I’m going to lock this. You guys have been mostly great, but I don’t know enough about the situation to know who to delete their comments. People twitter isn’t really a community that talks about world politics normally. Sorry about this.
I make the analogy with North Korea. North Korea is obviously a threat to South Korea. But if South Korea were to start bombing North Korea and kill 250 people a day the question would be how long it would take for people to ask “Why are you doing this?”
This is going to likely get me called a tankie, but the civilian massacres South Korea didn’t cause a blink to the US. They killed whole communities that had a communist insurgency in them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_South_Korea
Nope!
LOL wow. were you president of the debate club in high school?
Dude, go read the page you linked. Seriously. The “no, you” argument being used to defend Zionism has nothing to do with the page you linked to. Sorry, but, it just doesn’t…
Like, for real, you’ve clearly misremembered your debate terminology. Cause you ain’t making any sense here.
Thank you.
I was the captain of the debate team; this guy does not understand what an appeal to popularity actually means. Experts carry weight that general population does not.
you’re attributing the “expert” label to people and organizations whose “expertise” is self-proclaimed. this isn’t like covid, fauci, and the cdc type expertise that is based on literal verifiable science. why is “expert” even a term that’s being used in a conversation about abstract impossible to quantify concepts like foreign relations?
the argument “i’m right, because these people that call themselves ‘expert’ think so too” in the context of foreign relations is what’s known as argumentum ad populum.. please explain how i’m wrong
also, although obviously the herd mentality has made their judgment, i’m going to say it anyway: i’m not “pro-genocide” or “zionist” or any other form of “israel = best most valid everything” unlike the united states government, who will continue to send money, weapons, aircraft carriers, and your kids to defend israel at all costs. forever.
please explain how I’m wrong.
I think the misunderstanding at play is that this isn’t a question of foreign relations, but rather about the factual conditions of the conflict and whether they justify the legal and/or moral label of genocide.
Such factual conditions can be investigated through sound, empirical gathering of evidence, and any well defined concept of genocide can then be evaluated in that context.
This evidence gathering and following genocide evaluation can be much better performed by organizations with expertise and authority on such matters. Most of the listed organizations are considering expert evidence gatherers and experienced, empowered authorities of genocide evaluation.
Therefore, the fact that such a list of organizations agree on the evidence supporting the label, must weigh as evidence to those of us who do not have this expertise ourselves. It proves nothing outright, but should weigh heavily in the private opinion-forming of laymen.
fair enough. i see this perspective now, and will no longer criticize the “it’s genocide because ________ says it is” argument. thank you for the discussion!
USA will continue to fellate israel no matter what anyone says, until there IS no more USA
That’s incorrect, this isn’t talking about what the masses believe but what actual experts and legal scholars and courts are overwhelmingly saying. That fallacy doesn’t apply to a judge’s rulings.
actual experts and legal scholars and courts are overwhelmingly saying.
wow, “overwhelmingly saying” i guess what they say must be true then LOL
No.
Your fallacy would apply to something like
80 percent of Americans believe that …
But not to
Judges from all over the world came to the conclusion …
The whole thing this fallacy is trying to explain is that you should ask the experts, not the general population.
lol “judge = expert”
thank you for supporting the infallible not-bullshit authority on all things truth of the honorable judge aileen cannon
fucking /s
I have absolutely no idea what aileen cannon has to to with the fallacy you mentioned. Maybe you posted your reply to the wrong thread.
Did anyone claim that all judges are correct? No. You’re strawmanning the issue. Going from one incorrect fallacy to another.
And who do YOU think should best be qualified to determine whether a law is broken or not…except a judge? Or the consensus of judges?
if only we held the US government to the same standards as we do randos on lemmy…
lol got’em
The majority of zionists believe killing children is a valid way to wage war so it must be true!
thank you! i’ll keep this on deck in case i ever make a fallacious argument
But you did.
This isn’t an argumentum ad populum fallacy because the argument isn’t based solely on the number of people or organizations making the claim; it’s based on the authority and credibility of these entities.
Whether you agree or disagree with those entities and question their credibility is a separate matter, but it’s not argumentum ad populum. For the same reason the following isn’t:
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the World Health Organization, the American Cancer Society, the American Heart Association, and the National Institutes of Health all claim that smoking causes lung cancer and heart disease, so it must be true.
all those orgs have scientific evidence to back up their claims
And the organizations from the post must have their evidence for making their claims. Otherwise they wouldn’t be considered reputable.
But that doesn’t matter, because you still misused the fallacy.
considered reputable.
there are people consider fox news to be “reputable” so that point of yours means approximately nothing. facts are what matter, and the israel problem is contentious because no one can back up their own definition of “genocide” with facts
you still misused the fallacy.
i didn’t, but whatever.
I like how you completely ignored the part where I said “that doesn’t matter” and argued the wrong point anyway.
Whether you consider them reputable or not doesn’t matter. Those are THE organizations (some of them, anyway) that decide these things. They are THE experts in the field. If a person were to say “a lot of people/organizations say <some fact in field x>, so it must be true”, that would be argumentum ad populum. But since they are saying “a lot of <authorities/experts in the field x> claim <some fact in the field x>, so it must be true”, that’s not a fallacy, that’s a valid appeal to authority.
CDC, WHO, NIH, etc. could all be wrong, they could’ve interpreted the “scientific evidence” incorrectly and come to the wrong conclusions. But we know that this is an unlikely scenario for so many independent experts in the field to reach a consensus on something that is wrong. Therefore, our best bet is to trust their conclusions.
To iterate, whether those organizations are right or wrong doesn’t matter, because they are not a random majority—they are the organizations you’re supposed to rely on in this situation; it’s a valid appeal to authority. Hence, it’s not a fallacy, let alone argumentum ad populum.
If anything, this would be an appeal to authority. It’s not like the post is saying half of the American people believe it’s genocide and therefore it is. No, the claim is that several relevant organizations like the ICC, ICJ, and Human Rights Watch, etc., are saying that it is genocide. That’d be like claiming that the vast majority of climate scientists believing in global warming is supporting evidence that global warming is likely true. It is. It’s not enough evidence on its own, but it is evidence nonetheless.
That’s the thing. Not all appeals to authority are fallacious. Supporting a claim with an expert’s opinion is a logically sound way to support an argument.
the zionist brain-rot is real
Oh, no …
I donate to Doctors Without Borders.
looks at hands What have I done?!
Sorry but you are now Hamas
It’s illegal to diagnose someone with Hamas without a medical license. (Maybe that’s why Israel keeps doing it?)
🔥🔥🔥
Fuck Israel
Fuck Israel and the Palestinians for being endlessly shitty to each other and dragging the whole gottdam world into their regional territorial dispute over and over for the better part of the last century. Fuck the whole lot of them together for perpetuating the most narcissistic conflict of the 20th century. Everyone’s a victim and everyone’s an aggressor and we are all supposed to dissect their long historical bullshit and form a moral opinion?! Fuck off and leave us all out of your fucking drama.
I voted you down because I think you are making a few errors here:
-
Not every Palestinian is Hamas. Hamas is a genocidal organization that wishes it could kill every Israeli, including civilians, but not every Palestinian believes in that. And not every Israeli agrees with IDF’s genocide, although a disappointingly high proportion of them do.
-
IDF is clearly more successful in their genocide of Palestinians than Hamas is in their attempted genocide of Israelis.
-
Even if Hamas and IDF both were equal, a lot of the English-speaking Internet (including many Lemmings here) are Americans, and pay American taxes, and therefore have an obligation to stop the genocide funded by our taxes, through money and weapons the US government sends to Israel. Even if both sides were equally bad, we (I and other Americans) recognize the need to stop Israel, but have no obligation to stop Hamas because we aren’t sending them the weapons in the first place.
Hamas is a genocidal organization that wishes it could kill every Israeli
Hamas is pretty careful to differentiate Jewish people, some of whom have lived in Palestine for millennia, and the Zionist project, which requires the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
Hamas is pretty careful to differentiate Jewish people
Ah, so what happened on October 7th?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel
Or is what happened okay because only ‘Zionists’ were killed?
Yes, attacking armed settlers, each of which is a trained soldier when you’re breaking out of a concentration camp is 100% OK.
You’d be crying for the poor german civilians killed during the Warsaw uprising. No questioning what they were doing around the warsaw ghetto.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re'im_music_festival_massacre
You are a monster.
According to reports published on 17 November, the police concluded based on interrogations and their investigations that Hamas did not know about the festival beforehand
It was between Hamas and the military objective. Israeli helicopters fired indiscriminately on the festival-goers so there’s no high-ground here.
But yeah if you attend a music festival outside a concentration camp, you deserve what you get. In a just world, Zone Of Interest ends with the happy families outside the camp getting massacred by its inhabitants.
Thank you for being one if the few that rip into Hamas at the same time as calling Israel out. I disagree on downvoting them as they contributed to the conversation, but points don’t matter.
On point 1, outside of a few extremists I don’t think anyone considers all of Palestine to be a part of Hamas - its just how we talk.
America isn’t becoming a backwards, puritan and corrupt country - the Republicans are and they held the power. But we don’t say that, we just say America is turning to shit. China doesn’t have aggressive expansionist goals, the CCP does. Russia isn’t a warmongering state, Putin and his running party are.
On point 1, outside of a few extremists I don’t think anyone considers all of Palestine to be a part of Hamas
“We’re liberating the Palestinian people from Hamas” is a zionist talking point.
Most of the other Palestinian parties, some of which have literal had gun battles with Hamas have started working with them since Oct 7. The PLFP knows more about what’s good for the future of the Palestinian people than either of us, and they’re willing to work with Hamas.
America isn’t becoming a backwards, puritan and corrupt country
I mean it kinda always has been. The government has always been much more reactionary than the people, but it’s always been a puritan country with legalized corruption, going as far back as Washington passing taxes to give his distilleries competitive advantage. I can link you some free history books on America, is there any time period that interests you?
China…
The CPC has overwhelming support from the population, it does a better job of representing the people than most western democracies, evidenced by greatest increase in living standards for a large country in history. Do you think it’s more likely the people have aggressive expansionist goals, or that you have an incomplete understanding?
Russia isn’t a warmongering state
Russia is a bourgeoisie democracy, if Putin and his party didn’t do what the Russian bourgeoisie wanted, they’d put someone else in power. The state is warmongering, the people aren’t.
On point 1, outside of a few extremists I don’t think anyone considers all of Palestine to be a part of Hamas
“We’re liberating the Palestinian people from Hamas” is a zionist talking point. Learn to recognize that pattern when it’s used to justify action against other countries; eg sanctions against Cuba, Syria, Iran, North Korea, which primarily hurt the people.
See, I never said anything about liberation, support or justification, only that Palestine is not Hamas, yet I’ve been downvoted to crap. You are right on the patterns from those who wish to justify - did you also consider the patterns of “if you’re not with us you’re the enemy” and “everyone is against us”?
Most of the other Palestinian parties, some of which have literal had gun battles with Hamas have started working with them since Oct 7. The PLFP knows more about what’s good for the future of the Palestinian people than either of us, and they’re willing to work with Hamas.
Hamas has been defined as a terrorist organization for years, not sure where Israel is currently sitting (as recognized by intl bodies). Regarding this conflict, I just hope that everyone on both sides acting beyond the accepted scope are held accountable by intl courts or their own people.
America isn’t becoming a backwards, puritan and corrupt country
I mean it kinda always has been. The government has always been much more reactionary than the people, but it’s always been a puritan country with legalized corruption, going as far back as Washington passing taxes to give his distilleries competitive advantage. I can link you some free history books on America, is there any time period that interests you?
Studied that one from an intl relations perspective. Parts of them I 100% agree with you, however believe these parts have blocked the underlying drives to reform. No thanks on history - im studying intl relations and armed conflict and already got ~100 readings this semester.
China…
The CPC has overwhelming support from the population, it does a better job of representing the people than most western democracies, evidenced by greatest increase in living standards for a large country in history. Do you think it’s more likely the people have aggressive expansionist goals, or that you have an incomplete understanding?
I would argue the source material. Covid showed us that many countries would happily lie on their own reports to present a better picture to the intl community - China especially. Think like religion in the states - they may have a major religious population but how many keep the beliefs for fear of alienating themselves, indoctrination or because its what you’re meant to do?
Russia isn’t a warmongering state
Russia is a bourgeoisie democracy, if Putin and his party didn’t do what the Russian bourgeoisie wanted, they’d put someone else in power. The state is warmongering, the people aren’t.
Sorry, bad choice of words. The country Russia and its people aren’t, the state and govt are.
Because God forbid anyone in this conflict be held responsible for their own actions, rather than blaming everything on who came before them.
You know what, maybe don’t steal people’s land and murder them and they won’t have to defend themselves?
Quick question- going back as far as we currently know - is the land you are living on right now stolen from someone?
-
