• D61 [any]@hexbear.net
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    2 months ago

    God’s an unfalsifiable claim, so there really isn’t anything that could test that hypothesis.

    Pretty much any scientific test/discovery that counters anything in a religious text whose adherents view the text as completely truthful and literal. But sciencey stuff might not have much of an effect on religious folks who view their texts less literally.

    But anyways… heliocentrism, germ theory, gravity, evolution through natural selection, probably a huge chunk of the field of archeology, plate tectonics, radiometric dating, probably the written language at various points in human history (but that’s not really a discovery), trans species organ transplants, decoding DNA, direct genetic engineering, CRISPR, radio telescopy.

        • HoChiMint [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          2 months ago

          You are just repeating a myth. A quick look from wikipedia:

          Logicians and philosophers of logic reject the notion that it is intrinsically impossible to prove negative claims.[11][12][13][14][15][10][16][17] Philosophers Steven D. Hale and Stephen Law state that the phrase “you cannot prove a negative” is itself a negative claim that would not be true if it could be proven true.[10][18] Many negative claims can be rewritten into logically equivalent positive claims (for example, “No Jewish person was at the party” is logically equivalent to “Everyone at the party was a gentile”).[19] In formal logic and mathematics, the negation of a proposition can be proven using procedures such as modus tollens and reductio ad absurdum.[15][10] In empirical contexts (such as the evaluating the existence or nonexistence of unicorns), inductive reasoning is often used for establishing the plausibility of a claim based on observed evidence.[20][10][21] Though inductive reasoning may not provide absolute certainty about negative claims, this is only due to the nature of inductive reasoning; inductive reasoning provides proof from probability rather than certainty. Inductive reasoning also does not provide absolute certainty about positive claims.[19][10]

  • lemmefixdat4u@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    It wasn’t any particular scientific discovery that weakened religion. It was the popularity of science fiction that did it. As Arthur C. Clarke put it, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” People can now imagine how miracles are done without invoking anything supernatural. We might not have the tech to do it yet, but we have a pretty good idea of potential methods. That has placed a lot of “creator god” religions under pressure. Create life? Tech will eventually do it. Create a world? Sure, tech again. Given enough tech, a solar system can be spawned. Water into wine? We’re halfway there with Kool-Aid. We already have vimanas (those ancient Hindu flying vehicles). We call them airplanes or helicopters. We can destroy a whole city with a single weapon. So why should we worship a supreme being who supposedly did those things?

    Assuming we can conquer poverty, religions that survive will be centered around improving the human condition. Worshipping dieties will eventually fall by the wayside. It will still be a long process. You can’t dispel faith with reason and facts. And people in poverty tend to embrace religion because it gives them comfort and hope that things will be better in the afterlife.

  • Ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    2 months ago

    I’ll quote Tim Minchin here

    "If you wanna watch telly, you should watch Scooby Doo
    That show was so cool
    Because every time there was a church with a ghoul
    Or a ghost in a school
    They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
    The fucking janitor or the dude who ran the waterslide
    Because throughout history
    Every mystery
    Ever solved has turned out to be
    Not magic"
    
    • lars@lemmy.sdf.org
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      2 months ago

      Like one of my faves of his

      Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proved to work? Medicine.

  • TerminalEncounter [she/her]@hexbear.net
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    2 months ago

    Science and religion are often compatible, I know of some Hindu thinkers (for example) who say scientific knowledge is to be taken as truth and religious truth should not contradict it - just that this scientific knowledge cannot explain the whole mysteries of the cosmos. You might be aware of “the god of the gaps” and arguments like that, or that God somehow created the universe using the laws of physics as we understand them. Historically, scientific thought and religious thought were often united and people pursued science and philosophy due to attempting to understand God (like many Islamic scholars in the 7th century or like Renee Descartes who ultimately sought to prove the existence of God by pure reasoning). Science as a complete system of belief without some religious aspect is actually a fairly recent phenomenon that likely had very little to do with any particular scientific discovery.

    Indeed, science can do very little to explain why things happen. It’s great at explaining how - e.g. science is great at explaining how fire burns or how a calculator can display an answer but it can be iffy on why. Now, “why” fire burns is probably more of a malformed question like what’s north of the north pole but we’re human, we like to ask why and seek purpose. Meaning makers.

    The decline of religiosity wasn’t really driven by science showing biblical stories weren’t real, it’s a process driven by material reality and class relations. Although many people considered themselves Christian or religious in the west, they were very Deist and didn’t think God had much influence with the world apart from answering paradoxes like what was the primum movens etc.

    Going further back, religion wasn’t a choice or something to reason to - it was just your life and your community. In medieval Europe, you didn’t really reason your way into a system of beliefs they all tied together into an economic system called the feudal mode of production. You just were a Christian and so was everyone you knew. Maybe some monks debated some esoteric aspects of theology but most people just lived their lives. This lasted for a while through to the Enlightenment and the emergence of capitalism in the 17th century. Except for some malcontents and rebels, people still didn’t reason towards being Christian, say. It was just your life - more like a hangover from that older mode of production and social cohesion than something necessary to maintaining capitalism.

    Fast forward to the actual decline of religiosity and rise of spiritual none-of-the-aboves and nothing-in-particular. This was a process started in the mid 20th century (not really in WW1 which was conceived often as a holy or religious war by the soldiers and officer class including miracles and appearances of angels and so on). In reaction to the rise of consumerism and individualism - now religion became a choice or affectation! This is where we start to see the irreligious begin their massive growth but especially by the beginning of the 00s. It’s tempting to say Quantum Mechanics, GR, a scientific basis for cosmological origins like the big bang are responsible for the loss of religion - but in my view, these just coincided due to a third cause (that of economic changes and the settling in of mature capitalism).

    • M68040 [they/them]@hexbear.net
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      2 months ago

      I’m curious as to how people toughed it out despite most christian religious institutions being so uniformly corrupt and plain irritating. Shit, the crowd FSTDT dunks on, american politicians, and internet theology were all it took for me to get so deeply disillusioned I wanted to just cut strike everything from my mind, regardless of who’s right or wrong. Merely not having other options to a point where leaving is unthinkable? Fear of reprisal from legal and cultural consequences?

      Then again, I suppose at that point they would’ve just shifted to a different, less institution-focused denomination instead of just saying “fuck the whole thing” like I did. It wasn’t a matter of the facts, it was a matter of me being fucking sick of them.

    • ananas@sopuli.xyz
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      2 months ago

      There have been plenty of discoveries opposed by religion X. Those historically do not have significant impact on prevalence of such a religion.

      I do think answers explaining why any answer to the original question suffers from logical fallacies are equally good to those that do try to get to the OP’s intent, and I think it is good to have both. I do think the literal answers are more “straight” (and I tend to go to the literate mode when talking about science), so that’s what I went up with.

  • Spendrill@lemm.ee
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    2 months ago

    Letter from Charles Darwin to Asa Gray (22nd May 1860)

    With respect to the theological view of the question; this is always painful to me.— I am bewildered.— I had no intention to write atheistically. But I own that I cannot see, as plainly as others do, & as I shd wish to do, evidence of design & beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.

    Source

    • M68040 [they/them]@hexbear.net
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      2 months ago

      On that note, what’s up with the obligate coprophagy of the koala? And their famously smooth brains? I’d make the koala, were it I in the high seat, but a kind and caring creator wouldn’t.

      • TerminalEncounter [she/her]@hexbear.net
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        2 months ago

        Some herbivores can’t digest their food all the way, cows get around it by having more than one stomach and also chewing their cud (vomiting up from first stomach and rechewing). Rabbits do the same thing as koalas, partially digest their food and eat their poop.

  • Delusional@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    Do we really need a scientific discovery to prove an existence that doesn’t exist? I think the proof that’s required is proof that God does exist and until that comes about, religion is clearly just a man made construct for the purpose of power and control.

    Besides, I’ve given clear scientific examples to religious people before and they simply stated that it exists that way because god created it that way which is just the dumbest fucking thinking imaginable. You can’t help those people.

  • Todd Bonzalez@lemm.ee
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    2 months ago

    Religion exists for a number of reasons, but the primary purpose it serves an individual is as a foundation for their overall worldview.

    “Faith” as many call it, serves to answer questions we don’t have answers to.

    Where did we come from? Why are we here? What happens after we die?

    Religion gives us comforting answers to these questions, and as these questions are ultimately unanswerable, can do so in perpetuity.

    Religion has also tried to answer questions that we didn’t yet have answers for.

    What are the sun, moon, and stars? Why are there tides? Why does it rain?

    God was long accepted as the source of these things, and prayer was thought to be the best way have any influence.

    But today we have answered basically all the major questions. We have a working model of the entire solar system, down to the weather on other planets. We figured out how to turn rocks into computers. All that’s left is the unanswerable.

    As for where we come from, we’ve filled in a lot of gaps. Evolution is now the accepted answer for where Humans came from, now the question is where life itself came from, and if there’s life outside of Earth (and how much).

    Philosophy has given us plenty of options for what our purpose is. There are plenty of ways to wrap your mind around your own identity without turning to the supernatural.

    And our study of anatomy and neurology suggests that our conscious self ceases to exist after death, the only thing standing in the way of that belief is the very human tendency to be in denial of our own mortality.

  • MagicShel@programming.dev
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    2 months ago

    Religion is deliberately non-falsifiable. No matter what scientific proof you can come up with, at the end of the day they just say God is fucking with us burying skeletons of creatures that never existed and such.

    The fact that it needs to be constructed that way is frankly all the proof I need to toss religion in the garbage, but everyone isn’t so cavalier about the disposition of their “immortal soul.”

    Honestly immortality and the very nature of God are both abhorrent to me. If religion were true, the best I could hope for is to be cast into a lake of fire and be destroyed, so I kinda win either way. Worst case is all religion is wrong but so is atheism and I have to spend eternity with an entity who is less of a malicious cunt than the Abrahamic god.

    • m0darn@lemmy.ca
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      2 months ago

      Religion is deliberately non-falsifiable.

      I think it would be more accurate to say that the non-falsifiablity of religion has evolved as a result of a sort of natural selection. Essentially all the falsifiable religious beliefs have been falsified, and thus have trouble propagating.

  • bouh@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    What weakened religion is a long process going from the middle age to the modern world. It starts with the pope wars. It peaks with the religion wars in the XVIIth century. By this point the religious power was a political power like any other, but merely with a cultural hold on European populations. Which was the nail in the coffin.

    During this period, the Church radicalised itself as a defense mode. Which solidified the laïcal mindset of the Lumières. Basically the church entered a cultural war against science because it feared it would lose controle.

    Then the XIXth century happened. Monarchies got destroyed. And the Catholic Church got humiliated and destroyed as a political power. Socialism and communism appeared, and to state how progressive they were, they put the church in the same reactionary bag as the royalists.

    In the middle of this are the liberals who don’t care much about anything but profits. Si when democracy is on the rise, they are democrats. When royalty comes back, they praise the king. At least as long as they let them make good profits. And that’s what the church doesn’t let them do. Morale goes in the way of profit. It forbid slavery and exploitation. It’s against science. It promotes charity. That sucks balls for the liberals. But order is good, so why not being a believer but without the problems?

    It’s not science that made religion recess. It’s bad political decisions and alliances. Many renowned scientists were believers. Many still are. But somehow the religions are rejecting science because it doesn’t go into litteraly what their old fantasy book wrote. It’s a shame because religions could easily make a humanist evolution if they had the political will to do it.

    • StaySquared@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      You do realize you keep using the term, “religion” when you mean to use the term, “Christianity”… Not all religions are like Christianity. smh.

      • bouh@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        The title mention god with a capital G, which means it’s the religions of the Bible, which means European history of things. Context in small details.

        • StaySquared@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          Everything Westerners think they know about religion, they just refer to the ridiculous bs that we know as Christianity and the Holy Bible. “Because this religion is fallible, so too must all the other religions be.”

          Christianity is to, “The Flintstones” as Islam is to Harvard University. Not even on the same plane.

  • A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    The most reliable way to lose faith isn’t through science, it’s reading their holy text.

    In general, nothing about science ever shakes a theist’s faith, and I doubt it ever will. Reason being: the moment science breaks new ground, religion retreats further back into the unknown. As long as there is an unknown, theists will have something to take shelter from.

    • kava@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      I don’t think it’s taking shelter as much as trying to find an answer to something that has no answer.

      For example Eistein I don’t think was trying to take shelter from reality. He wanted to look at reality as deeply as possible and he managed to peek through and see more than almost anyone ever had before.

      But he still believed in a God. This is one of those reasons I always call myself an agnostic instead of atheist.

      In a practical sense, I’m an atheist. I don’t think Jesus turned water into wine or the Buddha achieved enlightenment and entered a higher plane of existence or whatever.

      But I acknowledge there might be supernatural or supranatural items / phenomenon/ or even beings that we can’t ever fully understand.

      • A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Einstein believed in “Spinoza’s god”, which is essentially just nature and the laws that govern the universe. It’s not the same as believing in an anthropomorphic God and putting faith in scripture.

        This is one of those reasons I always call myself an agnostic instead of atheist.

        Those aren’t mutually exclusive terms. “Agnostic” answers whether you know a god exists, and “atheist” answers whether you believe a god exists.

        I don’t know of any gods, and I don’t believe any exist, so I’m an agnostic atheist.

  • Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    2 months ago

    ‭Psalms 19:1-2

    “The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge.”

    • A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      ##Old Testament

      #####Exodus 21:20-21 (NIV):

      “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.”


      ##New Testament

      #####Ephesians 6:5 (NIV):

      “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ”

      #####1 Timothy 6:1 (NIV):

      “All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare of their slaves.”

      • Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        2 months ago

        Yep. Real scripture, really in the Bible and needs to be understood.

        Those scriptures are not really germane to the question though. I understand the scriptures you posted might seem strange.

        Remember that the entire nation of Israel were slaves for hundreds of years in Egypt when they were brought out by God, rescued from that slavery, and set free.

        ‭1 Corinthians 7:21-23 NIV‬ “Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.”

        Galatians 5:1 “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.”

        Then there’s Philemon, an entire book of the Bible dedicated to Paul’s letter to a slave owner looking for kindness when returning an escaped slave who converted to Christianity.

        The Bible can be confusing and even contradictory at times when speaking from this or that person’s point of view. We have Sunday schools where we wrestle with questions in an open forum, and I’m sure you’d be welcome as long as you were not antagonistic.

        • Wild Bill@midwest.social
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          2 months ago

          The bible is filled with contradictory passages. How can Ephesians 6:5 and Galatians 5:1 coexist as part of an allegedly true belief system?

        • A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          That’s right. Then after the Israelites were freed, Moses, claiming to be speaking for God, gave them permission to take slaves of their own from the nations around them. Before that, they were told how merciless they could be when bludgeoning those slaves.

          The Bible portrays this as moral behavior, and the excuses you’ve given me aren’t convincing. I don’t think there is any excuse for it, but I’m all ears if you want to give it a shot.