Not if you say things like “luck with women”. No one is going to see value in you until you see value in yourself. It sounds like a bullshit platitude but it’s actually true.
No one is going to see value in you until you see value in yourself.
My parents did and still do. They are not ideal role models, but like many parents, they value me without me needing to value myself first. If I lived in a socialist state, I would expect community there to be much the same. We here are about valuing human life intrinsically, are we not?
Those are your parents, though. I was talking about OP’s use of language. “Having luck with women” implies one has to be lucky to find a woman to want them, when in fact women (like all people) want that in which they see value. If OP thinks they have to be lucky rather than someone who is actually desirable and people want, i.e. why aren’t women the ones who need luck to be with him, then that tells me that OP might be having self-esteem issues that won’t be fixed with a girlfriend or sex (talking from personal experience). They will only be solved by OP working on himself until he finds himself or thinks about himself as desirable.
So, there are a few things that come to mind for me on this.
If we are talking about capitalist society where people are raised to view relationships as transactional, then sure, we have to be grounded in what we’re dealing with there, that expecting people to value others intrinsically when they may not is probably not going to get what we want in life.
Luck does factor into it some. I don’t see how not. Romantic feelings can just sort of happen and people aren’t always into the ones who are going to be the best to have around. Cause it’s feelings. Plenty of romantic relationships are a thing in spite of having aspects to them that are unhealthy. So I think it’s safe to say some people are finding love just fine, in spite of what ails them, even if it’s sometimes a bit of a mess.
I struggle to see the connection between viewing yourself as desirable and being desirable to others. As a mental health issue, I definitely want people to value themselves, don’t get me wrong, and I’d be right there with you saying it’s important for a healthy relationship. I have a post in this thread of my own that touches on that. But where my mind goes is to confidence and how people say confidence is attractive. Supposing that is generally true, what if you do value yourself, but you don’t actually project that outwardly? Maybe you have internalized certain ideas about humility and so you downplay yourself in presentation in order to feel more morally upright. Now compare this to a narcissist, who can be extremely insecure, yet still project confidence and greatly impress upon others what their value is. Unless the person experiencing this from the outside is able to get deeper info behind the scenes, will being more attracted in relation to how much a person values themself cause them to go for the person who values themself or the person who projects value of themself? I would think they’d go for the 2nd. This is not to say everyone who projects value of themself is secretly “bad” - far from it. It’s just an example to illustrate outward vs. inward. That working on yourself is important, getting the support you need is important, but I don’t think people should be expecting that it will translate to being more attractive to others.
If people are attracted to specific things, they have to be able to perceive those things to feel attraction towards them. This can go very poorly, granted, when people take this line of thought to a shallow and marketing-obsessed level and lose sight of authentic connection (I think of the movie Hitch for a fictional example of this). I just don’t want people thinking that others have mind-reading to be turned off toward them because they secretly have some insecurities and the only way others will ever love them is if they first resolve those insecurities. Even openly stated insecurities can at times be endearing, depending on how it is said, who is doing the listening. We are all human, after all.
If we are talking about capitalist society where people are raised to view relationships as transactional, then sure
Seeing value in someone doesn’t have to be transactional. “Value” can be something as simple as a feeling of “I like to be around this person”. A person who is nice to be around is valuable.
what if you do value yourself, but you don’t actually project that outwardly?
People’s mental state affects their body language, their demeanor, and humans are pretty good at picking up on those cues. You might not be able to put it into words, but you can feel a person.
The “outward” can be having the confidence to approach someone. If you view yourself as lesser-than and think you need luck or some sort of “trick” to get with someone, then you might either be hesitant to approach a person or if you do approach them you’re doing it with the mentality of “I am bothering this person, but I hope they’re nice enough to talk to me”, as opposed to approaching someone with the mentality of “we’re equals, I am in fact creating an opportunity for both of us to meet each other because I have a feeling we might be good together”.
Seeing value in someone doesn’t have to be transactional. “Value” can be something as simple as a feeling of “I like to be around this person”. A person who is nice to be around is valuable.
Right, but why does one person “like to be around another”. That part is important. There’s no such thing as a person who is universally nice to be around. “Nice to be around” can be many things to many people. For just one example, a hyperactive extrovert might be the life of the party to one person and an annoying and draining to another.
People’s mental state affects their body language, their demeanor, and humans are pretty good at picking up on those cues. You might not be able to put it into words, but you can feel a person.
The “outward” can be having the confidence to approach someone. If you view yourself as lesser-than and think you need luck or some sort of “trick” to get with someone, then you might either be hesitant to approach a person or if you do approach them you’re doing it with the mentality of “I am bothering this person, but I hope they’re nice enough to talk to me”, as opposed to approaching someone with the mentality of “we’re equals, I am in fact creating an opportunity for both of us to meet each other because I have a feeling we might be good together”.
Overall, this sounds to me like law of attraction magical thinking type stuff. Although it is true that a person’s mental state can be expressed outwardly, some people become very adept at hiding it. As an example, consider masking in people on the autism spectrum: https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/behaviour/masking
Some people go to great lengths to hide what’s going on inside (sometimes without even realizing they’re doing it) and sure, they’re not going to hide everything, but I see no truism here that internal will be picked up on externally. People can’t mind-read. They can make educated guesses based on past experience and infer from it. If they know a person really well, they can learn various tells. They can also make (sometimes drastically incorrect) judgments based on how a person seems to land within their worldview and experiences. People pick up on stuff, but what they pick up on is not necessarily reliable or consistent from person to person. The parable of the blind men and the elephant comes to mind here.
Not if you say things like “luck with women”. No one is going to see value in you until you see value in yourself. It sounds like a bullshit platitude but it’s actually true.
My parents did and still do. They are not ideal role models, but like many parents, they value me without me needing to value myself first. If I lived in a socialist state, I would expect community there to be much the same. We here are about valuing human life intrinsically, are we not?
Those are your parents, though. I was talking about OP’s use of language. “Having luck with women” implies one has to be lucky to find a woman to want them, when in fact women (like all people) want that in which they see value. If OP thinks they have to be lucky rather than someone who is actually desirable and people want, i.e. why aren’t women the ones who need luck to be with him, then that tells me that OP might be having self-esteem issues that won’t be fixed with a girlfriend or sex (talking from personal experience). They will only be solved by OP working on himself until he finds himself or thinks about himself as desirable.
So, there are a few things that come to mind for me on this.
If we are talking about capitalist society where people are raised to view relationships as transactional, then sure, we have to be grounded in what we’re dealing with there, that expecting people to value others intrinsically when they may not is probably not going to get what we want in life.
Luck does factor into it some. I don’t see how not. Romantic feelings can just sort of happen and people aren’t always into the ones who are going to be the best to have around. Cause it’s feelings. Plenty of romantic relationships are a thing in spite of having aspects to them that are unhealthy. So I think it’s safe to say some people are finding love just fine, in spite of what ails them, even if it’s sometimes a bit of a mess.
I struggle to see the connection between viewing yourself as desirable and being desirable to others. As a mental health issue, I definitely want people to value themselves, don’t get me wrong, and I’d be right there with you saying it’s important for a healthy relationship. I have a post in this thread of my own that touches on that. But where my mind goes is to confidence and how people say confidence is attractive. Supposing that is generally true, what if you do value yourself, but you don’t actually project that outwardly? Maybe you have internalized certain ideas about humility and so you downplay yourself in presentation in order to feel more morally upright. Now compare this to a narcissist, who can be extremely insecure, yet still project confidence and greatly impress upon others what their value is. Unless the person experiencing this from the outside is able to get deeper info behind the scenes, will being more attracted in relation to how much a person values themself cause them to go for the person who values themself or the person who projects value of themself? I would think they’d go for the 2nd. This is not to say everyone who projects value of themself is secretly “bad” - far from it. It’s just an example to illustrate outward vs. inward. That working on yourself is important, getting the support you need is important, but I don’t think people should be expecting that it will translate to being more attractive to others.
If people are attracted to specific things, they have to be able to perceive those things to feel attraction towards them. This can go very poorly, granted, when people take this line of thought to a shallow and marketing-obsessed level and lose sight of authentic connection (I think of the movie Hitch for a fictional example of this). I just don’t want people thinking that others have mind-reading to be turned off toward them because they secretly have some insecurities and the only way others will ever love them is if they first resolve those insecurities. Even openly stated insecurities can at times be endearing, depending on how it is said, who is doing the listening. We are all human, after all.
Seeing value in someone doesn’t have to be transactional. “Value” can be something as simple as a feeling of “I like to be around this person”. A person who is nice to be around is valuable.
People’s mental state affects their body language, their demeanor, and humans are pretty good at picking up on those cues. You might not be able to put it into words, but you can feel a person.
The “outward” can be having the confidence to approach someone. If you view yourself as lesser-than and think you need luck or some sort of “trick” to get with someone, then you might either be hesitant to approach a person or if you do approach them you’re doing it with the mentality of “I am bothering this person, but I hope they’re nice enough to talk to me”, as opposed to approaching someone with the mentality of “we’re equals, I am in fact creating an opportunity for both of us to meet each other because I have a feeling we might be good together”.
Right, but why does one person “like to be around another”. That part is important. There’s no such thing as a person who is universally nice to be around. “Nice to be around” can be many things to many people. For just one example, a hyperactive extrovert might be the life of the party to one person and an annoying and draining to another.
Overall, this sounds to me like law of attraction magical thinking type stuff. Although it is true that a person’s mental state can be expressed outwardly, some people become very adept at hiding it. As an example, consider masking in people on the autism spectrum: https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/behaviour/masking
Some people go to great lengths to hide what’s going on inside (sometimes without even realizing they’re doing it) and sure, they’re not going to hide everything, but I see no truism here that internal will be picked up on externally. People can’t mind-read. They can make educated guesses based on past experience and infer from it. If they know a person really well, they can learn various tells. They can also make (sometimes drastically incorrect) judgments based on how a person seems to land within their worldview and experiences. People pick up on stuff, but what they pick up on is not necessarily reliable or consistent from person to person. The parable of the blind men and the elephant comes to mind here.