Why does he need to be defended? Does he actually contribute to the issues he is concerned with in any way that doesn’t also benefit his brand? How would any streamer, regardless of their professed politics, be worth anything to a revolutionary process? Why is he not a mere spectacle?
Because he is a reasonable voice in media.
As the Chinese call him ‘regular IQ American’.
As a US-based commie, I think we have such a long row to hoe in terms of developing class consciousness here. Decades of propaganda plus comfortable living conditions based on exploitation of people and the environment make even suggesting a socialist alternative to people makes them look at you like you have a horn growing out of your head. Hasan does good work in normalizing these ideas among young people, thus making positive contributions to developing class consciousness. Someone who isn’t as “pipeline-friendly” but more ideologically pure probably wouldn’t have a fraction of the viewers Hasan has.
Also, while I think the “crisis of masculinity” in young men is overblown, the reality is that the right wing has an entire ecosystem of people like Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson who can sell young men on a false idea of a very unhealthy masculinity, and it’s been incredibly effective at pushing them to reactionary politics. Hasan is a great antidote to that as I think he (and others - I think Mamdani embodies this as well) provides a more positive version of masculinity that in itself I see pushing men leftward.
I agree. I am just skeptical of the whole streaming complex. I’m skeptical you can really learn revolutionary things primarily from a screen and even though we know there has to be more there often isn’t. But in the meantime I suppose it doesn’t salt the soil the way the neo fascists obviously can.
How does Hasan sell a “positive version of masculinity”? If anything he falls into the same trappings as other “positive” role models do
He wouldn’t need to be defended if he wasn’t consistently attacked. The real question is why does he need to be attacked?
In terms of being a pipeline, he’s definitely not pushing his audience to the right. He’s not pushing them toward the dead-end false-left Democrats either. He actively speaks against both of those groups. And then he makes his viewers aware of efforts like The Deprogram.
It’s literally the definition of the mouth of a pipeline. His content is mild enough for the the capitalists who control all the modern public fora to allow him to draw in huge viewership numbers, and that viewership has its overton window shifted left enough for them to discover further-left materia that they otherwise would never have known existed.
At worst he’s inconsequential, at best he’s feeding left. To the real left. There’s no opportunity cost to him doing his thing. His chat is a cavalcade of lumpenproles and kids spamming ‘top kek’ and ‘goated’ and pepe emojis. They’re certainly not moving left on their own.
The opportunity cost is that we waste time on streamers, corporate discourses, and it often centers imperial actions instead of the futures we actually need to figure out how to make. But I agree that if we are going to basically give people pacifiers that they should had least not be laced with poison.
Has he reacted to Mamdani disingenuously attacking Cuba and Venezuela yet? All I see online is him glazing Mamdani 24×7
I don’t know but your question does add to my skepticism of what streamers, even the less toxic and ostensibly revolutionary ones, are actually doing for us. Discourse feels so hopeless right now. A lot of people are in denial about the severity of what’s happening and when I see folks caught up in streamer drama it makes me feel a deep sense of impending doom.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say “I used to watch Hasan and then started reading lenin and now here I am”. I have heard that with the deprogram, through the subreddit which was highly commie and encouraged people to look beyond.
So I can’t agree that he forms a pipeline, and telling his audience to read lenin does not make one if they are not going to read lenin but keep watching him instead. Socdems are not communist and have never been.
I also think he gets a lot of leeway because he’s “on the left” that would not be afforded if he wasn’t so popular. I’ve said it before with mamdani; everyone on the right is taking appointments with him to get him on their side - zionists are talking to him, republicans are talking to him, Obama is talking to him, fundamentalist Christians are talking to him… The only people that refuse to steer him back left are socialists. We have stopped believing in self criticism.
We have stopped believing in self criticism.
Exactly! And things are only getting more dire. I remember at one point years back it became taboo to even discuss his wealth.
Can’t discuss his wealth, can’t discuss he went to a brothel in Germany, can’t discuss how he treats his dog, because apparently he says good things about Palestine and so he must be cherished for that, as if he was the only person speaking on Palestine. The point of self-criticism is to improve a line. We are scared of losing or detaching ourselves from anyone who appears remotely left because we always feel on the defensive. This is not unique to the US, though it’s often the subject - this happens in Europe too. Eurocommunists and trots abound, and they get a pass (some trots) because “they’re moving things left”. But if you move 3 people left while preventing 100 from moving further at all (to give an illustrative example), then are you really helping? This is the kind of data I would prefer to rely on.
He doesn’t even have to say anything to address anything said against him anymore, as soon as something pops up it will be instantly dismissed by others for him. I’m just asking myself, is this how the CPC works? How the CPSU worked? “Yes Xi is embezzling funds despite his anti-corruption campaign, but he’s just too big to fail. Think of everything else he’s done for us!” I just can’t see it happening and we have to be serious communists in our entire life, i.e. both online and offline, if only for ourselves.
The crux of the matter is we are on the defensive because we don’t feel anywhere we can act. But it’s up to us to seize the moment, without asking for permission first. I know it’s easier said than done, but if Hasan is to be part of a pipeline then it’s also on us, the communists, to seize on that. Don’t leave people stew on streams and wait for them to somehow make their way somewhere, reach out to them. Show them there exists something beyond the first step. This is why I mentioned r/thedeprogram, I’ve vetted hundreds of people online (real credentials I know lol) and many of them said they listened to one of the three deprogrammers, then went to the subreddit, then went further left - and then I/we get them further left into Lemmygrad and ProleWiki. This is also why it’s important to have a strong line, though I realize of course you won’t really have a party line online and people will naturally drift towards their own opinions, hence (probably) why Hasan refuses to understand the problem with visiting a brothel in Germany. The other problem is things never fully live in the past online even if you’ve changed as a person since that time. There is an argument that it was 5 years ago and he can’t dwell on it.
Anyway, maybe that pipeline happens in his twitch chat and that’s cool. I think some people link theory there, I’m not sure if it was him or someone else. I’ll be completely honest, I don’t really have the patience to go watch entry-level streamers. I have many things I could say about this but the relevant one is ultimately they’re just presenting their one view, and I know a lot of people are going to adopt these opinions as their own just because their streamer says it. But a line is forged through crit and self-crit, it must be submitted to others to be discussed, critiqued, refined and ultimately a third, new thing appears that did not exist anymore (you can see it as the Aristotlean dialectic, thesis-antithesis-synthesis, with the synthesis not being a recap of the 2 elements but a completely original thing).
One last thing - if we don’t expose people to marxism and the verbiage, then they will never pick up on it. Nobody comes up with the bourgeoisie by themselves, understandably. If we did we wouldn’t be reading Marx. We “disdain to conceal our aims” because doing so dilutes theory. We call it the bourgeoisie because it means a specific thing, not ‘capitalists’ because that word means a lot of different things. To be pre-emptive, I’m all for starting out simply with the stuff that makes sense to newcomers, but at some point you have to get them in deeper if they are to learn the material. This goes for all things; scientists call things by their names, not by euphemisms.
So I can’t agree that he forms a pipeline
Well, here’s his yearly viewer census.
Socialist is a broad term and I don’t think this data is so clear cut because socialist grew by 10% in just 6 months in 2020 then tapered off. To me this shows rather that his audience is renewing, based on this graph.
Ok, well now you have. I used to watch Hasan, then started reading lenin. Now hear I am. He encourages people to go outside and organize, so I now spend significantly less time online. I have met many others in my org who did the same.
I hate the term pipeline anymore because everyone views it as a literal pipe. That’s there’s just one link leading to the next. When it’s more like a network leading from one side to another. The more channels, the better the flow.
It’s like, it’s like a swamp. You have dirty water coming on from all over. Some is far off and murky. Some is just rain water falling near the end, but it all has to pass through the swamp that filters and cleans it.
And Swamps, can be pretty gross. Nasty stinking, terrible places to LIVE, but are great for the ecosystem. That’s what we actually have, a swamp, and as we progress through the swamp, things get cleaner and cleaner, but we won’t have the nice forests and clear streams at the end, if we don’t have all the nasty swamp bullshit at the other.
This is why I advocate against farther along leftists attacking some of the “murkier” parts of the swamp. It’s like, as an example, stupidpol shit. They are crude and offensive and say some dumb shit, but like, you aren’t going to get chuds even considering communism otherwise. Hell, I spent a lot of time in that community many years ago. Then I grew past it as I learned and grew. I used that community to turn a chuddy friend into a communist who sees China as the hope of Communism.
So, so long as some of those people “move through the swamp” to cleaner parts, then it’s doing it’s job. If we cut it down, drain it, then that water will never get clean. Same with the Dem socs, etc. not all “water” falls clean and pure from the sky.
Of course the problem becomes when we turn those filthier places into our homes. Water is meant to flow through a swamp, not sit in it forever. We have to watch out for damn and such. And some areas of the swamp is contaminated with “artificial pollutants.” Like Vaush types that are like a leaking oil pipe stuck in there. So obviously we have to keep an eye out for these things. The key point is identifying, is this person actually aiding in filtering people to the next level? Are they outputting cleaner water then what came in? If so, we should do what we can to support them, while still trying to bring that “cleaner but still dirty” water through the next level.
So yeah, that’s my thoughts on it. I guess I see Hasan as a part of the swamp doing some good work. Maybe? Idk. I have been typing and thinking about this for way too long now. Swamps are cool, or something. Thanks for tuning into my rambling.
My pipeline was through Hasan (however I’ve been a lefty my entire life), his subreddit had a pinned link tree with socialist resources where I found thedeprogram and then through that found lemmy. That said I’m not as big of a fan of him as I used to be, just grew out of it.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say “I used to watch Hasan and then started reading lenin and now here I am”. I have heard that with the deprogram, through the subreddit which was highly commie and encouraged people to look beyond.
I, on the otherhand, have heard it quite often. What i heard even more often is that Hasan is what led them towards second thought/deprogram in general, other left creators and then into actual theory.
So I can’t agree that he forms a pipeline, and telling his audience to read lenin does not make one if they are not going to read lenin but keep watching him instead. Socdems are not communist and have never been.
No one forms a pipeline alone. The pipeline is obviously not implied to be Hasan -> The State and Revolution as you seem to think. Hasan is the very first step towards radicalisation for many people including me and after him there were other content creators (german commies on youtube) and now i am getting into proper theory.
He is the streamer for libs that don’t even know what the word imperialism means. He is the streamer for the people that would get scared away if he were any more clear about his opinions.
I also think he gets a lot of leeway because he’s “on the left” that would not be afforded if he wasn’t so popular.
I don’t think people give him any leeway at all tbh. Every misstep or perceived misstep gets immediately put under a microscope by the left and then he gets called a socdem by some ultra-maoist or something.
Hasan doesn’t punch left, clearly leaves the door open and even encourages for people to go further down the pipeline.
I really enjoyed reading this comment. Thank you. Its great to get different and thoughtout perspectives on topics instead of just gut feeling or ones own thoughts. :)
I think he’s very valuable. He’s become more able to articulate Marxist theory over the year and he’s tuned in to mainstream lib shit enough to critique it from a more leftist lens. This isn’t to say most of his value doesn’t lie on the mere fact that he is one of the biggest streamers on the planet, but he’s hot and presentable and his politics aren’t terrible.
I add, I don’t watch him regularly. This massive smear campaign is obviously astrotrufed
I mean, even if the evidence is clear I still don’t think it matters. Yeah sure he trains his dog unethically to sit in front of his camera… He’s in love with himself, doesn’t really matter. As long as normies have a pipeline to a (debatably) ML creator, that’s going to do much more good in the long term. Plus if you eat meat you don’t really have a leg to stand on in the “animal cruelty” accusations.
Will say, I do find Hasan insufferable and I don’t watch his content but I think it’s good that he exists over not existing.
I think Hasan is just super strict and regimented. He says dogs need super strict routines without any deviation to be happy. Like yeah dogs need structure, but he’s overbearing with it for sure. Like he’s definitely autistic and some autistic people are extremely regimented and inflexible, so idk. Everyone around him that loves animals say his dog is pampered. But like, from what I know from American culture most people CAGE their dogs!! So just ordering his dog around and not letting her roam is pretty mild compared to that.
It depends on the people, the work schedule and any number of things.
How regimented you should be with your dogs, or caging them?..
I personally don’t think people should defend his poor behaviour and that the “online left” collectively deciding to hitch their bandwagon to Hasan years ago was a bad decision, but that’s just my opinion. Most people on the online left disagree with me on that one.
I’ll never watch a twitch politics steamer, sorry.
Idk anything about twitch stuff really but i have heard of the guy. Im curious. What bad behavior are you referring to? I thought all he did was sit in his room and talk over CNN videos and stuff.
Unfortunately, most of this “bad behavior” comes second-third hand from clipped out of context videos from the Destiny hate brigades
All the major anti-Hasan talking points can traced back to nonsense started by Vaush or Destiny as revenge for Hasan eclipsing them five years ago
For example one fake scandal involved Hasan supposedly visiting a German brothel in 2011 that was raided by feds for sex-trafficking, it was make believe, the brothel was the victim of police harassment and successfully sued, the raid took place years after Hasan visited, and he expressed mild embarrassment for going when he was 19
But because of destiny bots and vasuh cultists blew it up beyond proportions and lied, Hasan is still persona non grata in some liberal radfem circles, because “he’s a sex trafficker”
Leftists and liberals alike construct their own version of Hasan through hostile second hand sources and years later refuse to adjust their view, even while Hasan becomes one of the most prominent leftists in America
Oh ok so reactionary nonsense. That is what i expected of something involving western influencers. Thanks for letting me know.
He’s left adjacent entertainment and gives all of the vooooters hope that electoral solutions are still possible
His stream allows the politically impotent to feel like they’re making contributions to positive change
I understand why so many here and in general hold on to him as he’s the best we’ve got in the entertainment world, but the medium is the message, and his message is just another facet of the attention economy
Without judgment, look at how many people have him on in the background (he streams 8 hours a day of course people are not going to be attentive for the entire time). To understand the world you must struggle with the material, it doesn’t come about through osmosis
He used to be really important for spreading leftism nowadays in opinion his usefulness is outweighed by the danger he’s in and the hostility of twitch and the online sphere towards leftist creators
Probably the strongest leftist voice online that isn’t a complete pipeline for the Dems. He’s told his audience numerous times to read Lenin. Something I have never heard any Breadtube or Socdem darling like Bernie Sanders do.
Importantly, he doesn’t left-bash. Don’t have to agree with every take he has. The fact that he doesn’t shit on AES, encourages people to think positively of China, and encourages them to visit and explore “further pipeline” sources is good.
My worst fear comes is when he’s gone whose going to replace him
he has gone to and showcased a lot of major labor disputes/strikes and protests on his massive platform. twitch is a multibillion dollar company and he’s the largest politics streamer on the platform. im not gonna pretend to be his biggest fan but a casual viewer. so many normies find their way to him and generally speaking he’s a good ambassador to bring people into leftism. he’s pro china, openly says the Uighur genocide is made up which is a bold stance to openly take as im sure any of us have experienced people’s reactions to that
I don’t follow all this breadtube content or whatever people call it, and I don’t know that much about him, but I believe he functions as a pipeline for leftist ideas? A source of information or entertainment(?) for more nascent leftists, e.g. liberals who have been driven to gain consciousness as of late.
pretty much, yeah
he’s entry level leftism for the new kids on the block
which is good ofc
He is the largest left voice in the media. More people watch him than MSNBC.
MSNBC isn’t left.
Msnbc is far left, wtf? Rachel Maddow is still on
The farthest left MSNBC was was when Keith Olberman was still on, and they weren’t left then, either.
I was kidding about btw
Thank goodness 🫡😅
they didnt say msnbc is left, they said hasan is left and bigger than msnbc, which is why he is important
Ah that’s good.
i can see how you got it mixed up tho
🫡
yes. i’m just giving a sense of his reach since he covers the news.
Got it, thanks.
