Hey Folks! Someone in my family (Person A), has talked to a guy, who is working in the tech world, about if it make sense to use Signal, over Messenger, Snap, WhatsApp, with privacy in mind. The tech guy said, there is no difference, and that its not making sense to use it and that its almost the same. I know Signal is discussed alot here, but im now looking for some arguments, and facts to tell the one from my family, that the tech guy is wrong. What arguments can i use, why is Signal better in privacy, then the other alternatives? Person A, has always been sceptical about me beeing so privacy minded, and A thinks that there is nothing to do to protect, and is one of thoese saying : I have nothing to hide.
Edit: thank you for the help
@[email protected] Do you still require help?
Signal is the only app on that list whose app is open source. That means it can be audited to see if they are telling the truth.
You cannot say the same for the others and you just have to take them at their word. Should we take Facebook at their word?
It’s also the only app on the list managed by a 501©3 non-profit, so you can additionally check where their money goes.
That’s true! I can’t wait to “shoot” back with arguments :-)
Also the FBI took signal to court and the only data they could provide was the date of signup and last login timestamp
This is an important extra point: being open source, a government can’t secretly mandate a back door, because everyone would be able to see it. For the other options listed, there are no guarantees.
They can put the backdoor in themselves though, see the recent xz backdoor. But the question is whether it would be found out or not.
xz almost worked because it was in something nobody was looking at. Signal code is audited regularly.
xz backdoor rely on two testfile with malware, some script that do specific thing to malware to unmask and inject. If commit later change any part to break backdoor, signal probably forced to reject to keep backdoor.
But why reject good change? Might raise red flag.
I don’t think there’s much of a point unless person A actually wants to make a change in their habits. It’s like trying to convince someone to switch to Linux.
A don’t wanna change mind, A always wanna be right, so I have to have the best arguments, not to make person a to switch, but to “win” the discussion 🙂
I managed to convince my family to switch by pointing out that the FBI and CISA both recommended switching to E2EE apps due to ongoing telecom hacks.
Sometimes, reality is enough to scare people into change.
I convinced my family to switch by giving them my Signal contact info and letting them know that that’s where they could contact me. I ditched my WhatsApp account when Facebook bought them, and never had any of the other accounts because I knew too much about the people behind the companies.
Both easy, backdoor them with the idea.
Snapchat does not use end-to-end encryption for messages, so it doesn’t even belong in the conversation.
WhatsApp and FB Messenger are somewhat defensible choices since they at least use E2EE by default (Messenger did not until recently). However, there are a few good reasons to favor Signal:
- It is open source. Interested parties can actually verify that Signal’s encryption claims are true. Interested parties can also audit new versions as they released.
- Facebook/Meta, as a company, has a long history of tracking users, leaking user data, and even conducting psychological experiments on users without consent and in secret.
- WhatsApp and Messenger only allow 6-digit PINs to secure your messages. With that PIN, you can decrypt those messages. Signal allows for longer alphanumeric passcodes.
- Facebook makes no promises not to track your usage of Messenger or WhatsApp, only that the messages themselves are encrypted.
Whats’ app, while E2EE can still pull lots of information from who you message, how often, the size of the messages, and contact’s phone number. Messenger has the content of your messages and with whom you converse according to Facebook account info stored on Facebook servers. Snapchat has a record of all activity, contacts, and message content. The messages only disappear from app but not from SnapChat servers. All 3 of those record of how you live your life, except Whatsapp can’t see content of messages but still has your activities and contact phone numbers.
Signal was ordered to turn over user content to court and Signal only had when the user last connected to the service and date of account creation. Signal had zero information about messages, when messages were sent, or to whom.
For me it is not so much about personal privacy, as against concentration of power.
Insane money combined with capacity of invisible, precise manipulation of mass information is really hurting democracies. Big tech is already richer than most countries, and their negative influence is more visible than ever. So now we, who believe in democratic principles, have to vote not only with ballots, but also with our choices and our conscious attention. The least we can do is resist this concentration of power on personal level. Ideally - do it together.
This is how I see it too. It’s why I use Telegram (which I know is dodgy) but not Whatsapp.
show them a picture of zuckersuckers face and ask if they would trust him with your secrets
I think that this is a pretty good reason.
If the billionaires are using it for privacy, then it is likely the best one.
I mean, how much do you wanna bet that they all had a private dinner with the other billionaires that own other apps and had a private conversation about whether their messages are actually private and able to be hid from the government?
WhatsApp tracks when and who you talk with.
Thar information is used to put people on government target lists and kill them.
For the purposes of the average person the tech guy in your op is absolutely 100% correct.
All the platforms listed use transport encryption and that’s enough to avoid mitm surveillance which is enough for most people.
Most people’s “threat model” is the police or a pi. All the apps listed including signal have to comply with orders from American police and have “sidechain attacks” that involve stuff like getting some member of the groupchat’s device and scrolling up or tricking someone into giving up sensitive information.
Send them both a bunch of videos from Naomi Brockwell (NBTV). Or buy them each a copy of her book
Show them this: https://techcrunch.com/2025/01/22/whatsapp-wins-reprieve-in-india-over-user-data-sharing/
The dispute began when WhatsApp required users to accept expanded data sharing with Meta’s platforms or risk losing access to the messaging service. While European users can opt out of such sharing, Indian users cannot — a distinction that regulators found problematic.
Meta doesn’t know what you’re talking about, because WhatsApp is e2ee. But they know:
- who are you talking to
- when
- how often
- what else were you doing before/during/after the talk
- links that are shared (the preview fetch is not e2ee afaik)
These are all valuable metadata and given enough of it, they can even infer what you were talking about. Target you with ads on their other platforms (but rumors are that WhatsApp will have ads inside eventually)
(the preview fetch is not e2ee afaik)
Technically, it is, but end to end encryption only covers the data between the ends, and not what one of the ends chooses to do with it. If one end of the conversation chooses to log the conversation in an insecure way, the conversation itself might technically be encrypted, but the contents of the conversation can be learned by another. Or if one end simply chooses to forward a message to a new party not part of the original conversation.
The link previews are happening outside of the conversation, and that action can be seen by people like the owner of the website, your ISP, and maybe WhatsApp itself (if configured in that way, not sure if it does).
So end to end isn’t a panacea. You have to understand how it fits into the broader context of security and threat models.
Signal is the best alternative to Meta messaging apps and to Snapchat for normies.
Signal is not the answer. Signal’s backend is essentially closed-source, and to my knowledge none of their binaries are reproducible with the code available. If you really want privacy and security in E2EE, you want somethjng that’s completely open-source (front and backend), and can be self-hosted entirely. Matrix is this.
Just because the tech guy is a tech guy doesn’t mean they have a sense of privacy, or even know what tech can do, harm wise… maybe for them it’s just hardware specs and Windows installations everyday
That’s so true. I thought so too, but Person A I a hard but to crack 😀
With that in mind, security and privacy are two completely different things.
For instance, I would say that WhatsApp is fairly secure. It just isn’t private at all. Meta can (and does) see and track your meta data.
Why is that important? I liked these 2 examples I read somewhere because they are simple but explain how powerful it is. Your phone calls are private. Your carrier isn’t allowed to listen in on your call to know what you talk about. But they can see that you called a suicide hotline while standing on a bridge. They can see that your doctor’s office called you and then you called an abortion clinic next. The following week your GPS location went to that clinic. Are these things Person A would willingly tell their phone provider? It’s none of their business so I assume not. But they essentially are when they don’t care about their privacy.
Another stance I take is that even if they don’t care about their privacy, can they at least respect mine? I don’t give their phone number out to anybody that asks. But non private apps look at all their contacts so they are doing exactly that to me. Think of the last spam call they got. If they knew it was because of you wouldn’t they be upset?
