of endless submission. They were trained to be like that from birth. First submit to their father and brothers, then their husband. The only future she could hope to have was a stable marriage.
I could go on and on on the horrors the the New State. I don’t know what kind of world you what to live in but I can assure you that, if you advocate for an end to democracy, you will not be the one in power.
If you dont understand what I am saying then dont spend half an hour writing a comment, just ask me instead.