It feel like we’re losing to Google, day by day. They aren’t killing AOSP directly, but they are making it useless step by step.
Now it’s Google Play Services, Play Integrity checks, installation source checks… more and more apps just refuse to run without GMS. Banking apps? Most of them don’t work. And it’s only getting worse. I run vanilla AOSP on my main profile, no Play Services. I keep GMS only in my work profile for the apps that absolutely need it. But now even some regular apps that don’t need any play services won’t work on my main profile anymore. They simply block your from running , like le chat.
Maps is google’s most important app there is no way to run without play services. Sure we can use webview or gmaps wv, but they don’t provide turn-by-turn directions. Earlier maps used to work without play services, but two years ago, an update stopped it from working. Now that old version is out of date and no longer works.
Google is slowly making GMS very important to run. The problem with GMS is they require to run as system app and has to have all the permissions by default.
Hope EU puts pressure to make google allow apps to run independently without GMS or atleast install them as user apps(like graphene os sandboxed play services).
If we keep going on like this, AOSP can only run fdroid apps in the future.
Would “containerizing” GMS in Android ever be possible? Like it’s running in a docker instance, almost.
Graphene OS does something similar. It sandboxes GMS like any other app
Then why don’t GMS apps work?
GMS apps work fine. The only ones that don’t work are ones that act invasively enough to notice they are sandboxed and disable themselves.
Mostly bank apps. Which is irritating, since they all have mobile friendly websites that work fine without needing to know my location and everything else about my phone.
What I was envisioning was a more “open” sandbox that feels like an entire (but barebones) phone, an imprecise location, things like that. But with the rest of the phone secretly shut out.
That’s a pretty good description of what GrapheneOS does with the sandboxed Google services.
I have found that the only apps that don’t work well with Samdboxed Google services are ones that work hard to invasively probe their runtime environment.
Thwy usually fall into these three categories:
- Bank apps that do it “for my safety”. Nevermind that a website version exists for attackers to target without the same (dubious, invasive) “protections”.
- Streaming apps that do it “because this paid subscriber might be some kind of dark web pirate and we need to protect our content from being uploaded to the dark web one more time.”
- Apps whose developers are shitty at writing code for memory management. But GrapheneOS has good options to allow these to run, anyway.
if u rely on GMS so much, have u tried replacing it with microG?
it works but it can be messy sometimes. it also doesn’t pass play attestation, which is the big problem here.
What will it take to make a phone that comes with GrapheneOS directly? I have access to some good connections in China, what phone spec could we prototype to have a phone coming with GrapheneOS? I am ready to throw my savings at starting this business. Or should I reach out to GrapheneOS people directly? (Lineage works also)
GrapheneOs is currently discussing some stuff with OEMs but more help wouldn’t hurt I bet.
As per my 30min research, GrapheneOS depends heavily on pixel internals, but I will highjack one of the mastodon posts maybe somebody will spoonfeed me the definitive answer.
I live in a very low cost area, hopefully I will manage to get a nameless phone to run GrapheneOS or LineageOS at low cost, forward most of the income to the open source projects.
It might be too naive but I am giving it a shot.
GrapheneOS is talking to OEMs to create a phone. Up to this point, they’ve only supported Pixels because they’ve had the best security. But with Android 16, Google stopped sharing important files that make it more difficult to continue supporting Pixels. Hence the desire to create their own device.
I believe it was also because Pixels were some of the only phones that allow properly relocking the bootloader, but I could be mistaken.
Thank you! GrapheneOS isn’t an option then, I will wait for their phone.
I guess I could still shoot my shot with LineageOS.
If you wanted to talk to the Graphene folks the best spot seems to be their matrix rooms rather than masto.
The GrapheneOs team is quite particular about hardware.
I would gladly purchase a phone that came preloaded with LineageOS.
“Better than we have now.” often wins over waiting for perfection.
Not either of those, but have you seen Brax3 phone?
Realistically, change your approach to how you use your phone.
A majority of apps are not actually apps. They are a web app packaged in an apk so they can get elevated permissions and more data. Dont download apps, instead just install them from your browser as the web app they are. This is far more secure and far less invasive as generally a web app is containerized, at least thats my understanding in regards to firefox.
Instead of google maps, explore the world of open source navigation apps. Osmand has worked great for me, and tends to provide better info so im not panic merging at the last second. Theres a lot of them out there, and google maps has stagnated for so long that many of them are caught up in features. While its not open source, ive sesn a lot of people praise Magic Earth as well.
Buy phones on the premise of being allowed to use a custom rom. As much as i dont want a pixel because it is google, graphene os is battle tested and much more secure than stock android. But theres also lineage OS, eOS, and a few others out there.
If you need google play services, containerize it. I keep all apps i dont want having special permissions on a work profile. Funnily, i also keep my work apps on that profile, so if google wants my works data then they can handle the lawsuit if something bad happens lol.
I think a lot of people have forgotten that phones are tiny computers. The only real difference is the cell network, but we already have devices that can use those networks that arent phones, so it isnt an exclusive feature to phones. Android can be forked, but also we can emulate android on linux and there are already linux phones out there. If we grow the linux space for phones, then we effectively lose nothing of value while gaining increased freedom. For now, change how you use your phone, and only download apps if you have no other choice.
Or just put your SIM card into a laptop running Linux and you’re good to go.
Yeah, stop using shitty googol.
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I’m not sure what the point of the post is? Is it to share frustration? Searching for a solution? Sorry, I may just not be good at inferring this, but I don’t get it.
IF you are in solution-finding mode, then there are a few things that you can do.
- You can use those banks that work without google. I’ve found 2 in the Netherlands, for example. One of them stopped working a while ago, I’ve wrote about that to their support and had to discontinue, withdrawing all my funds using a Dutch procedure for full withdrawal from a bank. After half a year or so I’ve noticed they’ve fixed it and work without google again. I’ve returned as well (it’s convenient for me to have 2 banks). I’m sure as hell banks watch for their usage statistics and wouldn’t like seeing people leave their bank if it can be fixed with a simple reversal of whatever the dev team did lately.
- You could try Linux phones such as PinePhone to see which use cases can it already cover. 30%? 70%? 90%? You’ll know what to even wait for in the Linux landscape to be able to switch. You’ll get a bit of power or mental control if you acquire this knowledge.
- Funnily, you can expect some good news coming from all those fights between US and China, because that makes a LOT of devices ship without google services. And some people in your county (I assume it’s not China, otherwise you wouldn’t have these problems) may have phones bought there, so you won’t be alone when pushing for such changes.
Can you elaborate which banks those were? Or you if is there is a curated list of banks that work on custom ROMs?
Dutch banks working without google are: BUNQ and ASN Bank.
BUNQ has the built-in QR scanning functionality broken (the one for iDEAL, if you’re living in NL you know), but that’s acceptable because it works to scan the QR in Binary Eye, which in turn opens the bunq app and the payment can be made easily.
ASN just works, all features that I’ve tried I think. (This one is only in Dutch though.)
Banks that I’ve tried few years ago and they didn’t work: ING, ABN AMRO, Rabonbank, Tridos, possibly few others that I forgot.
Also, lately I’ve started using some of those “international” ones, not so focused on NL. I’ve found that Wise (pure web, haven’t even tried their app) and Revolut (app) seem to work well on my de-googlified phone. Hope that helps!
EDIT: re-worded the first line of my message to be indexable by search engines, because that may be useful for future readers.
Thanks for the useful feedback.
Wise requires me to use the app as 2FA in order to log into their web interface. How do you log in without the app?
Thanks! I’m on ING now and every time i look it up for ING i get conflicting answers, Probably because it differs for each country they operate in (and people don’t always specify). I’ll look into the other ones.
Hi, I can add that Triodos works like a charm for me on a completely ungoogled /e/os And shoutout to @vas for actually telling banks and presumably other institutions that they need to be platform neutral or lose their custom. That’s my preferred way out of this mess. Goog luck ungoogling, everyone
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Linux phone operating systems aren’t ready for daily use yet, but they are being actively developed. https://linmob.net/
we’d still have to deal with locked bootloaders and adoption.
I can’t wait for when they are ready!
It’ll be awhile. They’ve been in a development state since the launch of the original pinephone in 2020. And even the pinephone is going to be unavailable in two years as pine64 is ceasing sales on it. Not trying to crap on devs. I bought two pinephones (Braveheart & Mobian bundle). Tested multiple distros and excitedly followed their progress for years. I never had a reliable working phone in that four year span. IMO SailfishOS and Post Market OS are the two most usable mobile distros. SailfishOS now requires an ongoing subscription to use which I don’t like.
Sailfish only needs a subscription to get updates, you can use it without a sub.
I use danctnix on my pinephone, which is basically arch. It does the basics, that’s about it. What’s missing is more convenient apps. Most of the stuff is catered to desktop.
Of all the OSes I tried, I liked ubports the best, but it was not updated and not all hardware worked iirc, and suffered the same problem of apps. At least arch gets updated constantly.
Actively developed sure but Linux phones are a solution looking for a problem. Who wants to run scaled down desktop apps on their phone and who wants a terminal on a phone either? I may be a Linux enthusiast but I want a phone that simply works.
A Linux phone doesn’t need to be, and definitely shouldn’t be, a scaled down desktop. There would obviously need to be some purpose built phone apps made, but I am pretty sure the existing Linux phones already do these, they aren’t really breaking new ground here. The whole point would be to have a workable modern phone that isn’t under Google or Apple’s greedy untrustworthy thumbs.
Have you acturally tried Postmarketos or any mobile Linux interface? I have and its just a scaled down Linux desktop.
I have used postmarketOS, and I thought the interface (Plasma Mobile) was OK, but could use some improvements. How long ago did you use it?
Edit: Now that I think about it, I think the last time I tried the Pinephone it was using Manjaro, not postmarketOS. I have used that before though, but you may want to give it another try as it is vastly improved IMO. That being said, the Pinephone itself still kinda sucks from a hardware perspective.
I’ll eventually try it on a pixel 3a
the problem is that google is capable of slurping all of your data and your phone becomes an enhanced avenue for access; the linux phones are the solution to this.
i’m convinced that the “it just works” mantra is the reason why google or apple or microsoft is able to do this sort of asshattery and i can understand why people would want something that simply works.
however, the trade off for this mantra is that you’re giving yourself over to a corporation that not only doesn’ t have your best interest at heart but has proven will happily sell your control for a penny.
i can also understand why someone wouldn’t think that any of this matters and; if you’re lucky; it won’t matter all, but for the rest of us unlucky sob’s (and the people who don’t want to put their faith in luck), linux phones matter.
I use GraphineOS, it already does that but more secure and with apps
That’s the point of the original post though. Google is starting to make development of these custom ROMs more difficult. If Google ever decided to lock down the bootloader for new Pixels, Graphene would be in a world of hurt. I also use GrapheneOS and love it, but who knows if it will be alive two or three years from now.
i was going to do this too, but none of my functioning androids are supported and i expect google to take another step in disabling alternatives.
I also run GrapheneOS, but I’d love to have a decent true Linux alternative that wasn’t tied to Pixel phones. Maybe I can even get my headphone jack back.
They’re actively trying to solve:
- e-waste and making devices last longer (contributing upstream)
- escaping data harvesting and surveillance
- offer an alternative to the mobile duopoly
I’m baffled that they even bother, given how much people complain about it not being good enough. But I’m glad they do, and I think it’s awesome.
Because they’ve yet to implement basic security features android had a decade ago and the interfaces are clunky, also once again who thought putting desktop apps on Mobile is a good idea?
They’re not a multi-billion dollar company. If you don’t like it, then don’t use it. That’s your choice.
But please stop talking nonsense about them not addressing real problems. Because they are. And they deserve credit for that. Not whining about the imperfections of a work in progress.
You dont have to be a multi billion dollar company to implement security features that exist in aosp, open source features based on freely available software that simply isnt implemented.
No, but it is going to take a considerable amount of time as they don’t have the manpower and resources of a multi billion dollar company.
GraphineOS didn’t start over from scratch for no reason nor did LineageOS so they dont need billions of dollars in funding, if you want to do everything youself then yeah its gonna cost that much.
Who wants to run scaled down desktop apps on their phone
I believe the UI of most apps could be made to work well with phone display sizes and resolutions.
and who wants a terminal on a phone either?
Well, I do! It’s great when you want to connect, do or automate something there isn’t an app for. For now I sometimes run Termux on Android. Among smartphone users in general I’m probably an edge case, but among Linux users, I must say, using a terminal on the phone doesn’t seem that crazy to me.
It doesn’t matter if they look ok (they still look out of place and feel wrong), the fact is they’re built with keyboards in mind. Hell even on phosh you’ll see keyboard shortcut indicators.
What stops anyone from making new GUIs, maybe even a new framework for doing that, optimised for touchscreens rather than keyboard and mouse?
Maybe I’m just unknowledgeable, but to me that idea doesn’t sound very far-fetched.
Because people keep defending the keyboard and mouse based mobile interfaces and as long as people and devs say its ok there will be no incentive to make proper mobile interfaces.
A single app can have separate interfaces for mobile and desktop. Mobile/Touch interfaces are uncommon right now because linux on mobile isn’t ready, and it is extra work to make a separate GUI.
We arent even close to developers considering implementing the frameworks to potentially start working on implementing that.
I highly reccomend comaps which has turn-by-turn directions and doesn’t require Google services.
But location services dont work without play services.
GPS works without play services but if you want more accurate location then you can turn this on.
Wow, supports Android Auto too!
You sure about this? I haven’t been able to get it, or any other maps app on GrapheneOS, to play nice with Android Auto.
Not at all, no! Just going off the support article that says it does. Only just installed it, will try it out with my car this weekend at the latest.
Please respond back if you can get it to work, navigation has always been a big sticking point with using GrapheneOS.
I run GrapheneOS and organic maps was working fine with android auto. You have to enter in developer options to allow third party apps tho. I was using it in a restricted profile with only proprietary apps (like banking apps). Comaps is a fork of organic maps so it should work too.
Were you running the version on Google Play or the one from f-droid? I have a suspicion that the Google Play version has some extra sliminess that allows it to work with Android Auto.
Yes I was running the Google Play version. AFAIK it doesn’t work with the version from FOSS platforms unfortunately. It was a few month ago. I got tired of it and ditched it altogether. I find that a phone holder does the job with much less hassle.
CoMaps is quite nice.
There are also still companies selling navigation devices that mount in a car windshield, assuming the car doesn’t already have one built in.
Pro tip - those navigation devices also often have an accident camera that records if it feels an impact - which is a good idea anyway.
transit routing still doesn’t work iirc, though gtfs stuff is in development
Linux phones won’t go anywhere, so you should probably donate to GrapheneOS and hope they have enough in the bank to fork android by the time it’s completely discontinued.
You can stop using Google and Apple… It’s that simple. But it seems that you, like many other, want their cake and eat it too…
Some countries allow the corpos to lock your device down when you delete it, and they have collaborated with the providers to disallow Open Source OS alternatives like Lineage. The only way I know of is to get a Pixel, which is still owned by Google, and then I think only one provider allows the after market OS to function on network. For those of us entering a dictatorship gov, it really sucks.
Well, then there’s a market for someone to crack…
If only there was someone that could afford as much lobbying as Google and Apple, we would have another parasite that was just as bad. Lets just get CB radios. Maybe morse code. God, what a shit show. This country is so fucked.
I believe it depends more on people-power, than on their wealth. That’s why they spend so much money on lobbying - it’s a testament to how scared they are.
I dont know if that indicates that theyre scared, its just part of the maintenance cost of their empires
You don’t spend money on something that you don’t get profit from. That’s just plain logic. They know, if they don’t keep spending money here, some politician would end their monopoly.
Of course. Im just saying i dont believe theyre scared because they know they will continue to have more than enough money for lobbying. Its probably very cheap in comparison to what they get out if it. Any business has necessary maintenance costs
It’s different for every one, but for me it would mean, I can’t use Microsoft authenticator, so I can’t do my job anymore, as it is required to access my mail, teams, files, logging worked hours, etc etc.
I can’t use any of my bank apps anymore, I can’t use my phone anymore for paying in a store or checking in public transportation.
And many more apps that would stop working.
Tell your employer to provide you a corpo phone.
You shouldn’t be using personal device for anything related to your job imho
I do freelance work, so they would just tell me to get it myself. But I really don’t want to have multiple phones. In don’t use teams or mail on my phone anyway, only the authenticator apps (we have multiple).
That’s fair.
Sure but what’s a viable alternative for normies? It would be simple if a viable alternative existed. For normies, I reiterate.
It’s to do the grass root movement, and get enough to demand it, for a provider to feel the need to expand their customer base that way…
Normies don’t care about that. They care about WhatsApp, Instagram and tiktoks.
Until they don’t… and please don’t call then normies, when they really are manipulated…
Normie is not an insult or derogatory. It just means “normal person”, who is usually not very tech savy.
Most Normies don’t care about privacy. They know, accept and are ok with their data being collected and sold in “free” services.
Quite a comfortable way to do this is with grapheneOS. That really gives you a choice. Can’t say much about each and every app, how they run. Although most of my usage hasn’t changed much with grapheneOS as I changed from gsm-free custom ROMs. Works quite good with a nextcloud.
how is that even possible?
How it’s possible to stop using google or apple? By doing it…
You have accurately identified a major part of the problem. Many people are unwilling to change their habits, or don’t have the patience to learn new tools.
The other element though is time, many people don’t have the time to stop and learn. Especially when a problem like privacy is a lot less immediate than hunger or healthcare.
But the frustration among people are also growing, and that should be used/channeled to make a change.
sure, am i supposed to live without a smartphone?
So, do enlighten me, beside the fact that you are obviously addicted to the smartphone, how will your life be worse without privacy?
PS. Does anyone chase something for the sake of something else? That sounded a little silly…
surveillance capitalism already makes our lives worse. also who told you i’m using phones because i’m addicted, do you not use a phone?
PS: yes, that’s why people do things at all.
Maybe postmarketOS?
Run as many open source apps as you can is about the best option. Also, OSMAND does provide turn-by-turn directions.
What it does not do well is street addresses, so at times you may find that you have to use the GPS coordinates of the place you are going to in order to get directions.
It’s never had any trouble with street addresses for me. It’s using open street map so if there are addresses that aren’t right you can submit changes.
Where it has trouble for me is on long trips over great distances. If you ask it to route a 6-hour trip to another state through a couple of metropolitan areas It has a pretty good chance of sending you a non-optimal route.
I’ve found that it can get you to businesses fairly well. where I have seen failures is navigating to an individual’s home address. What you can do is you can get the nearby intersection of two roads fairly easily, but the home address is much more difficult.
Maps?
Use OsmAnd and MagicEarth? I’ve been doping it for years now. Works fine.
Comaps has been awesome for me
Also Theres comaps
I enjoy Organic Maps.
Comaps is the fork, we moved away from organic maps. You will find basically the same experience.
Hope EU puts pressure to make google allow apps to run independently without GMS or atleast install them as user apps(like graphene os sandboxed play services).
I doubt they will put any pressure. EU decided to rely on GMS for their upcoming Digital ID app. While they claim they want to switch to open source alternatives of big tech services, they designed their app so that it forces EU citizens to either comply with Google’s ToS, or Apple’s.
Related discussion: https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technical-specification/issues/18
Furthermore, they do not seem particularly open to criticism on this subject…
if you could just have read one more update on that issue, you would’ve seen that it is moved to a discussion post now
Damn we are stupid in the EU!
What do we want: digital sovereignty
When do we want it: ehrm… Well… We have some things in pipeline and it is really hard…
They know that NSA is directly spying on us and they don’t care
The app is reference implementation, not supposed to be used.
I use Shelter to enable the work profile. It permits to copy apps between standard and work profile. So it is possible to have google services (with an account set I mean) in the work profile.
Apps like for Banks can’t be copied though. But most of the others can.
