ITT: People who think “liberal” means any one single thing.
ITT: People who think “leftist” means any one single thing.
I mostly upvoted the meme for the energy.
“Liberal” can mean centrism, capitalism with a human face, capitalism with some socially progressive elements, etc.
“Leftist” can be anything from “liberal” (as the far-right likes to pretend left=evil), to any form of actual leftism, which also can range from libertarians to authoritarians, with the latter sometimes weirdly being pushed a lot by the right (Fidesz, the Hungarian far-right party masquerading as “moderate, center-right, christian democrats”, have paid off the election debts of Munkáspárt 2006, and now they’re one of their satellites).
I just want women to feel happy and realized without fear of oppression or the need to partake in political violence, but what the fuck do I know.
I feel that way about everyone.
Yep
I just want my “Thoughts and Prayers” to materialize without any effort.
Unfortunately we don’t get to live in that reality
So headscarves no matter what. Got it.
The difference is, they choose the balaclava.
I think the balaclava chooses them.
Sooooo… better start learning the words to Bella Ciao huh?
No, the Internationale!
With respect to The Internationale, that’s just not a banger like Bella Ciao is. If I’m thinking of ‘let’s oppose a fascist regime and/or do some Operation Gladio shit in 1970’s Italy while carrying submachineguns, dressed in leather jackets and balaclavas’, Bella Ciao is a much more appropriate choice for a modern era.
A lot of the versions of The Internationale that I’ve heard sound more like school plays. It’s not something one would describe as ‘rousing’.
Disagree. Watch Reds.
Did you say “do Gladio shit”? Like enlist fascists, virulent anti-communists that they are, to carry out terrorist attacks against civilian populations to then blame on communists in order to crush the influence of socialists in government and justify purges of socialists and communists from every sphere of life? That gladio shit?
The revolution will not be won by beautiful dead, tears in their eyes, clutching their rifles. It will be won by a political revolution of the working class for the benefit of all. There will certainly be fighting, of which the internationale sings about explicitly:
No more deluded by reaction
On tyrants only we’ll make war
The soldiers too will take strike action
They’ll break ranks and fight no more.
And if those cannibals keep trying
To sacrifice us to their pride
They soon shall hear the bullets flying
We’ll shoot the generals on our own side.
Once more into the breach
I agree that women are not going back “into the bottle” as it were. There definitely are females out there opposed to women’s rights (especially reproductive and career rights). They will be opposed by a greater number of women + the men who want women to meaningfully participate in society. A nation that refuses to take women seriously ends up cutting their potential leadership, ideas, production, and so on basically in half. Already we see women planning how they are going to resist misogynistic policies, and maybe they don’t need my support as a Canadian man but they’ve got it.
FEEEEEEMALES!!!
? Is that a trigger word for you or something?
Dude, like. No. Stop digging.
I have no idea what’s going on with either of your responses (digging into what exactly?), but ok.
I’ll bite. Referring to women as “females” is usually used by incels. Women, ladies, those are your safer bets.
Well, thank you for clarifying at least. I’m not changing the wording. Let me be clear, I’m definitely not blaming you for being helpful - I appreciate at least knowing. However, if someone reads my post supporting and valuing women and the thing they comment on is the word “female” as if that makes me an incel misogynist, then I don’t really care. I wrote a post in this thread about the radicalization of men, and I used the word “male” 4 times. 31 upvotes, no downvotes (at time of posting) and no one had issue with “male”.
If I get downvoted for it so be it. I support women and I never ever use the actually pejorative terms, but I’m not stopping using the word female. Incels use the word “women” too all the time btw. There’s even the famous coffee meme that uses the word “women” and I hate it because I’m a gamer and it’s always used in gamer communities to mock women.
I’m a gamer
Yeah, saw that one coming.
Anyway, you can say “female” as an adjective all day. It’s the noun that has really icky nonhuman connotations.
Your moral high ground eroded when you vociferously said it was everyone else who was wrong about the current connotation of the word.
coffee meme?
There definitely are females out there
The use of “females” here is objectifying, and generally frowned upon. Here’s a way to avoid this mistake in the future: replace “females” with the word “people” and if it works grammatically and in the context of what you’re saying (eg, you’re not talking about animals) then you should be using “women” instead of “females.”
Thank you for clarifying, I appreciate it. I didn’t know that, but I’m not going to stop using the word “female” for reasons I put in another post just above.
“Thanks for explaining why using this word in that way is problematic and makes the people it is attempting to describe uncomfortable, but I don’t actually give a shit and will continue to use it regardless” 🙄
I’m not telling you to stop using the word altogether, just trying to help you understand why some uses are inappropriate and will garner ire from others. It’s fine if you want to say “well that’s their problem” but alternatively you could try to have some empathy. Broadly speaking, being considerate of others rarely requires anything of you, and helps make the world a better place.
But if that’s asking too much, I understand.
Edit to add: this applies to the usage of “males” and “females” equally. By continuing to use this terms inappropriately, you’re not somehow promoting equality, you’re just being stubborn about using hurtful language.
Both can exist.
Yeah, and isn’t the series as a whole about her trying to go from A to B?
Yeah that’s the point - the two pictures show two types of people who both exist.
To me this is the right answer. Both always exist. I think people’s propensity to believe the oppressed will definitely pick up arms in the face of oppression are kidding themselves.
40% of voting women support trump
Y’all are delusional
40% of voting women support trump
Necessarily that means most voting women did not vote Trump.
Except the fact that the women supporting maga is more likely to be gun nuts than the women supporting harris. They also have the military in control once Jan 20 comes.
We ain’t winning. They will massacre us. The US will have its own Tiannamen Square.
That’s a great point, women go by guns. An unarmed leftist is a vulnerable leftist.
Good point. It’s like keyboard justice warriors ranting about racism compared to actual BLM marchers.
BLM marches and activism happened all over the world because of “keyboard warriors” spreading the word.
srsly taking credit? wow
So are you saying liberal is law abiding while lefties is a violent militia?
“If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.”
- Thomas Jefferson
Were the people who fought against the rapid corruption and authoritarianism of Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and Stalin-era Russia unjust for refusing to obey the laws that told them to kill Jews, Chinese and anarchists?
Were the slave abolitionists in America wrong for freeing slaves, by illegal means? Were women who pushed for greater bodily autonomy by disobeying sexist laws incorrect?
It is your moral duty to resist any law that imposes an unjust inequality to anyone and everyone.
There you go, a call for insurrection, just like the right did when they lose. But ohh this one is done for good where the unjust haven’t even started yet. The progressive lawmaker is working hard to trump-proof their state while the lefties is looking for insurrection. Lot of self own within america lately.
Yes, liberals uphold systems of oppression while leftists break them. Very good little one.
Ohh so you mean lefties deliberately not voting, which is breaking the system that lefties believe is oppressive, and then allowing the fascist to rise to power, then call for insurrection?
Last i heard lefties are the one calling for protest vote or no voting. You want me to believe they’re the righteous one?
it’s called accelerationism
A) Fascists were already in power. They are currently committing genocide.
B) Yes, doing the only thing that might stop a genocide within our lifetime was a left wing action, and yes its righteous. Maybe don’t commit genocide next time.
Fascists were already in power. They are currently committing genocide.
And i didn’t see the fight to take back the power from the government. So yeah i’m eagerly waiting for absolutely nothing to happen in the future.
You did, but you probably called them annoying and celebrated the militarized police clearing out the camps.
But that’s okay. We forgive you.
Wow, the fight haven’t even started and you’re already certain you guys will lose lol. Definitely nothing will ever happen.
The fight started before you were born, and will continue long after you die.
Yes, Liberals are whiny little cowards while leftists are the people who will actively fight back. I personally see nothing wrong with some good economic sabotage and militias.
Ohh yes, whiny little coward that go out and vote while the brave leftists sitting at home protesting the choice they have to made which in return allowing fascist to be voted in which then they whine about fascist being voted in and threaten violence. Bravo, lefties, bravo.
I’m not sure who you are talking about, I voted for Kamala. However, the difference between me and a liberal is im more then happy to take direct action. I’ll do whatever it takes to fight fascism both with the ballet box and the cartridge box.
You’re not the only lefties in US, there’s plenty of lefties saying they’re not voting.
As someone in left wing circles most leftists only pretended not to vote to put pressure on Kamala, in the end most of them voted for her
the difference between me and a liberal is im more then happy to take direct action. I’ll do whatever it takes to fight fascism […] with the ballet box
in left wing circles most leftists only pretended not to vote
Not sure if you can have it both ways. How do you take “direct action at the ballot box” while also only pretending to withold your vote?
The idea was that leftists could apply pressure by threatening to withhold their vote, in retrospect it was a flawed idea but I understand why leftists did it. In the end they mostly voted anyway for Kamala, some voted third party but not a significant amount of people did.
Lmao, aren’t guns too dangerous for y’all?
For leftists? I think you should read some history lol
And here I thought the left wanted more gun control, since it seems to be so important to them
That’s because your media is lying to you about who the left is.
Not really, I mostly base my views on my experience on lemmy
It was. But there’s a social contract being violated, here.
Also, the guys in the photo above? their rights to own guns were tramped out by that notorious liberal pinko commie Ronald Reagan, because as it turns out, they aren’t for the freedom to bear arms, just the freedom for people they like and feel are on their side to bear arms.
If the Panthers started up again, you can bet all the second-amendment types would be begging for gun control in five minutes.
LOL. many of us practice and own guns, we just don’t make it our entire personality.
I’m not talking about that, and ffs loosened gun regulation was one of the biggest agendas of the Trump campaign… not so much for the Democrats of took a 180 approach
You are mistaken about who wants gun control.
The left should have taken that tune before Trump
Marx said that in 1850 lol
Man being unironically Anti-gun is so cringe. Like really if you’re anti-gun you almost certainly believe that people shouldn’t be allowed to defend themselves and therefore should instead rely solely on the police for their own protection, because that’s who you’ll rely on now if you can’t defend yourself.
Keep thinking that.
Honestly I think the idea that we’re anti-gun is projection by right-wingers who are anti-gun because they want police and government to have more control. They won’t admit it though because they believe that they should have guns to fight against us, but if they beat us, I guarantee they’d show their anti-gun side more prominently.
I will
On Monday, I was a liberal. On Wednesday, I became a leftist. I will not let my country slide into fascism without fighting back. I have a 73 year old mom who’s married to a woman. That woman is one of the most important people in my life. I’m 51 and have known her since I was 19. If anyone comes for them, there will be bloodshed.
Same here. I have a lot of people I care about in my life in the LGBTQ+ community. I’m armed and ready.
Since you’re a new Leftist, I think you might be interested in my Read Theory, Darn it! introduction to Marxism reading list targeting new leftists. Let me know what you think if you check it out! Getting armed is a good first step, the next is to read theory and get organized with your fellow comrades!
Not a new leftist myself, but I very much appreciate the post, and love what you’re doing. Plus, that gives me a couple more books to read. Cheers!
Subscribe to this channel and join us!
❤️
Solidarity, comrade.
welcome welcome.
I guess I have trouble groking the difference between “liberal” and “leftist”.
Could someone summarize?
None of the answers you’ve received are really correct.
Liberalism has a specific meaning in political science. Modern Liberals support market economies, strong individual rights, and the right to own private property (not personal property - private property means capital).
I’m going to use socialism as a proxy for Leftism broadly because Socialism + Anarchism is too broad. Socialism is a political philosophy characterized by public ownership of capital (aka the means of production). That is the primary thing that binds leftists together.
Leftists view Liberalism as an improvement over feudalism, the system that it replaced, but criticize Liberals for protecting the status quo of neoliberal capitalism and the injustices, inequities, and evils it has perpetuated. They also assert that any Social Democratic reforms Liberals champion are ineffectual at addressing the core problems with capitalism.
The reason that the leftists in the meme have guns is because Leftists have historically been violently opposed to fascism and have engaged in revolutions to overthrow feudal, liberal, and fascist regimes.
Modern Liberals support market economies,
Only partly true. Liberals support capitalist markets, but not worker owned markets (worker co-ops, market socialism.)
Yeah that’s a fair point
Modern Liberals support market economies,
That’s a very diplomatic way of saying liberals are pro-capitalism and pro-imperialism.
No because a lot of it is bullshit people just drawing lines in the sand of an already silly way to plot political stances.
The truth is all liberals should be leftists. Politics leans left and right and people are broken down from there.
Currently people use the term “leftist” in too many ways but generally it suggests being against the system or capitalism. A liberal or liberalism is easy to Google but usually people mean it as left leaning folk who buy into the system, capitalism or neoliberal politics.
Just because you don’t know what words means doesn’t mean no one does.
Lmfao it’s literally in the names but okay.
A Liberal was a supporter of laise faire capitalism, currently a Liberal is more of a socially minded progressive. The term changed and will continue to change.
Leftist is literally a left leaning individual that’s it. People use it a word to lump together a lot of groups especially those with a more socialist or anarchist sort of mindset. The term changed and will continue to change.
So no, they really don’t mean anything exactly and people use them different and unclearly all the time. A liberal is a leftist, even if individuals out there reject that. Politically speaking you’re either right or left leaning, are you thinking liberals are right leaning? No. Then they’re leftists lol.
The worst thing for the socialist movement are other socialists. This probably can be said about any left leaning group. Everyone has to have a different title to differentiate their leftism from other leftists
Dumb people, lol
The left starts at anti capitalism.
Beyond that, for this meme, liberals are guilty capitalists the same way a Catholic porn addict is a guilty Catholic. They’ll feel bad about homelessness, and spend billions “fixing” homelessness but never address the root cause… As that would interfere with their addiction. They’ll feel terrible about drug addicts existing and spend billions “fixing” it by selling them different drugs and for profit rehab… But will never address the root of the problem. Liberals feel awful about x, but will never solve x of it interferes with capital. It’s why they love rainbow capitalism, they get to feel good about finally doing the right thing… While making profit.
Leftists want to solve the problem, no matter the cause. They don’t support gay people because it’s cheap, easy, and allows for profit; they do it because all people have inherent rights. They don’t want to build all inclusive, hyper expensive, heavily monitored and limited access housing for the homeless, they just want to build homes and ensure those effected have food and water.
Liberals are not left wing. Socially they only hold a vague mirage of left wing ideals as long as it doesn’t harm capitalism. Economically, they’re as right wing as any conservative or fascist. Fun fact fascism has only ever sprung from liberals.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_fascism
It has its up and downs as an accusation but ask Eastern Europe if they agree with the broad concept.
Leftists want full auto space communism.
Liberals want rights and liberties for all.
Both can overlap or not depending.
Liberals want rights and liberties for all except for the impoverished and repressed labour that makes liberalism possible.
FTFY.
Neolibs maybe. Not typical libs
People gave answers but not very succinct ones.
Short answer liberals are the leftmost of the centrists, leftists are actually left of that.
And as others said, whether they like capitalism is the line delineating them, for the most part.
Short answer liberals are the leftmost of the centrists,
Liberals are not “centrists.” They are right-wingers. If you are pro-capitalism, you are a right-winger. It doesn’t matter how “nice” liberals try to pretend to be about it.
No ifs, ands or buts.
I’m the good kind and those idiots are the bad kind.
Leftists HATE capitalism. They want to replace it altogether with some alternative economic system (market socialism, planned economy or a combination of the two) depending upon the type of leftist. Differences in leftists also exist based on the HOW of replacing capitalism (violent revolution, democratic reformation and so on).
Liberals ARE NOT leftists. Liberals believe that capitalism, with all its flaws is still the least bad economic system. They recognise some flaws of the free market and think that capitalism must be regulated to a certain extent by the government.
So again, all leftists HATE capitalism. Liberals dislike a free market, but think that regulated capitalism is the least bad form of governance.
Note: I know you didn’t ask this, but just wanted to clarify - capitalism ≠ market. There’s a large group of leftists called “market socialists” who want a market without the means of production owned privately.
That’s kinda iffy. Liberals are still on the left, why should leftist be delegated only to democracy haters? It’s basically making a special definition that isn’t used on any common level
That’s a horrible misunderstanding of liberalism and leftism. Socialism is more democratic than Capitalism because it extends democratic control to production itself.
Ronald Reagan was a neo liberal. Would you consider him a leftist?
Also, leftists are not democracy haters. Different groups of leftists have different stances on democracy. Anarchists for example, hate the idea of a state altogether (doesn’t matter if it’s democratic or not). Market socialists want to expand democracy in the economic sphere as well, with the help of cooperatives (be it worker, consumer, hybrid and so on).
Marxist Leninists are a group of leftists that you could say are anti democracy (in the context that you are referring to). MLs believe that a revolution must be led by a vanguard party, i.e., a group of intellectuals, and smart people who truly understand Marxist theory. This vanguard party would form a state, create material conditions for democracy (educate the uneducated, or people brainwashed by capitalists). After the material conditions are created, you can achieve democracy and all associated nice things. Remember, this is in the context of violent revolutions, like the ones that took place in Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba and so on.
NOW, I am NOT a Marxist Leninist. I do not condone their ideas. I will not expand upon my own ideas, as that goes beyond the scope of this discussion. The point is, not all leftists are anti-democracy. Most leftists active politically at least in the west are incredibly pro-democracy, want to expand democracy or are anti state altogether (democratic or otherwise).
So which ones don’t want abortions to be banned because Romans nailed a guy to a cross?
Liberals and leftists both don’t want encroachment of the state into personal matters. Of course, there are exceptions to this rule.
Now, what we refer to as the “far right” wish for expansion of the state for “moral policing”, to conserve traditional values and so on. That includes banning abortions.
Yup. While left and right are vastly different, one thing that’s consistent between them is “[whatever] is not evil when WE do it.”
You find hypocrites in all groups. That’s what I meant when I referred to exceptions. However, if u look at raw ideology, liberals and leftists don’t want to encroach in personal matters, while conservatives most definitely do.
That’s not my experience at all - I see freedom-loving conservatives constantly propose to restrict freedoms, and liberals constantly criticize the imperfections in each other’s liberalness. “Live and let live” is a very rare attitude.
Liberal plays by the established rules.
Leftist revolts and fights back.
To me, a leftist is someone who looks at the status quo and goes this is fucked up. We need to fix it.
A liberal looks at the status quo and goes “this isn’t this bad.” Think Bill Clinton or Tony Blair. Politicans who continued to maintain the status quo after their conservative predecessors.
If a leftist politician served after a conservative politician. The leftist politician would be like “fuck this” and upend the status quo.
I thought liberalism literrally meant that personal freedoms are the most important thing to that person and the belief is the government should not restrict them and needs to actively protect them.
That’s one of their beliefs, sure. However, their economic beliefs are still kinda pro capitalism.
What you are saying is only applicable for North America/ Europe. Liberalism is already the status quo there, which is why liberals defend it. However what is liberalism in the first place?
Liberalism: “Regulated capitalism is the least bad economic system. Also, the state shouldn’t encroach upon the personal matters of an individual.”
Leftists: “Capitalism is the cause of all problems. Fuck capitalism. The eventual goal should be to have a stateless, classless society. However, we disagree quite a lot on how to achieve this goal. This goal is called communism. Some of us say that we should do a violent revolution. Some of us believe that we can abolish capitalism using democratic processes. Some of us believe that to achieve communism, we need a temporary powerful state led by smart people, intellectuals, etc. to achieve material conditions necessary for communism. Some of us believe that the previous idea is absolute dog shit, and instead, we can achieve communism slowly, using non state actors like cooperatives, unions, syndicates and so on.”
Conservatives: “Capitalism is good. The morals and traditions of our ancestors were better than the ones coming up now, and deviating from them would cause a lot of harm. We need to take steps to conserve these ideas.”
Fascists: “All problems in society are because of group X. We need to get rid of group X by either converting them to our ways (if possible), deporting them from our borders, or cleansing our country of them entirely by killing them. Democracy is a slow and inefficient process. We should give power to a strong, smart leader who can get things done a lot more efficiently.”
Sounds like conservatism in the US needs to be relabeled as regressivism.
Not a visual learner eh.
After the French Revolution, they arranged the seats in the legislature with the most progressive on the left, and the most conservative on the right.
This left-right axis is often still used in modern politics.
On the American politics version of this spectrum, “liberal” defines those in the center who are in the middle and who accept whatever they are given. Leftist progressives fight for a better future.
Okay liberal
Liberal is the opposite of authoritarianism. Left politicies are less capitalism and more socialism. What America calls Liberal is more authoritative than what should be considered central party. Like in the political compass “Liberals” are middle middle top right, while “conservatives” are upper middle top right.
Liberals die on their knees, leftists die standing.
Yeah you have no clue that women actually side with capitalism all day every day
Liberal and leftist are both very vague terms with several definitions that place them both in very different places in the political spectrum.
You should just use other, clearer terms.
I see leftist as Revolutionary. The resistance. Quite honestly, I loved nazi hunter stories growing up and stories of the resistance movements and operations to smuggle the vulnerable to safety. I will be a part of it this time around.
What is so vague about them?
They seem perfectly clear-cut to me.
Some people think liberal is right-wing, just not extreme (for example, liberal party of Quebec)
Some people think liberal is centrist. (For example, liberal party of Canada)
Some people think liberal is some sort of wide category including everyone left of center.
As for leftist, some people think it means anything left of center.
Others think it means left-wing, but more so than center-left.
Others yet think it refers only to the most left-wing of political opinions, including communists, anarcho-communists, and adjacent ideologies.
And even “center” is a vague term to begin with. What passes as center in the US is decidedly right-wing in other countries.
Some people think liberal is right-wing, just not extreme
What can possibly be more extreme than being pro-capitalist? Even a fascist can be made to admit that there is more to water than merely it’s market value.
And even “center” is a vague term to begin with.
That’s the whole point of “centrism” - vagueness. You can hide all kinds of right-wing garbage under “centrism.”
These terms are rather well understood by leftists, it’s only liberals who think they mean the same thing.
No, conservatives think that. Liberal doesn’t mean what leftists desperately want it to mean; neoliberal
Conservatives, liberals, and neoliberals are all just subtypes of the classical liberal.
You forgot progressives, too.
