This is an open question on how to get the masses to care…
Unfortunately, if other people don’t protect their privacy it affects those who do, because we’re all connected (e.g. other family members, friends). So it presents a problem of how do you get people who don’t care, to care?
I started the Rebel Tech Alliance nonprofit to try to help with this, but we’re still really struggling to convert people who have never thought about this.
(BTW you might need to refresh our website a few times to get it to load - no idea why… It does have an SSL cert!)
So I hope we can have a useful discussion here - privacy is a team sport, how do we get more people to play?
I have learned that the best game is simply not to play. You risk annoying the hell out of people. Let them get curious, maybe mention it but they have to come to you. Pushing it onto people who do not care is simply not worth it. You are wasting your time, this is real life. Some people will simply not want to care. It is their choice and sometimes that choice will not match yours.
The people I have so-called converted where people who actually were interest to know more. If you push it on people who are not interested then you risk being that annoying person who comes off as an activist or ideologue.
In my experience all the good arguments in governments that change, big companies making money etc are still too abstract to people.
But i have found one argument that at least made women and older men with daughters think about it. Stalking. With reverse image search and stupid people finder apps and ai that can estimate how you look now based on an old picture and vice versa, stalking got soooo easy. Anyone can just secretely take a picture of a girl they find interesting in public and find her social media profile and see where she usually hangs out etc. (Of course also all other genders get stalked - this is just the most known example).
That can work, but it could go the other way too. We’ve already seen scaremongering claims like “right to repair will allow creepy car mechanics to stalk your location”, “encryption is used by criminals”, “local image scanning prevents child abuse”, etc.
Education.
Threats & intimidation?
Just spitballing here…
I sometimes wonder if NordVPN has done more for the privacy cause than anything else, purely for the sheer amount of advertising.
But most of their claims are false. And how does it do anything for privacy. And if you say obscures your ip address.
It certainly make me feel safer against big tech snooping. Is obscuring your IP address not useful? I genuinely want to hear the arguments for and against VPNs. And if they’re not effective what are better ways we can protect ourselves?
VPNs hide your IP from your ISP and anyone they share that information with. Here in the UK ISPs keep a record of every internet connection you make and pass it on to the government and perhaps others. Using a VPN here means that instead of them knowing every single website you visit they just know you are using a VPN (or Tor, or a proxy etc if that’s what you’re using). All they can tell from that data is what time you’re active online and how much data you upload/download, not which websites you’re visiting.
The websites that you connect to at the other end can still determine who you are by means other than your IP address, like information that your machine presents to them which is unique. VPNs don’t protect against this.
A VPN is like a private courier. What the recipient does with the delivered message (and what you’ve put in it) is out of the courier’s hands.
Steal their identity and doxx them. They’ll play along after that experience
harsh! but might work lol
One method is to put a $ on privacy. Consider this: if you were offered $5 for every piece of information you shared about yourself, would you still share it? Probably not.
I like this concept and I feel like that a step along the way as it is essentially what’s happening. The EULA’s, TOS’s, SLA’s, etc are all contracts, which should be negotiable by both parties and allow the individuals or groups to define value, be that monetary value (the $5) or something in trade. Some how we the masses skipped over the negotiation, and are left with an almost binary choice either accept and use it or not. (You could sue, or protest, or etc, but without standing or a large following this is not effective for an individual.)
So whilst’ I agree, I also think it might be more useful to focus on the reason the information is valuable.
You’re basically studying viral pathology and immunology at that point. Remember how restaurant little can be for making and for vaccinations in American culture?
On top of it taking the slightest effort … We basically have to settle the solutions and then invite or incentivize them into it, which is hard when you’re against disinformation networks with better fundling.
Not to say it’s hopeless. Just that the incentives in a highly individualized society captured under surveillance capitalism are misaligned.
Interesting you say viral pathology and immunology. Can you expand on what you mean on that a bit? I find it a useful analog for what’s going on.
It has to be easy, low effort, and something there friends are doing too.
I have a feeling a whole bunch of people are about to start caring, when they see normal things being used as excuses to arrest friends, family, colleagues.
This depends on your country though. America sure.
I’m in the UK and there’s a feeling amongst some that “we’re next” if we don’t curb the rise of the far right.
The Reform party’s victories here this week are another alarm bell.
I’d say those some are spot on. Governments love the "look what that country is doing!” while doing the same or worse, surreptitiously. Prestidigitation, really.
By the time we hit this spot, historically, it is too late and fuckening will proceed as scheduled.
I can’t get on board with doomerism anymore. It’s giving up our power and either we have it, reclaim if or don’t. I’m seeing a lot of denial, "oh look a squirrel!” and hopelessness. None of these serve us.
I surely aint giving up! There is but so much a single person can do but they should be doing it. But most people can’t be bothered to fix their consumption patterns or address privacy in any meaningful way. If a mean person can’t do that, I don’t see any progress.
Either we hit critical mass between gen y and gen z to get something done, or techo lords gonna take over and in the future there won’t be much of any accountability for them.
Oh, I see it too. I’m just a “keep getting up until you can’t” kind of person. Apathy at home and entertainment culture in general serves the money masters well. I’m just wondering if the public will actually move or continue circuses, once the bread is gone.
Anyone want to join my privacy team? I’m trying out for the 2026 Olympics.
Same brooo🤣🤣
I think certain arguments work, and certain don’t.
I live in a very high trust society, Norway. This has a lot of advantages, but also some downsides.
We trust eachother, our neighbours, our government and our media. Which is fantastic, and well deserved. The government deserves the trust.
This makes it hard for me to make people realize how important privacy is, because they trust organizations with their data.
During COVID, Norway made their own app for tracking who met to prevent the spread. Of all the apps in the world, Norway wanted to push about the least privacy friendly app in the world. This from a country with the highest press freedom and rankings for democracy. Most people though it was fine, because why not? We trust our government.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/06/norway-covid19-contact-tracing-app-privacy-win/
Luckily someone protested enough, and it got scrapped for something better.
When I try to convince someone I have a couple of angles:
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You trust the government and organizations with your data today. But do you trust the government in 30 years? Because data is forever. The US has changed a lot in a very short time, this can happen here as well
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You have a responsibility for other peoples privacy as well. When you use an app that gets access to all your SMSes and contacts you spy on behalf of companies on people that might need protection. Asylum seekers from other countries for instance.
This is a VERY interesting perspective - thank you for sharing!
You are lucky in Norway to have that level of trust, but I’d never considered the flip side: that it would create a dangerous apathy about privacy.
Your two angles are great:
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This is so true but for some it is so nebulous, and it countries like the UK (and especially if you are white and not struggling financially) then there is an exceptionalism that creeps into the thinking. Probably because we’ve never been invaded and occupied. I was in Norway last year, and Denmark this year, and no one wants that to happen again. It seems to have shaped thinking a lot - correct me if i’m wrong 😊
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This is a big one - privacy is a collective problem. It’s a team sport. I have had some success with this argument.
What’s very hard is to convey to people just how amazingly powerful and efficient big tech’s profiling models really are. Trillions of computations a minute to keep your creepy digital twin up to date. Most people cannot get their head round the scale of it, and I’m struggling to visualise it for them!
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Convince them to trust open source
While I agree in theory, in practice open source has a similar amount of expected trust as closed source can have in many cases. I use all sorts of open source software without reading the code. I ain’t got time for that.
I can trust that software from a lot of organizations are trustworthy even if it is closed source, but I can’t trust any open source repo without reading the code. I habe to use other ways to evaluate it, is it probable that someone has audited it? Is it popular? Is it recognized as safe and trustworthy? Is the published and finished build the same as the one I would get if I built it myself?
But yes, you can never be 100% certain without open source and auditing it yourself.
I do trust that my travel pass app from a government organization doesn’t install malware / spyware on my phone. I can’t trust a random github repo even if it is open source.
The only source that can be trusted ✊
Something similar happened in Denmark with the new Sundhedloven, which had provisions allowing the government to forcefully isolate people in concentration camps, along with forcefully vaccinating them.
This was of course alarming for those who were in the know, but very few people protested (and the law was subsequently amended), but the general attitude from the public was “it’s not a problem because something like THAT would ever happen in Denmark.” 🤡
The Swedish authorities have been known to mess with the reproductive rights of minorities, didn’t Denmark also meddle in extremely unethical bullshit? Is your comment an obvious reference I’m missing?
We had some emergency law that was almost passed recently. As in it passed the first of two rounds. The second voting round is just a formality, all laws are just passed after the first in practice. Luckily some law professor raised the alarms and it did not pass the second time. So within a couple of hours margin it was stopped.
The law gave the government the ability to force people to do a lot of stuff, work any job at any place in Norway. If you do not comply you could get up to three years in prison. It would not be a problem with the current or any government in the near future, but it is a law. And we can’t have laws that rely on trusting politicians. Because we might have politicians with anti democratic tendencies in the future
This is the same argument against trusting opaque algorithms from proprietary systems (usually billionaire owned). You just don’t know when they’re going to tweak it for their purposes.
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Starting by not calling people that don’t know/care about privacy “normies”, and educating them I guess.
Also I’d say start with the “easier” ones, for instance anti-capitalist people are more open to find ways to avoid surveillance capitalism. If enough of these people care and educate their respective circles, eventually all people will care.
Also I’d say start with the “easier” ones, for instance anti-capitalist people are more open to find ways to avoid surveillance capitalism. If enough of these people care and educate their respective circles, eventually all people will care.
And pro-capitalism people should simply avoid being under surveillance of someone who can potentially help their competition with targetted info about them.
I have friends and family who occupy both sides of the political spectrum, so it’s impossible to have just one message that suits both. That’s why I’ve largely avoided politics my whole life…
But tech has become political, so it’s not that easy to avoid anymore 😬
On my website homepage Rebel Tech Alliance.org I try and make it clear that we’re trying to undermine a business model, not a political ideology. But the presence of the word ‘capitalism’ in surveillance capitalism does trigger some people to start talking politics.
People want to use the sites and apps that the people they talk to are using. I’m on hexbear because the chapo reddit was banned, not because privacy or whatever. 99% of people will always choose “app that lets me talk to the people I want to and also spies on me” over “app that doesn’t do either of those.”
I can use an sdr to read your water meter and determine how often you go to the bathroom, shower, wash your clothes, and when you’re home and it’s not illegal. I’m allowed to follow you around and take your picture as much as I want to. I can print off as many pictures of you as I want in public and wallpaper my whole house with your face and body, there’s nothing you can do about it. I can do an 8 hour video essay about you and share this with everyone. As long as the info is publicly available (or not in most U.S. states), it’s legal.
You could get charged with stalking.
In my state it’s not stalking if you don’t make any threats. You don’t have an expectation of privacy in public. That’s the argument they use with license plate cameras and other warrantless survelance, tracking, facial recognition, etc.
