Games on Linux are great now this is why I fully moved to Linux. Is the the work place Pc’s market improving.
As my employer has turned to almost exclusive webcrap over software - I see no hurdles really. Webapps run shitty either way. Fucking Salesforce and Opus bullshit… refresh… refresh…
I think with any alternative to big tech the problem is most people are really unwilling to change their habits and make short term compromises. A lot of people know on a surface level that big tech is stealing their data etc. But actually changing their habits goes to far.
Another issue is that its more or less a systemic issue.
To many people aren’t even awear of what FOSS even is. The state of Foss and is a bit complicated where you do have organizations and activists advocating for it but also gigantic corporations that use Foss technology and exploit the free labor that goes into it.
There definitely needs to be more activism for FOSS technology and alternatives to big tech. And those alternatives should be open to everyone like Linux is. Of course there are always multiple reasons why something isn’t used but I do think it is important to look at a bigger perspective than individual consumer/ in this case users
I’d agree with the: come preinstalled. Most people buy a device and never change the operating system. So it needs to be the preinstalled operating system on the average computer or laptop, wherever people buy those.
(And mind that Linux completely dominates the market on servers. So technically, a lot of people use Linux in a way… Just not on desktop computers.)
Two things:
- Obviously it needs to come pre-installed. This is a really tough hurdle to overcome and I’m not sure how it can be.
- Security needs a lot of work if Linux is going to lose the small-target advantage.
I think the big problem is no Ubuntu circa 2010 distro anymore that “just works” ala netbooks of the era. Only Fedora has Ubuntu in 2010-level hardware support for actual modern hardware, but no Broadcom wifi sans internet and you will need to google for and execute like 40 lines of random cli commands that seem to add the same 3 codecs 14 ways apiece to make HEVC work (more for VLC HEVC ironically). Ubuntu does Broadcom wifi out of the box, but has gotten bad and has poor hardware support overall for new hardware. Mint has the best printer support, but as of 22.1 no longer does Broadcom wifi out of the box… SteamOS is actually really great – and has MARKEDLY better hardware support for dongles and such than Bazzite, no comparison, and Bazzite suffers from Fedora’s shit HEVC situation PLUS immutable distro BS where it DOES use system .so’s but is in denial – but isn’t a real distro…
I think part of the problem is that while Linux software is constantly getting more user friendly, the average user is getting less knowledgeable about computers at just as fast of a rate. People even understanding the concept of files and folders doesn’t seem to be a given anymore.
You use an interesting example- personally, I feel like while files and folders have their place, I prefer they be part of the background and not presented to the user. Take photos, for example. If I’m looking for pictures of my dog, I don’t want to go into the 2022 folder, then the August folder, then look through all those files, back out into 2022 then go into the September folder, etc. I just want to type ‘dog’. Or pick from a dropdown list of common tags, or anything other than digging through files and folders.
Yeah, I grew up in the 90s where schools and offices had physical filing cabinets full of folders and files. And in then late 90s when learning computers at school those same concepts where reinforced in the computer file system. So files and folders within the context of using a computer is ingrained and seems obvious to me.
But kids these days are born with iPads in their hand, they use Chromebooks in primary school, and all their photos are automatically saved to the cloud and immediately available on all their devices. How would they ever learn the concepts of filesystems? It’s not taught at school. It’s not relevant to anything they do.
It used to make me so frustrated (it’s a simple concept!) but now I get it. Maybe it’s not as obvious a paradigm as we thought. Maybe there are better ways of organising files (eg, tagging, keywords, filtering) that are more human. Or using namespacing (ns prefixes, curies). Or even using non-local universal identifiers (ipfs locators). It makes me wonder if we might eventually even move away from hierarchical-directory based filesystems at the system level too.
Precisely- it’s a concept that is ingrained in people to the point where anyone who doesn’t understand it is viewed as lacking. However, it’s needless.
I don’t need to understand IP addressing subnet routing to go to a website. Why should I need to understand a file and folder structure to find an old tax document?
That’s more depressing than I can handle
Everything mainstream is a black box corporate ecosystem these days. Kids learn how to use specific programs and mobile apps, but don’t learn anything about the OS or machine itself because everything is isolated and “just works”.
It’s a really weird spot to be in. We’re used to the older generations being bad with tech, but now it’s also the younger ones too.
Yes, exactly. Phones and tablets have resulted in intro to comp sci instructors having to teach young people how a filesystem works.
What was that famous saying again? Something about developers making things idiot -proof and the universe producing bigger idiots?
Part of the problem there is that we don’t teach people how to actually use computers, we teach how to use specific programs instead usually.
A few months back I saw a post somewhere about how “kids these days don’t know how to read an analog clock”. And it’s the exact same thing, you have to teach people how to use them. You don’t just innately know how to use these things we created.
I grew up in the 2000s and got taught how to read an analog clock in like the first year of school.
I remember me teacher made a clock face on paper with the two arms pinned on. I brought up my parents had a clock with ‘lines instead of numbers’ and she taught everyone roman numerals on the spot.
What are teachers doing nowadays?
A lot of teachers are really underpaid and have a lot of students to worry about. And that’s on top of parents wanting to meddle in their kids education and schools trying to cram more into the same amount of time. So it’s not always possible for teachers to be able to teach everything they need to, let alone other useful things to know.
And well what I said in my original comment about people just expecting others to know things without bothering to teach them. Years ago I was expected to know how to sign my name in cursive when the school district that I was in cut cursive when I was in kindergarten. Thankfully I had a teacher who actually taught me how to later on but otherwise I wouldn’t have known.
When i sign my name i just write the first letter and do a fancy squiggle. Works everytime. lol
It needs to shed the gamers and get more useful users.
- Needs to come pre-installed on computers.
- Pre-installed distro needs to support one-click installation (like .app or .exe).
- Pre-installed distro needs to have be easily searchable (for problems, and e.g. searching “chrome DISTRO_NAME” needs to pop up with a link to the one-click installer).
- Pre-installed distro needs to run perfectly out-of-the-box, no fiddling with drivers, no needing to issue a random shell command for some random issue.
- UI needs to be intuitive. Probably something like KDE. Could maybe do Elementary or GNOME with dash-to-dock or something.
- Updates should be easy. Ideally apps can self-update or the apps will indicate if they need an update and have a button opening up an updater that can update all your apps/the OS.
- Updates for minor programs need to be hidden/rolled into OS updates. Most people aren’t gonna want to see that glibc updated.
- Better management of stuff like VPNs (probably not important for the average user, but e.g. NetworkManager’s GUI support is kinda shit).
- If using GNOME, need to have app indicator stuff pre-installed (if I’m being honest, the fact it’s not built-in is absurd).
- Needs to come with good basic apps. Some of the default apps included with DEs are kinda shit. There is still no truly good mail client IMO (at least that doesn’t look dated AF).
Probably more.
Pre-installed distro needs to support one-click installation (like .app or .exe).
This defeats a lot of what makes Linux secure. The main reason you don’t get malware is because you never run untrusted binaries from the internet and you install everything from trusted sources like your package manager. A non tech savvy person doing this will inevitably hit one of the super rare Linux malware in the wild. Clueless person downloads the wrong installer is the model malware entry case. I also don’t see a benefit of just having an app store, you can even show proprietary software by default as long as they can be turned off (I suspect the main reason for one click installation is for downloading proprietary software).
Personally, basically no one I know uses the app stores on windows or macos much. These app stores are actually functional in that they have proprietary apps and allow purchases. There is basically 0 chance Linux will become popular if you can only install things through an app store (especially those that make it hard/impossible to buy proprietary apps). Additionally, desktop Linux is not particularly secure anyway. Flatpaks are helpful here, but most require manual tuning of their sandbox to actually be secure, which the average user is 100% not gonna do. On top of this, what do you do when an app is not available in your curated app store? Do you download it directly online? Do you trust some random repository you find online that can be filled with who knows what at a later point? Or do you just say “oh well sucks to be you I guess?” If you download it directly online, then it may not even have dependency information. If it doesn’t embed dependency information, then it’s basically useless to your average person. It also has the problem you mentioned of someone downloading the wrong executable. Likewise, the other two options are IMO just not viable.
IMO, the only way for a package manager/app store solution to work is:
- The platform is built around it from day 1
- The platform has a large number of developers submitting their packages to it (as opposed to the distro maintainers having to track down changes themselves)
- The app store has payment methods
- The app store has proprietary apps
- The app store has a large number of reviewers that can check the apps submitted in a timely manner
- Probably bundling dependencies with the apps.
- The app store has a functional review system with users actually leaving reviews.
- Going along with the reviews, going through the app store (as opposed to using the package manager directly) may need to be a requirement to encourage reviews, at least at first.
Basically, it needs to be an iOS/Android situation, with a similarly large company backing it. I should also note that it’s possible to install malware on iOS/Android, just harder, and the scope is usually less severe because of sandboxing.
EDIT: Also, it’s entirely possible to do one-click installs in a “safe” way, by requiring that developers get their apps signed by whoever makes the distro (like macos gatekeeper or whatever it’s called).
EDIT 2: I should also note that just being “different” is enough for people not to use something. If something basic, like the way to install apps, is different enough, people may just decide they don’t like it. My relatives would likely do this, for instance.
offer less choice and have an official version of things.
Ok, let’s hereby declare that Debian + Gnome is the official Linux. Everyone who wants Linux to have more users must run Debian and Gnome. First, how do we convince everyone to not use their favorite distros?
my point is thatfor us techie users (i use arch btw) having choice is good. But for the average user it’s a big negative actually.
The linux ecosystem needs to standardize on more things to also allow linux development to be worthwile for devs.
Choosing one distro is not enough, when it can decide to rip out and replace half of its subsystems at will. The most stable api on linux for games is win32 ffs! I have linux native builds of games that simply don’t run on linux anymore.
Osu! Runs ten times faster through wine than through the native linux build
I’d like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as Debian…
Most of the comments here seem to be from the consumer perspective, but if you want broader adoption, you need to consider the corporate market too. Most corporate software these days is web-based, so the problem is less with the software and more with the people responsible for it.
The biggest hurdle is friction with the internal IT team. They like Windows because that’s all they ever learnt and they’re not interested in maintaining a diverse set of company laptops. They won’t entertain Linux in a corporate environment unless it’s mandated by management, and even if the bosses approve it, IT will want a way to lock you out of your laptop, force updates, do a remote wipe, etc.
There are (proprietary) tools to do some of this, but they generally suck and often clash with your package manager. Microsoft is just way ahead of Linux in the “bloatware that tours your hands” department.
This is it. Exactly it. Internal IT management wants a good, centrally managed system to lock down and control corporate devices. Heck, corporations often even contract this task (and help desk) to management companies.
Let’s assume the tools and the experts are there to perform these remote management shenanigans, after this it only comes to “money talks”. Don’t have to replace a 2-4yo laptop with a new one if the old one still performs fine for another 2-4 years. So then you have to weigh the cost of expertise against slower amortization.
My company disabled VPN access for anything but macOS and Win11. Because even though the VPN we use is mandated to be used with a closed source app, and the app has a Linux version, the IT dudes couldn’t exit vim when asked to manually edit /etc/environment
the IT dudes couldn’t exit vim when asked to manually edit /etc/environment
Lol, my brother in christ what kind of it are they hiring these days? i cant, i just cant
The vast majority of business apps and network admin apps are written for windows so you either can’t run them on unix or they would require an additional layer of complexity that can’t be justified “just to be on unix”.
For dev and IT work I use a mix of windows and RHEL. Business apps in windows and terminal sessions on our linux servers. My db work is almost 100% linux.
For non-enterprise users only two things:
- Zero reasonably priced options for support when things go wrong.
- Breaking changes caused by updates that make that support necessary.
If my neighbor’s Windows or Apple machine breaks they can call Microsoft or Apple, the PC manufacturer or a bunch of different support providers. Microsoft provides free support if one of their updates causes problems.
I can’t find any Linux support aimed at home users, only very expensive enterprise support options.
Have u ever talked to tech support of microsoft as usual user? With such quality ofsupport it would be better that it would none,in the end all their support coming please reboot computer.
Most of the people I know are computer illiterate. They know nothing about PC’s and don’t care to learn because they think of PCs as appliances. They want word processing, email, photos, and web, and don’t give a damn what’s going on under the hood. Microsoft support is generally pretty bad, but it’s far better than none at all.
That lack of any support (except me) is the only reason I haven’t moved friends and family to Linux.
You can call Microsoft? I thought Microsoft called me
Hello this is da virus techneetiian fwom da Microsoft.
CAD software.
FreecCAD just released it’s first full version and it’s a pain to use. Back in 2018 somebody said FOSS CAD software was at least ten years behind the big windows commercial software. I think now it’s about fifteen behind.
I disagree. Majority of average office workers do not use CAD software. It’s not a hurdle to widespread adoption.
Majority of average office workers do not use CAD software.
That really depends on the office, doesn’t it? Project Managers, Detailers and Engineers should be familiar with CAD software.
Even if for a moment we assume u r right, what about electricians? cnc ? 3D printing? etc.
Not a problem for u doesnt mean it isnt for someone else, a we aint even talkin about compatibility issues between cad software.
Try bricsCAD closed source but native for linux https://www.bricsys.com/
The software looks nice, but it seems there’s no 3D capable hobby-tier. 3D modelling starts at Pro-tier, which is >$700 per year. That’s a low price for commercial software, but not a good option for hobbyists
For the vast majority of users Linux is just a worse deal. Only thing that really comes to mind that Linux does that users care about is that it will support that hardware that Windows 11 will leave behind, and even those users will happily just run Windows 10 without updates and if that bites them in the ass then maybe they’ll upgrade or just ask their IT friend to use a bypass to make Windows 11 at least work on their old hardware.
Otherwise, of the things users actually care about, Linux has worse app support to the point that even pro-Linux users would rather dual-boot that lose access to their games and worse hardware support. Linux also has a problem of not being well understood by a lot of tech folk so if you bring somebody onboard you better be ready to be their only point of support.
ChromeOS is probably the best example against this since it is basically just a browser, the laptops it sells on are substantially better value than their budget counterparts and realistically a lot of the people buying them are parents for their kids so the user’s preference is substantially pushed aside in favour of cost. The SteamDeck is another good counter-example since it essentially refuses to compete with the PC gaming market by calling itself a handheld.
Linux is stuck in the crappy position of needing more users to get more software and hardware support but users need better software and hardware support for Linux to make sense compared to Windows. It’s getting better and Valve’s efforts have steadily brought the Linux gaming percentage up but it’s still the enthusiast OS.
By all means encourage it’s usage though. Linux is a far more open and privacy-respecting option and the more tech folk and basic-usage users that adopt it the better!
I think the hardware compatibility issues may be overstated. It seems (to me) that besides apple silicon, the support for most consumer hardware is pretty robust. this seems especially true of the kinds of hardware casuals use. Im not a tester, but havent seen a dell, hp, or Lenovo with a hardware issue in ages.
For the vast majority of users Linux is just a worse deal.
The vast majority of users only need an office suite, an internet browser, and maybe the ability to play games. Linux does these just fine, with less bullshit than Windows to boot.
The real problem is inertia. People tend to go with what they’re familiar with, and most of them are familiar with Windows. And those that might be willing to try a new OS get turned away from Linux due to outdated stigmas about it being harder to use than Windows. While that stigma may still be true for enthusiast distros like Arch, new users are generally steered away from them
Either:
- A smarter and wiser population able to discern and care enough that they’re being cucked by Microsoft, overcoming the inertia to install Linux.
- Linux invents a game/feature that is so goddamn appealing that everyone wants in on the action.
- Preinstallation.
I think it is its image of lack of stability and features; I know there are out there stable distros and almost every well known program has a Linux version, but the image that Linux has had through the years is not that. If Linux overcomes this and gets a better reputation, it would be a great weight lifted for the road ahead of the OS. I hope Proton breaks through the mainstream public and Linux gets more exposed and known out there
I’ve been dragging my feet on making the switch. Some of it is i just doing feel like doing another OS install and desktop setup. Some of it is distro paralysis. There’s a lot and I dont really know what to choose.
I downloaded Mint Cinnamon a while back and was too lazy to install it. Is this still a good choice for gaming and school work? I already use libreoffice.
I’m comfortable enough with configuring and settings, but by no means a superuser.
Linux mint is a good start becuase it does a lot of stuff for you but is also not immutable, so it gives you some more options
