cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/15995282
Real unfortunate news for GrapheneOS users as Revolut has decided to ban the use of ‘non-google’ approved OSes. This is currently being posted about and updated by GrahpeneOS over at Bluesky for those who want to follow it more closely.
Is this not a sign of the true intentions on both sides of the dilemma here!?!?
Let us go to the end. We cannot afford to carry on in fear of these bans. Let the lines be neatly placed and the sides chosen wisely. If sustained profits are desired, the walled-gardens must come down.Vote with your dollar and vote again with your data. Wary, but never afraid is the motto privacy comrades!
Agreed. Leave immediately to other services, and tell them why you’re leaving. It might not make a dent, but you’ll be doing the right thing at least.
man, and i was gonna switch to graphene this christmas. if every app can just ban my OS, i might have to rethink this. i would use the website but they restrict so many things to apps now…
Use a browser like Native Alpha or Hermit, which present a website like an app.
And if you use Bitwarden/Vaultwarden for your passwords, it can be pretty seamless.
TBF, this is the first time I’ve encountered an app not working - and it was before this. It’s just because of Google push towards monopoly via their Play Integrity API that’s ruining this.
play “integrity” should be considered malware, any program that deliberately does something the user doesn’t want it to should.
Well, switching to GrapheneOS shows that you don’t care what those companies do and that you’re willing to fight. It means those companies lose one more customer.
Honestly i didn’t even think of that. i’ll still switch then!
Nice choice. You not switching is exactly what these companies wanted.
I was about to switch bank because for a few days my current one (inadvertently) blocked it on grapheneOS. We sent them a few emails and they fixed in less than a week.
I use a small local credit union that doesn’t appear on their supported list. It’s literally the only thing holding me back, I’m tempted to say fuck it anyway. But I wonder if it might work anyway…
- Order a Pixel
- Flash GrapheneOS
- If it works, congratulations! If not, switch banks or revert to stock and return the phone.
What’s the app name? I could install it and see what happens
If nothing else can you use the browser?
I’ve used Hermit for years to present websites like an app, and am using Native Alpha on my new phone.
Yeah you’re probably right. I’ve gotta get a new phone before I can really attempt it, but I’ll at least try!
I haven’t switched my phone yet, but will do so soon. Does anyone have experience with compatibility layers on phone, akin to wine? I unfortunately cannot go without my public transport apps, and they’re android or IOS only. I’ve looking into postmarket OS, but open for suggestions.
GrapheneOS is Android.
Huh TIL, thanks! So would apps usually work, just like on regular android? Except the aforementioned, of course.
Most EVERYTHING works unless your app dev is PoS like these guys.
Another alternative is MicroG which might work better in light of recent development.
How zealous are you on dumping google?
Well yes and no. The point is to stop using Google. And that entails quite a few things you might expect a phone to do
You can take a look at calyxOS, it’s what I use. Android but with all Google telemetry ripped out. It’s not as resistant as graphene against a govt adversary, but for privacy, better battery (bc google stuff isn’t constantly running) and still being able to use everything, it works great.
What public transport apps if I may ask? Most of Western Europe and especially Germany present no issues and even have OSS options, same with Finland.
Thanks for the input, i realise it’s been a while since I checked this! ÖBB Scotty, ÖBB Tickets (could forgo this one) and SBB mobile. I also need Digitales Amt (official government app for things like signing contracts without printing them, ordering your election materials to a different address than usual, checking your medical info etc). Do you happen to know whether that would work?
Don’t know and sadly my Pixel got stolen recently, but you can see if Offi or Transportr meet your needs, they’re available on fdroid.
I guess I have bad news for you regarding the government app: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/253-compatibility-for-austria-e-government-app
Anyway depending on your threat model keeping a normiephone as a decoy and mainlining something like graphene os can be a good opsec decision.
Nice, thanks for the tip! Also thanks for going through the trouble of finding out for me, I appreciate it! I’m unfortunately in one of the regions where it’s specifically not available. But the second phone thing might be an option. That, or just a compatibility layer with regular old android after all.
You can use Waydroid on PostmarketOS to install Android apps. It basically runs a full VM for you.
This is very bad news, because this means any app that wants your data could do the same.
Maybe graphene will find a way into duping those apps to think you have a regular android phone?
On the other hand, it makes it easy to find which apps aren’t to be trusted with your data.
Also very obvious when an app or website have an US and an EU version. You just know they buttfuck the Americans because no rules.
Even Apple had to make two versions of iOS.
Their loss.
This makes me want to use GrapheneOS more. If the dataminers don’t want you to use it then it must be doing something right.
Too bad it only runs on Google’s phones…
It’s only officially supported on google phones because sadly those are the only ones that are not modified to fuck which makes installing and supporting other OS’es way too much work.
Giving google money once for a device is not a problem from a privacy or security standpoint.
That’s correct, but not the reason grapheneOS chooses only pixel phones. It’s the level of hardware security features.
Also unlockable and presumably has well working builds. It’s not just graphene, but just about every Android project it there that’s best supported on pixels. Other manufacturers have a crazy variety of locking schemes and required tools. Each one is a nightmare to support.
For GrapheneOS, it’s primarily that it’s re-lockable. That’s why other unlockable phones aren’t supported.
The GrapheneOS install process sets new OS signing keys so you can lock the phone again and get full verified boot. However, most manufacturers haven’t implemented this feature.
Yes, that cuts the list down even more.
What do you get, app/feature wise for verified boot vs. Play integrity app? Does it increase the amount of apps that work on it?
No, Play Integrity intentionally checks if it’s a Google-approved key. Android itself has an API to check verified boot and gives info on the signing key - most devs just want to know verified boot is working.
I feel Play Integrity has a short life ahead of if competition authorities realise how exactly it works. “Anti-competitive” is the first thing policy-minded folks think when I explain the API to them.
Second hand, no money for them
In the EU almost every phone has an unlockable bootloader, there just isn’t any roms or custom recoveries for a lot of them.
Wish they’d at least support Fairphone.
If Graphene reached out to them I bet Fairphone would even actively work with them to make it an official OS option.
Fairphone would need to substantially modify their hardware to make that work
Right? Have to pay google for the privilege
You can always buy a second hand one
Someone installing graphene os for security shouldn’t be trusting random second/third/etc hand hardware lol
Shouldn’t trust anything then. They could intercept your new phone and modify it. They did it for switches. But your not worth it for “them”.
There is absolutely no problem with that. The phone is wiped and encrypted when you flash graphene, and it does an integrity check every time it boots.
And you can even use the GrapheneOS Auditor app to perform a manual verification of the OS.
Hypothetically the hardware could have been modified, but that would take some insane level of a determined attacker to be fabricating modified pixels just to sell them on the used market.
Yes, this would only be a concern for targeted attacks by state actors, in which case not even buying new would be safe.
Thinking about it, in such a scenario buying used may even be safer
It also comes with a hardware auditor, although you need another trusted graphene phone to use it. I don’t know about the details, but sounds very hard to mess with it.
Nothing too hypothetical nor an “insane” level of work. Didn’t Israel do just that with some beepers to blow up children?
Your options are:
Apple phone
Bloated android phone like Samsung etc.
Chinese android phone (xiami etc)
Google phone with Android
Google phone with graphene. This still looks like the best of those options.
Or no phone? I guess people are hardcore enough that will be the option.
I use cheap motorola phone with lineage OS, add that to your options
I don’t think LOS has any privacy/security improvements over the stock android?
(IIRC) it’s even worse than stock because you can’t lock the bootloader after installation.
Though if your phone isn’t getting official updates, it’s probably safer with LOS.
(IIRC) it’s even worse than stock because you can’t lock the bootloader after installation.
That’s a problem with the phone manufacturer, not with Lineage.
LineageOS itself drastically weakens security even compared to stock AOSP, for example by exposing root access or deploying insecure SELinux policies
There’s also the Lineage-based DivestOS that attempts to keep up with more security updates, and relocking the bootloader in phones that support it.
Yeah, I myself am using CalyxOS, because DivestOS doesn’t support the Fairphone 5 unfortunately. CalyxOS also has relocking.
Physical access is game over anyway?
Not with GrapheneOS, since you can entirely disable the USB controller from the settings on a driver level, making it impossible to connect the phone to a forensic data extraction device. GrapheneOS also has a convenient auto-reboot feature, which (together with their patches to the Linux kernel and Fastboot recovery OS to include memory zeroing) erases the encryption keys from memory, putting the device in BFU state and requiring the PIN/password to unlock. This is additionally secured by the Titan M2 secure element, which makes use of the Weaver API and drastically throttles brute-force unlock attempts. https://grapheneos.org/faq#encryption
Xiaomi has the biggest custom ROM scene out there btw despite them trying their hardest to stop bootloader unlocking. You really don’t need to have a company supporting unlocking to make ROMs for them. If they outright block it then that’s an issue.
I read somewhere that on some xiaomi phones in china you need to request it, https://github.com/melontini/bootloader-unlock-wall-of-shame/blob/main/brands/xiaomi/README.md
Fairphone? Swiftphone? eOS? Linuxphone? PostmarketOS etc?
Is swiftphone its own thing or did you mean shiftphone? I kinda want the shiftphone 8 myself even if they only ship to neighboring countries of mine.
Ah sorry, you’re right. I meant shiftphone.
There’s always package forwarding. I’m about to find out how bad an idea that is.
All of these are insecure as hell. Linux phones especially https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux-phones.html
Fairphone also really fucked up: They signed their own OS with the publicly available (!) AOSP test signing keys. These guys really don’t know that they’re doing, and I would trust their hardware or software whatsoever. And no, installing a custom ROM doesn’t solve this. Considering how bad their security practices are, we genuinely have to assume that there are security issues with the device firmware as well.
/e/OS is based on the already insecure LineageOS, and it weakens the security further, so it’s not a good option either.
None of the options you mentioned can be compared to GrapheneOS. It’s currently the best option if you value your privacy and security. You don’t have to give Google money either, since you can just buy a used device, which is also cheaper and more environmentally friendly. Google also makes repairing their devices pretty easy for consumers and even works with iFixit. Here’s a Mastodon post I recently saw about that: https://social.linux.pizza/@midtsveen/113630773097519792
An used Pixel, assuming I can find one in my country, still costs four (4) times what I need to shell out for a in-market Lineage compatible phone.
Theoretical security is cute, but it has to be adjusted to practical feasibility. The most secure computer in the world is useless to you if you can’t boot it up.
Security-wise you’re better off using whatever OS comes with your device than downgrading to LineageOS. At least most smartphone vendors (except for Fairphone) manage to ship their Stock OS with a locked bootloader and somewhat working Verified Boot.
I just switched, looks like uber is working for me
Uber driver
Wait until the next update.
I think we gonna start learning who actually can’t handle not getting your data finally.
Also microg v sanboxed gps debate might get resolved
also as a former driver I just want to say DOWN WITH THEIR ECONOMIC TERRORISM!
I’m a microG guy, so I use Calyx. I wish graphene supported microG.
Why would anyone load an app from McDonalds? You want to give them elevated access to your most personal data for a few dollars of coupons?
What are they taking from you that’s worth more than the discounts they are giving you? Because they are definitely making a profit, or they wouldn’t be doing it.
I used to work hosting Focus Groups, we would pay cash, and top dollar for even small chunks of specific data sets on demographics that would age very quickly. Since people’s habits change, different trends, feedback, etc. Hence the need of constant campaigns. Today, people give a lot of this data away, for free, in a constant data stream, for months if not years on end for cents or even a couple of bucks a month. Via constant tracking and profiling. It’s crazy how privacy illiterate people are.
We are definitely in the era where people think discounts before user privacy. I bet most of people downloading the Mcdonald app do it exactly because of cheeper prices and easy of access.
just had medium fries and coke. i and many i know use the mc D app because of the discounts it gives when i order through my app.
just had medium fries and coke. i and many i know use the mc D app because of the discounts it gives when i order through my app.
How did you manage to post the same comment 4 times? 🙃
just had medium fries and coke. many people i know, including myself, use the mcd app because of the discounts it offers when ordering through the app. however, i am under the impression that since i use an ios device and have the option to decline being tracked by the app—which i very eagerly press “no” to—i am on the safe side. am i?
No, Apple isn’t your guardian angel with the press of a button.
Apple does extensive audit of mobile apps, including limitations of tracking. So the app cannot spy on something you are not letting it to know. But you are giving it a bunch of info voluntarily.
I’d say using that app on iOS is similar to making a food delivery order using a loyalty member ID. Basically, you are letting the company (McDonald’s) know who you are, what is your phone number, where do you live, and what do you like to eat. And if they wish to, they could use all that to purchase your profile from a data brocker. Or they can sell that info for a few cents to make up on that discount.
just had medium fries and coke. i and many i know use the mc D app because of the discounts it gives when i order through my app.
Fuck both of these companies. Never used McDicks app in the first place. Spyware bullshit.
The mcdonalds app is a scam to get you to agree to their arbitration clause
Care to elaborate? I’m curious.
Never mind. I found an article pretty quick. Thanks for the heads up anyway. :)
Funny that news nowadays is citing tik tok and reddit comments
https://www.thedailymeal.com/1431937/mcdonalds-app-terms-waive-rights-trial/
I can’t tell you how frustrating it is to not only be subjected to Fox
EntertainmentNews by my family, but to be subjected to their social media segments every 5 minutes (not exaggerating).It feels like when I find those ancient newspaper articles about how so-and-so moved in with her boyfriend before their wedding night or whatever.
Some things never change I guess.
Can you share with the class? (Shit service where I’m at D:)
I dont buy mcdogwater anymore but im interested
https://www.mashed.com/1432093/mcdonalds-new-app-terms-conditions-reactions/
They gave away free chips in exchange of you downloading their app and accepting their shitty conditions.
McDonalds? Uber?
They both have fully functioning webapps btw.
Sorry but it seems I might have been mistaken by calling out Uber on this one. Thought i read about Uber during this but I cant find back to it. Have changed the title.
It happens! And that list surely isn’t comprehensive.
I’ve been nagging my bank’s support to add the Graphene’s signatures, for example, no luck so far 😞
Do you mind sharing which bank you use?
Sofi
Right people who install various apps like McDonalds apps etc, are these even typical to GrapheneOS users? I’d think most would avoid superfluous data stealing apps.
I’ve been thinking of switching the GrapheneOS. I certainly enjoy my privacy, and are taking steps to move to sources that don’t harvest my data. Outside of YouTube and android I’ve completely degoogled myself, even replaced Maps with magic earth and OsmAnd. I even swapped full time to linux a handful of months ago as a gamer with a VR interest. But I’m not so hardcore to not use any service that might sell my data. I still use vanilla firefox, food ordering apps, and discord for example. So while I’m not someone who goes to extreme lengths to protect my data, moving over to GrapheneOS doesn’t seem like a huge inconvenience compared to the gains you get.
If you already don’t use Google apps, and your bank app doesn’t ban graphene, there shouldn’t be any issues at all tbh
You can use this website to check if your banking app is supported: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/
I switched to grapheneos on pixel 9 straight from iPhone. The only reason I have any google stuff on the phone is because of RCS messaging. There is literally nothing I have any issues with on this phone, software or hardware. It has been a very smooth and comfortable transition. I very much recommend giving it a try. I think you’d be surprised how little google (exclusively) gives, compared to how much they take.
Trackers I need find my to work. Well at least not spam everyone with a tracker is following you when my phone is also traveling with them.
What do you mean webapp? Isn’t the app that you install a webapp? And isn’t a website not an app because you dont install it?
PWA - Portable Web App, Apple was going to make this the primary way to run apps but then decided an app store and private stuff was more profit and their support for it tends to be on the suckier side, but has gotten better over the years. You install a PWA in your browser by either “Install” or “Add to home screen” or something like that depending on browser and device being used.
by webapps they mean browser based apps.
Apparently not. I guess some apps you install in the browser. Which is an important distinction, if they’re using the word correctly
Yes both are PWA capable. However I stand corrected. The McDonalds webapp now redirects you to the play store when you try to order.
Guess they don’t want me as a customer. (Not that I’d eat McDonalds anyway).
riders.uber.com is fully functional though, I use it often
If a business makes it too difficult to use them I just use someone else. I’m sure they understand that but are making a killing at the expense of other people.
There will come a day when there are no alternatives. Ive hit this in many places (EU banks, dating sites, etc)
Banks seem to be hit or miss, happy that mine works. Would rather switch Banks than use a stock Rom, though.
All the Uber stuff works in Browser, both eats and their fake taxi stuff.
Not having a subtle reminder to eat at McDonald’s is probably better for you.
Honestly, if your app could be a website, and includes services not on your website, fuck you, I’m gonna go to the competition.
Anyone tried waydroid or android in an emulator for these type of apps ?
Oh yeah that’s an insta-ban. And even the waydroid app devs say their security is atrocious and you shouldn’t use it for banking.
The list of apps that want to invade your privacy populates itself?
This sounds like an antitrust legal problem…
The GrapheneOS team is already talking to regulators: https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/112539378681400395
