I know, I know, mostly just undergrads care about undergrad prestige (except resumé bots on LinkedIn scanning for “MIT”) but I’m curious about the average Lemming, who might lie less often than Redditors and probably isn’t a hyper outlier. Though I still expect selection and response bias :3
Let me start with my own wall of anecdotes.
- An old American embedded systems mentor I once had had had like two master’s degrees, but in his words,
Just get a Bachelor’s and a good internship. If the company will let you do it on their dime, then get the Master’s.
So the college-then-job thing wasn’t quite cause-then-effect.
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Another friend I had said “All of the higher-ups in the chip engineering dept I’m gunning for have a PhD. Wanna contribute meaningfully? Probably gotta have one too” (Somewhere in the entirety of Asia, exacts hidden for privacy). So grad school matters more in that case.
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My old econ teacher told me that, if you want a job where undergrad is just a stepping stone, then your undergrad “prestige” mostly doesn’t matter (e.g. pre-law, pre-med). And saving 50k in undergrad student loans to then dump into matching the S&P is a cheat code at age 18, worth far more than “initial salary”. not financial advice lol In this case, the “get your job” isn’t even that important.
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An acquaintance I once had pipelined from Cornell to DeepMind. There, prestige and its opportunities probably/definitely/maybe had an effect.
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A second acquaintance says his Canadian public school (iirc) only mildly helped him, so he went all-in on making his own networks outside of school to get into AI (Is he a hustler bro or something?). So he dodged the idea of college choice mattering.
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A Harvard acquaintance I knew says both their dad and granddad agreed that going to Harvard played into getting their positions. (No need to believe me. I forgot what position tho – finance/big business probably)
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The managers and manager managers my parents knew often only had community/state school undergrads, sometimes with MBAs.
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I don’t care about CEOs. All outliers anyway.
So what have you empirically found? And where? (inb4 “American elite school obsession bad” and “CS is skill-based, not school-based, thread over” – heard all of that already)
You can be vague if needed c:
In the UK undergrads are basically considered like high school by most employers. If you want to be employed (especially in tech) you have to have a master’s degree which is like the new bachelor’s, be a talented artist/slop creator with a following (in industries like marketing) or go into trades, but usually that path is only viable if there’s someone you know in trades thats close.
Yeah the market has definitely toughened regarding college degrees, since the 80s. (Maybe bc they’re more common now? If that’s a good thing or not.)
Funny enough, Reddit likes to say
- cs bachelor’s degree and 2yr experience is better than master’s and none (I’ve always doubted whether that’s a real widespread thing)
- trades make bank ezpz (I hear that relies on a good apprenticeship which can be hard to get)
Also: would you say the choice of undergrad matters in UK tech?
slop creator
lmao
It matters more and less than it probably oughta depending on the specifics.
I wouldn’t have been able to get into Cybersec MSc (and later job) with a Gamedev BSc, yet all the gamedevs were way more hardcore as programmers and software engineers with a much more thorough understanding of computers just by the virtue that they learned C++ and Python and not Java/C#, meanwhile someone with a Business Information Systems degree can easily pivot into a cybersec MSc yet know absolutely nothing about how computers work as that is primarily a marketing/media degree with light IT.
What roles in tech do you consider needing a Masters?
Need? None of course. MSc I did was a waste of time pretty much. But I needed to stay in the country for the visa so I did it anyway.
Before I got an MSc I got absolutely zero offers for:
Junior Software Engineer/Developer (Full stack, backend & frontend; React, Python, NodeJS, C#, Java) Junior Network Engineer Junior Site Reliability Engineer Junior DevOps Engineer Junior UI/UX Analyst Junior IT Technician Junior IT Support Engineer Junior IT Support Analyst Junior Machine Learning Trainee Junior Data Analytics Engineer Junior Infrastructure Analyst (Cloud and DC) Junior Cybersecurity Analyst Junior Security Engineer
I eventually applied for a Java (Node) Developer and turns out they needed a Junior Security Engineer so I got through the interview and did that. About a year later got promoted to mid-level, fully remote. Never looked back.
In the end in my entire life I’ve applied to hundreds of positions, most with custom written cover letters, I got a grand total of 4 interviews, 1 lead to a technical test I did my best on then failed anyway, 1 led to a technical test that I then succeeded at, 2 others led to offers, one of which was my work placement/internship as an “Junior informatics trainee” during uni as part of their program (cost £5000) and paid minimum wage and it was the worst soul-sucking job I ever had.
Most of the jobs I’ve gotten were through friends I made at uni. Thanks to my education, I’m capable and skilled, but the friend network I made at school has gotten me in for interviews.
Masters in Architecture. Required to become a licensed architect. Almost every facet of the job can be done without a degree/license. Most of my coworkers only have a bachelor’s, if that. You typically just get paid more and can get more responsibilities (and, by extension, liability) with a license.
I was also told to get any diploma because it would somehow prove you’ll be good at an unrelated job.
Finished my studies during a recession, nobody would hire someone without work experience and I was suddenly overqualified for other jobs.
Getting a diploma wasn’t a good idea.
I have a PhD in physics. A requirement for a physics professor. Also. A requirement for an unemployed physics professor seeking a job as a physics professor.
Does ex(1) count as specialized/higher ed? On BSD systems I just use standard ed(1).
Masters in Electrical Engineering, focus on digital IC design.
Without it - and it being from a prestigious university here in Germany - I would never have landed the job I currently have (first job after university). Also, initial pay was fixed on whether you have a PhD or not.
But I think, for everything after this initial job and salary, the diploma doesn’t matter at all anymore. Also from fellow students I hear, that this focus on the diploma is very prevalent in Germany but not so much in other countries.
I’m a structural engineer with a Masters degree. The degree has been useful to me on the job as the classes apply to what I’m working on.
There is a major debate in the civil engineering community as to whether a Bachelors degree is enough, with the American professional organization, ASCE, advocating for a Master’s equivalent for licensure. The argument against is that there aren’t enough licensed engineers anyway and requiring a Masters degree would reduce the number of engineers. There are also some disciplines in civil engineering that are really simple and don’t need the additional education.
Having worked with structural PhD’s, the additional education isn’t worth it. Most of the education in a doctorate is on higher level models while most codes don’t need anything that advanced.
A state school is usually good enough school to go to.
I’m in the US. I got a broad science degree for undergrad, hoping to go into med school. Well, I didn’t end up choosing that path, so the degree I had ended up with was not particularly useful for getting a decent job. I knew I needed different education to get to where I wanted to be, but I wasn’t sure what path I would need to take.
Eventually I decided to go back to get a specialized healthcare master’s degree. The first year is book work. The second year is hands on training. My degree and subsequent certification is required for the work that I do. In the US, many healthcare jobs require very specialized education and certification and/or licensure. I have a lot of student loan debt now, but it was absolutely worth it for me to have a decent career making what I feel is decent money.
The “prestige” of the university does not matter for my field. I went to a local public university for my undergraduate degree. Only so many schools throughout the country have my graduate program, so I ended up going to a relatively small private school.
I own a small business and have had great luck hiring people from small liberal arts colleges with degrees like philosophy, history, humanities, etc. These folks are smart and with the right training can do anything. Even better if they have worked fast food in the past (weird, right?). MBA graduates are expensive but require the same training and support - so I personally won’t hire from that pool. Although I have an MBA because it was a box I had to check for a previous role. I got the cheapest one possible and have no regrets.
German here, I think the degree needed for getting a good job mostly depends on your study subject. One friend of mine studied chemistry at university and said that a PhD is required for a good job while another friend of mine studied computer science and got hired before even finishing his Bachelor’s degree. The company helped him in finishing his Bachelor’s degree while employing him.
I studied math and got a Master of science, currently doing my PhD while working as a research assistant. I hear most math students leave uni after getting their Bachelor’s, similar to computer science students. Though it still wasn’t easy to get a research job for me. I think even within a study subject it depends on your field of research whether getting a job is easy or not.
Have a masters in computer science, I can’t say it had much of an impact on my career.
I dont. I did highschool thats all. Then i got a job. So ill give you my perspective on stuff like this as someone who didnt do any of it.
I had undiagnosed ADHD in highschool and never did any homework or studied or anything. Only reason i graduated with Ds and Cs is that id basically get a 90-100 on every test or quiz without trying. I hated school. So as soon as i could i got a normal job. Ive worked in retail, warehouses, industrial sectors, etc all in the about 10 years since graduating highschool. Now i work in a more clerical position. Not physically demanding work. Which is nice.
Honestly as a poor person i see all of this stuff with higher ed, and knowing the right people as… silly? I guess. Its like watching all of you play this big game of theatre pretending to be meritocratic while clearly being fully commited to nepotism. The biggest factor in how much money someone makes is how much money their parents made.
I think all of you underestimate how many of us poor people dislike you too. Maybe not you in particular but the system you participate in. That manifests itself in the form of chud Trump supporters and neo-nazism a lot. They were created by this economy that has left them behind. So they fell for Trumps lies when he promised to destroy all of you, but i digress.
Nobody talks about school at the places i work. What matters is if you do a good job. I have no idea what education my coworkers have. Ive never even had to show someone my highschool diploma i didnt even get it cuz i skipped graduation day. So i assume the school threw it away. When applying for a job i type or check a box that i did highschool and thats that. They dont care. They want to know about experience and if ill be good at the job. That’s how it works when your poor.
As for my future plans as someone without a degree i want to get a cheap sailboat and live off the grid on it. Spending as little money as possible and enjoying nature.(solar for power, fish to supplement food, collect and filter rain for water, etc) Plus once the inevitable happens and theres massive civil unrest i can get outta dodge easier than most.
I’m mildly fortunate but ever since I was a kid I saw the rank race as insufferable as well. Since the start of high school I felt that way. Every step of college apps, standardized tests made me physically grimace.
Kids in my hs class obsessed over ranks. “You let this guy beat you? Chump.” “I’m taking all AP classes, I’m a workaholic!” “Did you know so-and-so got into Princeton? She’s so smart!” Superficial as fuck. Talk about something more interesting than numbering people, I beg of you.
The SAT depressed me. I did good, but only because I read at an unholy speed, I wasn’t super smart or anything. And I saw lots of kids get average SATs because of home trouble or not being a test killer or being unable to afford time or money for SAT training or not being able to take the SAT 5 times. Instant sieve.
Even in my undergrad people were ranky af. “Oh, yeah, I got waitlisted for Cornell, I got rejected from MIT, I got deferred from Carnegie-Mellon…” Shut up, please shut up. Whether it’s innocent or not, it helps no one and does nothing.
About your brief digression with Trump. My undergrad was heavy on DEI, and I think a lot of people disliked it but kept their mouth shut. I felt neutral either way but I’d hear conversations like
“Why didn’t I get into this program? What did the others do that I didn’t have?”
“Oh, he’s gay.”
“Fuck, I shoulda been gay! Maybe I should apply for random scholarships and pretend I’m 1% Irish or whatever.”
even though they’d switch and say
“DEI is important for disadvantaged groups…”
during the orientation meeting. So I can see where a lot of modern hostility comes from, even though the effects of said hostilities have put America worse off.
cheap sailboat and live off the grid
Dreamy. Make sure you stay safe :P
DEI is just a dogwhistle for homophobia and racism. The issue with the Trump voters is he courts lots of just like pissed off poor white people and he redirects their anger at liberal elites towards immigrants, trans people, gay people, POC, etc.
If the economy wasn’t set up in such a way that these people are so poor theyd be less likely to buy into all that nonsense. Happy people dont join cults generally. Its the desperate and angry that join movements like that and then get radicalized to the right.
But ya i mean the whole degree or no degree is really just a “did you have 25 grand to get this piece of paper with at 18?” signifier. Its a class designator. Just like how in ancient times higher classes wore different colored clothes and whatnot.
Like for example take a retail worker vs someone at head office. The retail worker makes dirext contributions to tons of sales and if theyre gone for 1 hour shit starts to fall apart. Yet they make minimim wage usually.
The one at head office has pointless meeting all day, and if they stop working for an hour no one notices. Yet they make significantly more money.
The money made by a job isnt based on the value of the work in companies like this its based on the class of worker that applies for said job.
Now outside of large companies this isnt always the case as you can have trades, and sole proprietorships, etc. But those are some rare exceptions.
In general they place “high class” or “middle class” jobs behind a degree requirement even if the job isnt really very hard and a highschool education would be fine to do it.
Even highschool’s in the US are classed. Since they’re largely funded by property taxes high property values means better schools. And we have different curriculum in different schools too. There are highschools in rich areas which emphasize thinking outside the box, social skills, etc then in poor areas its more do as your told, heavy punishment rates, keeping people in line. This plays into the school to prison pipeline too. Prison is the lowest class in America as it is used for slave labor.
Americas classes are generally like this:
Capitalists: The ones who own everything billionaires 100+ millionaires etc
High class: some politicians, CEOs, people who typically act as a proxy and serve the will of a capitalist. Altho some capitalists choose to do these jobs themselves.
Upper middle class: People making significant money living very comfortably but who arent filthy rich. These are typically your highly skilled professional types. Doctors, Lawyers, etc.
Middle class: This is a very mixed bag but one of the main jobs of the middle class is to manage the lower classes. So its common for them to fill managerial roles.
Lower class: your poor workers who do whatever job they can to make ends meet.
Prison Labor: The millions of people in Americas prisons who do hard manual labor for pennies as a slave workforce. Usually in prison for some stupid bullshit that shouldn’t be illegal or shouldn’t have such a harsh sentence.
There are lots of signifiers to let people know what class you are that are baked into the system. Money being an obvious one, but degrees, criminal records, the way you dress, car you drive, phone you have, etc all play into it. And people subconsciously take note of it all the time. I personally find it to be an inhumane and gross system so i dont try to participate in it.
