Feddit.org announced today that they are changing their rules to match German law despite their server not being hosted in Germany.
Feddit.org now bans:
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The sentence “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”
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Comparing Israel to the Nazis
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Calls to end Zionism
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Calling for the dissolution of Israel
And much more. The full original post can be found here, or
Click here for full text of original post:
Hi.
In the past few days, discontent regarding mod decisions in this community has been brewing, particularly when it comes to comments on Palestine, Israel, and Israeli politics and actions. There are also misunderstandings regarding mod intention and German law. We hope to clear that up with this post.
While the servers of feddit.org are in Austria, most of the mods of this community as well as admins of this server live in Germany. Speaking of, our server admins have also posted a write-up on the same topic.
And with that, let’s go:
In Germany, antisemitism is specifically sanctioned in German criminal law, both for speech and as a motivation for other criminal behavior. In addition, Germany seeks to protect the Jewish state of Israel (the so-called “Reason of State” introduced in 2008) and thus verges toward protecting Zionism as well. Certain criticism of Israel/Israelis is also categorized as “Israel-related antisemitism”.
Since criminal law is involved, enforcement can mean things like police raids and device confiscations. After such police action, it does not really matter if it was appropriate or if cases are dropped or never charged: The damage is done. All told, it’s not that fun.
There is also no point in engaging in discussions about the veracity of statements that could get us into legal trouble. In addition, we believe that you can express most opinions without breaking rules.
If your comment contains the following, it will be removed from this community:
- Calling for the dissolution of Israel, or calling for a one-state solution without specifying equal rights for all people; Jewish in particular.
- Calling for a destruction, annihilation, an end of all Zionism or the like.
- Equating Israeli actions and (historical) Nazism.
- The slogan “from the river…”
- Endorsement of or justifications for Hamas or Hezbollah, or slogans or graphics positively referring to these organizations. These are considered terrorist organizations in Germany.
- … and obviously: Any of the common antisemitic tropes or calls to violence against Jews or Israelis
Comments will not be removed for the following:
- Denouncing genocide.
- Denouncing Israeli war crimes.
- Criticizing Zionism as an ideology or political movement.
- Referring to the current Israeli government as “criminal,” “expansionist,” or “far-right”.
If your comment is removed nonetheless, these are not the reason. I’d also like to stress that this community was never a free-speech-absolutist zone: It is a (usually lightly) moderated community. There may also be times when bans go too far. In such cases, please DM the @[email protected] account (which all mods have access to).
To help you understand why, I'll leave an assortment of sources here (translations via DeepL).
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Berlin in mid-May [2024] around 6 o’clock in the morning. A loud, continuous “banging” against the apartment door wakes student Alina T. from her sleep. […] When her husband opens the door, several LKA officers, two employees of the district office and the SEK “storm” past him into the apartment. Puzzled, he looks at the search warrant. […] The background to this was a Facebook entry in the student’s profile: "From the river […]
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In November 2023, the Federal Ministry of the Interior and for Home Affairs also issued a prohibition order against Hamas.[60] According to the order, “the slogan ‘From the River to the Sea’ (in German or other languages)” is a distinguishing mark of Hamas[61]. […] the current legal situation [regarding “Denial of Israel’s right to exist”] is - contrary to what the statements of the Federal Ministry of Justice suggest[63] - anything but clear. Whether incitements to eliminate the State of Israel are prosecuted depends on the respective legal opinion and the prosecution will of the respective public prosecutor’s office.
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Press release from the previous government:
In this context, Section 111 StGB, which covers public incitement to commit crimes, may also be relevant. Incitement to extinguish Israel’s existence by force may be punishable under this provision. The same applies to calls to publicly display the Hamas flag. If Hamas attacks are publicly cheered and celebrated, this may also be punishable. This means that people who cheer on Hamas’s actions or publicly express their sympathy with the attacks may constitute the criminal offence of “approval of criminal acts” under Section 140 of the German Criminal Code (StGB).
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In connection with the controversial Palestine Congress in Berlin, the German authorities have also imposed an entry ban on former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis. “In order to prevent antisemitic and anti-Israel propaganda at the event”, several entry bans have been issued, the news agency AFP learned from security sources on Sunday. One of these concerned Varoufakis. (Notably, Varoufakis would have spoken about one-state solutions …)
federal reverse (on behalf of the mods of !europe)
I think the post in itself is informational, many of the comments are not.
Post stays, comments get locked.
It is because their admins are in Germany and they fear the extreme repercussion that the German State has done recently. Did you even read the post you pasted? Are are you intentionally trying to stir up drama?
Not everyone lives in safety these days. Fascism has made it hard to do things like host a volunteer run online forum safely. There are cases where the heavily armed SEK arrest people at gun point for this. Do you think online moderators should be required to catch a bullet for your posts?
You don’t solve fascism by bowing down. But of course one can wait for another population to solve it for them.
Just curious, who do you accuse of fascism?
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And what is fascist about them? You abide your local law don’t you?
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Ezpz. Just added feddit.org to my instance block. Freedom of the fediverse at work.
I did that already. Can’t read German and the apps don’t translate yet.
This kind of seems… reasonable? Like, they have and convey a compelling legal reason for needing to do this. There’s plenty of other Lemmy instances where these opinions and statements can be freely expressed. Further, they’re explicitly allowing discourse that conveys similar sentiment but doesn’t go against German law.
I guess my question is, what’s the objection here?
Mostly that they host the main Europe-centric comm, [email protected]. You can see the problem when criticism of Europe’s most powerful country is censored in said comm, and users banned, for relatively innocuous comments.
That’s a fair concern; maybe the recourse is just to move the community to a different instance? If the community as a whole is largely in agreement, this shouldn’t be a difficult task. Even less of one if the mods agree.
The mods don’t seem to think it’s a major issue, I haven’t heard any of them actually admit this is a problematic situation to have. Some folks have set up a new community at [email protected]
which country, and what kind of criticism?
Germany, and any criticism of Israel, or dealings with thereof, that crosses a somewhat arbitrary (for those of us living outside Germany) line.
To all you folks who’re downvoting this comment: Are you basing your opinion on OP’s biased, slanted account of this policy, or did you read the actual post from the Feddit admins? You don’t have to answer me, but if it’s the former, maybe self-reflect that you’re here complaining about censorship and propaganda, yet you’re doing so in response to a very propaganda-laden post that misrepresents the actual situation.
They do not. Their servers are not hosted in Germany. If their moderators feel like they would be endangered for not following German law they should step down instead of applying their German censorship to a European server.
Their moderators and German users appear to proudly agree with these German censorship laws in the comments beneath their post. So the legal part looks more like a convenient excuse.
Agreed. They support the genocide and are hiding behind the law to save face.
Jesus fucking Christ. Witch hunt much?
I’m not calling for the admins to be burned at the stake. If you don’t perceive an obviously slant in their words that’s fine - I’m sharing my take just like they’re sharing theirs.
They still allow you to call out on the genocide, how are they supporting it?
The admins are also German, though, and seem to suggest that they feel at risk by this, as well. Maybe it’s just time for another European instance to start up, with admins not in Germany, who feel comfortable hosting this discourse?
Given that the main issue is they’re the host for !europe, an alternative comm has been set up at [email protected]
Elad Barashi, who has worked in the Israeli entertainment industry for several years, sparked outrage after posting on X: “Good morning, let there be a Shoa (Holocaust) in Gaza.”
In another post, he wrote, “I can’t understand the people here in the State of Israel who don’t want to fill Gaza with gas showers… or train cars… and finish this story! Let there be a Holocaust in Gaza.”
From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
Fuck the zionist genocidal bastards.
Despite all the culture of remembrance, despite all the memorials and despite all the history lessons, the general public is simply not aware of how efficiently, ruthlessly and industrially the Nazis carried out the Holocaust.
At its peak, in Operation Reinhard, from April to November 1942, 2.5 million Jews were murdered. 10,000 every day. In specially built camps to which people were transported by rail and sent directly to the gas chambers, where there was practically no chance of survival. In Majdanek, over 18,000 people were murdered in 9 hours. By 1945, two thirds of European Jews had been murdered and in the end only the advance of the Allies prevented the rest from being murdered as well.
This is the much-vaunted singularity of the Holocaust, namely the systematic, industrial murder in special murder factories. This industrial rate of murder is unique in the long history of genocides. Stalin’s camps were cruel, but they were not extermination camps with gas chambers. This also applies to other genocides.
So if you honestly compare the Gaza War with the Holocaust, you quickly realize that it is something completely different. And anyone who seriously equates the two is trivializing the Holocaust to an extent that almost borders on Holocaust denial. This is guaranteed to lead someone here to call me a “genocide denier”, but: if Israel acted like the Nazis in the Gaza Strip, all the women and children would be dead by now and a few last surviving men would be maltreated to death as work slaves. And yes, we all know why Israel of all places is constantly compared to the Holocaust, even though there is no factual basis.
*automatically translated from a feddit.org user I very much agree with. Not citing the account himself to not disclose him protecting them from brigading.
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Saying “the Israeli government is acting like Nazis” is not the same thing as saying that “the current genocide being perpertrated against the Palestinians is equivalent to the Holocaust”. The former sentence can be true regardless of the truth or falsity of the latter sentence.
While I think calling the Israeli government “Nazis” is a simplification and kind of weakens the meaning of the word Nazi, I absolutely agree with you.
Fair enough. People also use the term for e.g. american fascists. I think it would be reasonable these days treat the word as if it has two meanings, one historical, and one a more general synonym for “fascist”.
Did people have an issue with a particular Seinfeld episode ?
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They never said it’s not a genocide. They said its not the Holocaust. We all agree there is a genocide in Gaza carried out by a far-right Israeli government.
They never said it’s a matter of number. They halfly imply it though, i agree, but what they actually explicitly said is it’s a matter of it being systemic or not. It’s debatable, the use of daily bombing is both quite industrial and not as efficient as death camps, so it’s perfectly fine to target on that point. But do not hide behind the number things, which we all agree to be dumb, as a way to avoid considering the potential gaps in a comparison between Nazis and Israeli government.
I think it’s okay to say both have huge similarities that they never should have, but you don’t need them to be 100% the same for the point to be pertinent, so you can accept it when someone points out differences.
When somebody calls it the “Gaza WAR”, they are a Zionist and support the genocide in Gaza.
Calls to end Zionism
This one is egregious. I mean come on.
Not being able to criticize leaders that the International Criminal Court has issued arrest warrants against is bonkers and simple censorship. It’s like we’re right back in the 30s and I wish I was exaggerating.
You are allowed to criticise the leaders of israel, its not banned.
I read it more carefully and you are right. The title is actually wrong as I have mentioned in the edit. Thank you anyway.
I got banned from that community for saying zionism is antisemitic. The mods called it “rage bait”.
I was actually testing whether the mods are zionists, and since they were enraged by my post, I think they are.
literally ragebaits Gets banned for ragebaiting Mods are zionists
Lmao
Y’all should actually read the post. They’re clear that they don’t want to do this but fear extreme repression by the German government, and they even listed examples of what exactly they’re trying to avoid. I’m no Israel apologist, but I’m convinced.
Feddit users commenting beneath it support this wholly. One of them made this “meme”:
Feddit.org has also been banning users for things such as comparing Israel to the Nazis before they made this post. Then they owned up to it as their personal views. This is why they do not say they disagree with the German laws but they “do not wish to discuss it.”
Yeah fair enough.
I’ve read the post, and I’m still unhappy with their decision. Capitulation only accelerates fascism.
That’s true, but it’s still up to them whether they want to get arrested over social media comments somebody else made.
Sounds like you need to just make sure you’re specifying the current government of Israel and their actions, rather than the state of Israel in general terms or as a overall concept.
Comments will not be removed for the following: Denouncing genocide. • Denouncing Israeli war crimes. • Criticizing Zionism as an ideology or political movement. • Referring to the current Israeli government as “criminal,” “expansionist,” or “far-right”.
No, I got banned for criticising Zionism, and it was really clear I wasn’t attacking Jews, because I said zionism is antisemitic.
I agree. Nobody should be risking their safety / livelihood / whatever to host a random internet discussion site. That doesn’t mean we should leave the situation as it is. I believe the main concern is to move off the !europe comm there and onto the new one at [email protected]
This is the best solution.
Zionism is a fascist ideology. There is nothing to gain from hosting in a country where people feel compelled to suppress opposition to and liberation against that fascist ideology out of fear of incarceration and police brutality
Free Palestine
ACAB
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The title of this post is sensationalized, click-baitey, and factually incorrect according to the posted text. It’s as if OP either didn’t read the text they copy/pasted or they are trying to intentionally stir up shit…
Two out of three. I read the post and that’s exactly what the admins of F.O say will do. It’s them who are stirring up shit.
50% of the post here are. Echo chambers rely on most users never reading the article.
Nothing in the post is incorrect or sensationalized. You did not read it.
“they will ban criticism of Israel” : they will only ban calls for end of Israel and equating Nazis and Israel. You can still criticize Israel. Its like saying “They ban fruits” when they only ban oranges. It’s still a problem, but you’re making it larger than it seems, that’s on the path of clickbait/sensationalism (i do not think that this was intended of you though, it’s just what comes out of the way you wrote it).
Apartheid South Africa needs to be dissolved.
Israel needs to be dissolved.
What is the difference between these two sentences and why is one of them banned on feddit.org?
As you explained in your post, because of some bullshit german law and admin decision. It’s bad. We agree on this.
Your title should still be ‘bans calls for end of Israel and calling Israel nazis’ or at the very least ‘bans some criticism of Israel’.
Equating Nazis and Zionists, if the shoe fits. You should be allowed to say it.
Overall agreeing with you, you should at least be able to defend this pov.
But that should be the title instead of ‘bans all criticism of Israel’.
“Bans all criticism of Israel” is not the title. The title is that they are banning criticism of Israel, which is true. It’s also true that if someone bans oranges, then they are “banning fruits,” it would only be untrue if they said, “banning all fruits.”
The title does leave it ambiguous in a way that people might think it extends to all criticism, but that’s not actually what it says.
Just FYI. There’s truth to this, but this post headline is very clickbait.
You’re still allowed to do things like call out the genocide, call the Israeli government facist etc.
What you can’t do is stuff like call for a violent overthrow of the state of Israel.
(Which I disagree with because since the status quo is violence I think violence is justified in overturning it)
But anyways. It’s less extreme than the headline suggests.
And also it’s in an effort to comply with German laws. (Which again, I disagree with, but I’m not the one at risk of getting raided here so yeah).
Banning the call to dissolve the genocidal Israeli Apartheid would be akin to saying you can disagree with Donald Trump, but you are not allowed to say that he should be impeached.
Germans are not allowing the problem nor the solution to be named. Thus they live in a vague haze where both sides are guilty and there is seemingly no solution possible except the full genocide of all Palestinians.
Huh, the rules amendment in OP says that they can’t say the Israeli government is “expansionist” or “far-right”, why would “fascist” be okay?
Is you want to understand the spirit of the rules, look no further past the first one:
Calling for the dissolution of Israel, or calling for a one-state solution without specifying equal rights for all people; Jewish in particular.
Why Jewish in particular? How is “equal rights for all people” compatible with “one group of people in particular”?
Jewish supremacism, Israel and Zionism is Jewish ISIS, and trying to hide that part of Israel and punish any discourse around that problem is fascism.
They may let you call Israel fascist in passing, but they won’t let you describe its fascism, that is the bannable offense.
Equal rights for all, but with Jewish people being more equal than everyone else.
It amuses me that expressing understanding with the retaliation is forbidden. I definitely understand why a militant extremist group has arisen after decades of oppression and genocide.
Like, how do you negotiate your way out of that peacefully? Where in history has oppression on that level been defeated through diplomacy?
I seem to have forgotten the part where the allies defeated Nazi Germany by asking nicely. Surely no war was fought for recognising black people as humans in the U.S.
Perhaps Ukraine should put down their weapons and ask Russia to pretty please stop invading their country and killing their people.
Ugh.
Retaliation? i think you got it backwards.
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There was a report that Israel killed more children in 2023 than any other year. It was released before October 7.
This one here, right?
Endorsement of or justifications for Hamas or Hezbollah, or slogans or graphics positively referring to these organizations. These are considered terrorist organizations in Germany.
I don’t think expressing understanding is either endorsement or justification. So as written, it should be fine, but since it comes down to the mods interpretation, who knows what the outcome would actually be.
Hahaha YES DEFEDERATE THE FEDIVERSE
