In my (European) country now we can have a digital copy of the driving license on the phone. It specifically says that it’s valid to be presented to law enforcement officers during a check.
I saw amazed in the beginning. They went from limited beta testing to full scale nationwide launch in just two months. Unbelievable. And I even thought “wow this is so convenient I won’t need to take the wallet with me anymore”. I installed the government app and signed up with my government id and I got my digital driving license.
Then yesterday I got stopped by a random roadblock check and police asked me my id card. I was eager to immediately try the new app and show them the digital version, but then because music was playing via Bluetooth and I didn’t want to pause it, i just gave the real one.
They took it and went back to their patrol for a full five minutes while they were doing background checks on me.
That means if I used the digital version, they would had unlimited access to all my digital life. Photos, emails, chats, from decades ago.
What are you are going to do, you expect that they just scan the qr code on the window, but they take the phone from your hand. Are you going to complain raising doubts? Or even say “wait I pin the app with a lock so you can’t see the content?”
“I have nothing to hide” but surely when searching for some keywords something is going to pop-up. Maybe you did some ironic statement and now they want to know more about that.
And this is a godsend for the secret services. They no longer need to buy zero day exploits for infecting their targets, they can just cosplay as a patrol and have the victim hand the unlocked phone, for easy malware installation
Immediately uninstalled the government app, went back to traditional documents.
Yup, if you hand them your unlocked phone they can look through it.
What’s the possibility and legality of something like getting implemented in the US?
drivers licensees are by state and my only federal id is my ss card which doesnt have my picture or any current information. i dont think it would work as well here since you would need 50 different apps
Don’t get me wrong, it’s great that you figured this out. But why did you not consider this sooner? Wouldn’t it have been obvious that you would have to have the phone unlocked and that having a police person have any access to an unlocked device would be a real problem?
What’s obvious to you may not be obvious to other people?
Likewise, what’s obvious to you at one moment may not be obvious to you at another, simply because you’re thinking about the situation from a different angle.
We have that app and I never give my phone to anyone. Nobody asks me for it, not even the cops. They just note the details and take it with them.
Oh, and the cops don’t care about your photos or messages when all you’ve done was exceed speed limit by 10km/h.
In normal countries
Police in the US have admitted that traffic stops are just a way to search people and find bigger charges. Cops like that are absolutely nosing around your phone.
Lets not bring that capitalist dystopia to a discussion about functional countries.
Germany in the meantime: „leftist extremism is threatening the democratic system“ [quote from the constitution protection agency] while fascist crimes outnumber them 5 to 1. All that while the EU keeps trying to sneak chatcontrol by us through the backdoor, again and again.
I dont have that much hope for our world tbh.
TBF, Germany has been one of the countries often opposing Chatcontrol, so there’s at least that.
Do you have a link for the 5:1 fash vs commie crimes? Not doubting, just want to read more.
Check the site https://verfassungsschutz.de/
There you have sections leftist and fascist extremism and numbers to go along. Leftist crimes are around 4k, fascist around 23k iirc in the recent past (2023)
In the US they need probable cause. Just leave your window rolled up and give them the finger when they knock. They’ll puff and shout, but eventually they’ll let you through. Be sure to film it and make it clear you’re filming
They really won’t though. I’m going to believe the body cam footage of them breaking windows and hauling people out of cars over edited YouTube footage.
Not in Australia where it is illegal for the police to touch your phone.
They can compel you to reveal your password without a warrant but can’t touch your phone? Is that a state law?
Dont we have a right to a lawyer and to not self incriminate? Surly they need a court order to compelled u to reveal ur password?
https://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca191482/s3la.html
It does require a court order, but notably you do not need to be suspected of a crime.
Dont we have a right […] to not self incriminate?
Not that I’m aware of, but if you find otherwise, let me know!
It requires a magistrate to issue an order at least. But yeah seems we are fucked. Is there any way one could devise a method to which it is literally impossible for you to provide said information if u dont want? Like could u tie unlocking to somthing they cannot legally compell u to do without violating ur human rights?
You can pin the app (android) or have it in guided access mode (ios). Although, yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an exploit to get out and access memory it shouldn’t. Maybe if you install the govt spyware app in a different user profile (Android) then it will be restricted to that certain memory.
Either have a cheap second hand sim less phone just for that or carry the physical I’d or perhaps a copy of the physical id.
You’re absolutely right about the danger of giving up your phone, if the police wanted to take it from you. By sticking with traditional documents you remove any pretense they might have to try. It is not a stupid call, it’s just less convenient - but then, security is always a compromise with accessibility.
They went as far here in Ukraine as making some services exclusive to those who have the app. The official government app for digital documents and services, Diia, also has stupid integrity check, which makes it unable to be installed from Aurora Store, which makes me cut out from such services, because I don’t have Google Services installed. By the way, there are Google trackers in the app.
Yeah, welfare here is mostly app/phone based. You can technically get around it, but it requires visiting a dwindling number of centres very regularly and waiting in long queues.
The IRS (tax authority) in the US has Google trackers loaded into the DOM including pages listing your Social Security number too, yikes.
that’s odd. in south africa while we don’t have a digital license the physical ones do have a code. they scan the code and that’s it. they never take the license unless they asking for a bribe.
They don’t need to take your phone with them. They literally can just scan the code, because it sends all the info to their screen, that they were gonna look up anyway.
No way the government implemented an app for this use case. That’s extremely inefficient.
I thought you actually tried, that they took your phone?
Couldn’t these apps also use the Android/iOS’ wallet manager which allows handing it over unlocked while the phone is “closed” (not necessarily locked, though…)?
I don’t know if they could, because they will probably compromise all information into the wallet.
But it’s a good idea. I hope that it can be implemented like you said in a secure way.
Illinois at least passed a law to limit the consent given when using a digital ID with a police officer such that they’re ONLY allowed to use it for ID and not snooping, but that’s the only state to do so.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/10/should-i-use-my-states-digital-drivers-license
But do you trust them to follow the law? I certainly don’t.
No, se facessero cosi basterebbe che tu toccassi il bottone di blocco mentre glielo passi… A ripetere fino alla nausea.
No credo che la realtà sia differente: cosi ti invogliano ad avere l’app IO installata sul telefono… Semmai è quello il cavallo di troia.
Nah, I’ll just carry my ID card around.
Not a fan of those either, but Android offers something called app pinning (or at least GrapheneOS and probably also LineageOS iirc), basically something like retail mode where only one app is accessible and the rest of the device stays locked.
your phone isn’t safe from anyone unless it’s been restarted since last unlocked, and is reasonably new. they have exploits for after it’s been unlocked incl while things are pinned
That’s cute but as a rule when dealing with the government, physical access is root access
Pretty sure they’re not supposed to take your phone. The point of a digital document is that you don’t have to hand in anything. Scan the QR code and they can run as many background checks on the data they want. You’ll still have your phone.
Not supposed to != wont. Police regularily do things that they arent supposed to and as long as people naively consent by giving their phone they can get away with whatever they want i would think.
Then sue them. You have the right.
Good luck lmao
In my country you cant Sue, only complain. But you complain to the instance you complain about. Eg police is handling complaints about the police. Besides that. For most people sueing isnt something you just do
Of course you can. You said you live in Europe.
Unless you live in Russia or the Vatican, that means your country has signed the European Convention on Human Rights, of which article 8 commits it to respecting your privacy.
So, sure, you’re not going to bother suing. It’s not that important to you. But let’s go easy on the helplessness of “In my country you can’t do that”. Yes. You can do it.
Wonder why you are getting downvoted as this is a perfectly legitimate point. Are they just not in Europe or something?
Or who knows, they really could be in the Vativan, stranger things have happened. But I don’t know why they would mention those circumstances without qualification that they are special circumstances. Kind of burying the lede there.
