neurodivergence, adhd included, is actually widely underdiagnosed - some doctors estimate 1 in 5 people is neurodivergent. And those rates have been rising (though possibly because of increased acceptance)
right, and with that sort of prevalence, and so little detrimental effects to society, there isn’t good enough evidence for advocating “treatment” of most people who just think differently than other people.
largely, they notice or pay attention to different things, so “treatments” are unnecessary, obtrusive or damaging.
exception given to extreme cases, “treating” ADHD seems a lot like removing funding for arts courses because school administrators don’t value the arts.
Hi. I failed out of college, in no small part due to undiagnosed ADHD. I wanna offer a little pushback.
I can’t tell if you want to change society to be less punishing to neurodivergent people, or if your whole thesis is “People with ADHD have little to no trouble in society today”.
If it’s the former: not treating people who are struggling is not the way to change society. Accepting for the sake of argument that ADHD people “pay attention to different things”; paying attention to some things is critical to my ability to thrive. I would love to live in a world where I could just do what I thought was important and still have my needs taken care of, but unfortunately I’m stuck needing to pay attention to stupid bullshit I don’t care about in order to make a living, and that’s a tremendous struggle without medication.
If it’s the latter: Jesus Christ, talk to someone with ADHD.
And finally: I take issue with your metaphor at the end. What do you think is present in an unmedicated person with ADHD that is somehow missing in a medicated person?
“People with ADHD have little to no trouble in society today”
that is the opposite thesis my previous comment.
that said, if you don’t have trouble in society today, I want to know more about your society.
“not treating people who are struggling is not the way to change society”
neither is treating people who don’t wish to be treated or are treated unnecessarily.
are you sure you’re responding to the right comment? I haven’t said many of the things you are arguing against so far.
“and that’s a tremendous struggle without medication”
then according to my previous comment, you are one of the extreme cases that need and want intervention, and should receive it.
“I take issue with your metaphor at the end”
I gather from your preceding assumptions and arguments against things that I have not said, along with your general combative tone, that you have been quixoticaly swept up in an imagined narrative that you feel you must do battle with.
“What do you think is present in an unmedicated person with ADHD that is somehow missing in a medicated person?”
I guess I’m ultimately confused about what you’re arguing for. My ADHD is by no means “extreme”; trouble focusing at work or school is one of the baseline things you’re unlikely to get diagnosed without. I can’t imagine any reasonable person advocating for medicating people who don’t stand to benefit from it, which seems to be the motte to your bailey.
“I guess I’m ultimately confused about what you’re arguing for.”
I would suggest asking the source for clarification or further information rather than misattributing assumptions and then arguing against those assumptions, none of which are present in the comment you are confused by and subsequently railing against.
“I can’t imagine any reasonable person advocating for medicating people who don’t stand to benefit from it”
tolerant place you’re from.
“seems to be the motte to your baile”
how so?
My original comment isn’t controversial and I didn’t switch positions either.
we don’t give a shit what “detriment to society” adhd is. Executive dysfunction is detrimental to the quality of life, and that’s one symptom amongst many
the society was built for neurotypical people, and so neurodiverse people need help to function in it in a way that doesn’t make them feel worthless - and that means treatment, be it with therapy and/or meds
I recently read an article about a doctor who was making a case that the issue is not that those 1 in 5 are “neurodivergent”, but our current society is causing harm. When he sees ADHD symptoms his first “treatments” are proper nutrition, making sure they feel like they’re doing meaningful things in life, enough exercise, etc…
I’m also sometimes starting to wonder if for a part we’re not just medicating people to “thrive” in a society that’s inhuman, rather than make society work for as many people as possible.
But it’s of course a very complex & grey area, and let’s be honest, something as vague as ADHD probably encompasses a lot of different causes. And it’ll probably take decades of research before we actually manage to split up all the things that are today lumped together into the separate things with each their own propert treatment.
What are you talking about, spending 8 hours a day in a chair staring into a light-up rectangle and getting yelled at over the phone is the natural human state, and anyone who can’t force themselves to do so has something wrong with them.
Seriously, though, the problem is real. A psychologist can be fully aware the patient has anxiety about paying rent because they can’t make rent, but the only tool available to help them in a professional capacity is treating the anxiety. Same goes for depression and the rest. Hell, thinking about it now, same would have been true of drapetomania.
ADHD uses pretty powerful drugs. If you don’t have a specific indicator, just behavior then it is normal and correct to try and treat it through other means first.
neurodivergence, adhd included, is actually widely underdiagnosed - some doctors estimate 1 in 5 people is neurodivergent. And those rates have been rising (though possibly because of increased acceptance)
right, and with that sort of prevalence, and so little detrimental effects to society, there isn’t good enough evidence for advocating “treatment” of most people who just think differently than other people.
largely, they notice or pay attention to different things, so “treatments” are unnecessary, obtrusive or damaging.
exception given to extreme cases, “treating” ADHD seems a lot like removing funding for arts courses because school administrators don’t value the arts.
Hi. I failed out of college, in no small part due to undiagnosed ADHD. I wanna offer a little pushback.
I can’t tell if you want to change society to be less punishing to neurodivergent people, or if your whole thesis is “People with ADHD have little to no trouble in society today”.
If it’s the former: not treating people who are struggling is not the way to change society. Accepting for the sake of argument that ADHD people “pay attention to different things”; paying attention to some things is critical to my ability to thrive. I would love to live in a world where I could just do what I thought was important and still have my needs taken care of, but unfortunately I’m stuck needing to pay attention to stupid bullshit I don’t care about in order to make a living, and that’s a tremendous struggle without medication.
If it’s the latter: Jesus Christ, talk to someone with ADHD.
And finally: I take issue with your metaphor at the end. What do you think is present in an unmedicated person with ADHD that is somehow missing in a medicated person?
“less punishing to neurodivergent people”
I mostly agree with this.
“People with ADHD have little to no trouble in society today”
that is the opposite thesis my previous comment.
that said, if you don’t have trouble in society today, I want to know more about your society.
“not treating people who are struggling is not the way to change society”
neither is treating people who don’t wish to be treated or are treated unnecessarily.
are you sure you’re responding to the right comment? I haven’t said many of the things you are arguing against so far.
“and that’s a tremendous struggle without medication”
then according to my previous comment, you are one of the extreme cases that need and want intervention, and should receive it.
“I take issue with your metaphor at the end”
I gather from your preceding assumptions and arguments against things that I have not said, along with your general combative tone, that you have been quixoticaly swept up in an imagined narrative that you feel you must do battle with.
“What do you think is present in an unmedicated person with ADHD that is somehow missing in a medicated person?”
missing? nothing.
Combative? Take a look in the mirror pal.
I guess I’m ultimately confused about what you’re arguing for. My ADHD is by no means “extreme”; trouble focusing at work or school is one of the baseline things you’re unlikely to get diagnosed without. I can’t imagine any reasonable person advocating for medicating people who don’t stand to benefit from it, which seems to be the motte to your bailey.
“Combative?”
yup.
“Take a look in the mirror pal.”
thank you! that was a nice break.
“I guess I’m ultimately confused about what you’re arguing for.”
I would suggest asking the source for clarification or further information rather than misattributing assumptions and then arguing against those assumptions, none of which are present in the comment you are confused by and subsequently railing against.
“I can’t imagine any reasonable person advocating for medicating people who don’t stand to benefit from it”
tolerant place you’re from.
“seems to be the motte to your baile”
how so?
My original comment isn’t controversial and I didn’t switch positions either.
is this a gaslighting attempt?
are you lighting my gas?
Oh yeah, light that gas daddy.
A… Are you a neurotypical telling us what is good for us…? Wow
no, but I appreciate the vote of confidence.
No…what?
we don’t give a shit what “detriment to society” adhd is. Executive dysfunction is detrimental to the quality of life, and that’s one symptom amongst many
the society was built for neurotypical people, and so neurodiverse people need help to function in it in a way that doesn’t make them feel worthless - and that means treatment, be it with therapy and/or meds
“Executive dysfunction is detrimental to the quality of life”
stroof.
“neurodiverse people need help to function in it in a way that doesn’t make them feel worthless”
"some neurodiverse people do, but your reasoning implies that neurotypical people do not feel worthless in today’s society.
that’s a take that won’t stand up to much scrutiny.
“…treatment, be it with therapy and/or meds”
apparently we’re in agreement.
treatment, when necessary, effective, and desired, should be available.
Turns out it was a small sect known as the “Morning People” oppressing everyone for millennia.
Exactly. They’re the divergent ones.
I recently read an article about a doctor who was making a case that the issue is not that those 1 in 5 are “neurodivergent”, but our current society is causing harm. When he sees ADHD symptoms his first “treatments” are proper nutrition, making sure they feel like they’re doing meaningful things in life, enough exercise, etc…
I’m also sometimes starting to wonder if for a part we’re not just medicating people to “thrive” in a society that’s inhuman, rather than make society work for as many people as possible.
But it’s of course a very complex & grey area, and let’s be honest, something as vague as ADHD probably encompasses a lot of different causes. And it’ll probably take decades of research before we actually manage to split up all the things that are today lumped together into the separate things with each their own propert treatment.
What are you talking about, spending 8 hours a day in a chair staring into a light-up rectangle and getting yelled at over the phone is the natural human state, and anyone who can’t force themselves to do so has something wrong with them.
Seriously, though, the problem is real. A psychologist can be fully aware the patient has anxiety about paying rent because they can’t make rent, but the only tool available to help them in a professional capacity is treating the anxiety. Same goes for depression and the rest. Hell, thinking about it now, same would have been true of drapetomania.
Sounds like you’re putting forward theories of someone who doesn’t believe in ADHD, and then immediately walking it back. Why even type it?
ADHD uses pretty powerful drugs. If you don’t have a specific indicator, just behavior then it is normal and correct to try and treat it through other means first.