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Signal isn’t federated; it is decentralized [1]. Though, for all practical purposes, I would generally argue that it is centralized.
References
but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all.
The fact that we have a telephone system that works with separate providers contradicts this sentiment. If I want to pick up the phone and talk to my cousin’s puppy in New Zealand, I can do that without creating an account on his provider’s service.
I don’t understand why we’ve forgotten this as a society. Yes, it was difficult to upgrade the phone systems over the past century, but it’s worth it in my opinion. I really wish we’d start seeing government regulation that says “you should be able to talk to someone on a service without having to create an account on said service.” I thought the DMA would do this, but sadly, Whatsapp still requires an account to talk to people using that service. Very disappointing.
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good
My comment wasn’t protesting the use of Signal; it was rather clarifying the misinformation in OP’s post — ie misinformation that Signal is a federated service.
Yeah, Moxie has openly shot down the idea of adding federation to Signal, and I’ve never heard them claim Signal was decentralized.
Matrix is federated, distributed, and decentralized.
XMPP is federated and decentralized.
Matrix is […] distributed […].
It is? How so?
Matrix servers keep a copy of any remote room an account on the server has joined, and it’s possible to recreate a room from the copies held on different servers. There are more details I don’t remember, but at a high level that’s how it’s distributed.
Storing messages of remote rooms in addition to local rooms is why people complain about the storage requirements of Matrix servers. They don’t realize it’s distributed.
Interesting — I hadn’t considered it that way.
Signal is hostile to third party clients like Molly.im as well
That’s not true. Moxie Marlinespike only had a problem with a fork called “LibreSignal” because it was using their name. He didn’t want users to confuse the apps.
it’s decentralized
No it’s not. From literally your own comment:
Signal relies on centralized servers
For a decentralized messenger use https://delta.chat/
it’s decentralized
No it’s not. From literally your own comment:
Signal relies on centralized servers
I was using “decentralized” to mean that there isn’t centralized control over ownership of the service in general — eg anyone can spin up their own server (impractical, imo, pushing it more towards being centralized) and people can use it (making it decentralized, imo (Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do think my usage of the term is appropriate in this way.)), but people who use that server can only communicate with that server (making it not federated). But yes it could still be said to be centralized in that it operates on a client-server model [1].
This is more an argument of definitions, though. I’m not trying to claim anything in bad faith.
References
- Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
- This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
That’s just open source, not decentralized. I can’t find a definition of decentralization that would even make it vague. From Wikipedia:
Decentralization is the process by which the activities of an organization, particularly those related to planning and decision-making, are distributed or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group and given to smaller factions within it.
Signal has a central authoritative server and to use it with any other server you have to modify the source code.
That’s just open source, not decentralized.
Depending on exactly how said open source development is occuring, I could argue that open source development is an example of decentralization. It may even be an example of federation (all depending on licensing and development medium imo).
Decentralization is the process by which the activities of an organization, particularly those related to planning and decision-making, are distributed or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group and given to smaller factions within
Imo this fits my usage of the term — Signal can be broken up into many isolated servers all offering the same service.
- Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
Yeah. I love Signal but it doesn’t belong in that list. Dansup (creator of loops and pixelfed) is apparently working on “Sup” that will be a decentralized alternative to whatsapp.
sup is how I update my FreeBSD /usr/src tree! Twenty years ago.
To me this person sounds like they have too many big projects at once. I wish them success tho
Yeah… I’m bit afraid of “kbin Ernest Effect” (not sure what a proper term is) where personal issues pile up and the sole head developer just disappears.
Haven’t followed dansup much but from what I understand he is much more open to pull requests and listening to the community, but time will tell. Right now I appreciate and love his effort, giving, and the impact on fediverse he is brining.
The kickstarter was a good idea.
Given that I’ve waited 3 weeks to join his smaller instance of pixelfed.art, I can tell things are already piling up. I am hoping the kickstarter does help.
Damn. Yeah let’s hope he can hire some help…
XMPP is an established federated messaging app with encryption.
There isn’t much information about “Sup”, but if I had to guess it could be that dansup is making sup app with XMPP(rotocol) as the messaging protocol.
That would be rad if true ^^
Let’s hope so! :)
Originally it was supposed to be ActivityPub based, but recently they posted something about it being for XMPP, Matrix and IRC as well 🤷♂️ Maybe they decided to fork Pidgin 😂
IMHO Sup. isn’t going to happen. They will have their hands more than full with Pixelfed’s new popularity and maybe Loops.
Oh! didn’t know that, I thought activitypub can’t be used for secure messaging. Lol really hope its XMPP!
Yeah I didn’t take it that seriously when it was announced right now. Just hope pixelfed stays afloat amidst the user flood and hope he can publish loops as open source soon!
Delta.chat already exists
Matrix?
SimpleX?
Bro put citations in his lemmy comment 💀
That person isn’t fucking around.
I do my best to cite any claim that I make. I would encourage others to do the same.
I wish more people did that ngl 💀
I wish Boost understood the collapsible spoilers.
On my client, it’s all expanded and I see all the formatting characters. It looks/works great in a browser though.
I wish Boost understood the collapsible spoilers.
On my client, it’s all expanded and I see all the formatting characters.
Ah dang, that’s good to know (though I’m not sure what to do as an alternative) — I was unaware that the collapsible spoilers weren’t supported on Boost. I guess that means that Lemmy’s markdown formatting hasn’t entirely been standardized across the service. I personally have encountered some inconsistency on the Tesseract UI with CommonMark Autolink [2] formatting where the autolinks don’t even render [1].
I recommend reporting this to the Boost devs to improve Markdown feature compatibility between them and the Lemmy UI.
References
- “Kalcifer” @[email protected]. To: [“Happy #GlobalSwitchDay”. @[email protected]. “Fediverse” [email protected]. Tesseract. sh.itjust.works. Published: 2025-02-01T07:08:40Z. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:40Z. https://tesh.itjust.works/post/sh.itjust.works/32046509.]. Published: 2025-02-01T09:20:14Z. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:42Z. https://sh.itjust.works/post/32046509/16425699.
- Raw Text:
Signal isn't federated ^[1][2][3.1]^; it's decentralized ^[1][2][3.2]^. Though, for all practical purposes, I would generally argue that it's centralized. ::: spoiler References 1. Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. <https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server>. - This is the source code for the server that Signal uses. 2. "Signal (software)". Wikipedia. Published: 2025-01-06T09:34Z. Accessed: 2025-02-1T09:30Z. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software)>. - ¶"Architecture". ¶"Servers". > Signal relies on centralized servers that are maintained by Signal Messenger. In addition to routing Signal's messages, the servers also facilitate the discovery of contacts who are also registered Signal users and the automatic exchange of users' public keys. […] 3. "Reflections: The ecosystem is moving". moxie0. Signal Blog. Published: 2016-05-10. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:40Z. <https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/>. 1. ¶5. to ¶"Stuck in time". ¶3-6 > One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service. Nothing about any of the protocols we’ve developed requires centralization; it’s entirely possible to build a federated Signal Protocol-based messenger, but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all. […] [interoperable protocols] [have] taken us pretty far, but it’s undeniable that once you federate your protocol, it becomes very difficult to make changes. And right now, at the application level, things that stand still don’t fare very well in a world where the ecosystem is moving. […] Early on, I thought we’d federate Signal once its velocity had subsided. Now I realize that things will probably never slow down, and if anything the velocity of the entire landscape seems to be steadily increasing. 2. ¶"Stuck in time". "Federation and control". ¶6. > An open source infrastructure for a centralized network now provides almost the same level of control as federated protocols, without giving up the ability to adapt. If a centralized provider with an open source infrastructure ever makes horrible changes, those that disagree have the software they need to run their own alternative instead. It may not be as beautiful as federation, but at this point it seems that it will have to do. :::- Rendered:
- In the rendered text there are no links; however, there should be links at the end, as is shown by the CommonMark autolinks in the raw text.
- Raw Text:
- “CommonMark Spec”. John MacFarlane. CommonMark. Version: 0.31.2. Published: 2024-01-28. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:51Z. https://spec.commonmark.org/0.31.2/#uri-autolink.
- §6.5 “Autolinks”. ¶2.
A URI autolink consists of
<, followed by an absolute URI followed by. It is parsed as a link to the URI, with the URI as the link’s label.
- §6.5 “Autolinks”. ¶2.
- “Kalcifer” @[email protected]. To: [“Happy #GlobalSwitchDay”. @[email protected]. “Fediverse” [email protected]. Tesseract. sh.itjust.works. Published: 2025-02-01T07:08:40Z. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:40Z. https://tesh.itjust.works/post/sh.itjust.works/32046509.]. Published: 2025-02-01T09:20:14Z. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:42Z. https://sh.itjust.works/post/32046509/16425699.
Same with Sync, unfortunately.
Dang 😕. See my comment for a related response.
I recommend reporting the bug to the Sync devs to fix their Markdown formatting to improve feature compatibility between them and the Lemmy UI.
Based.
Great graphic! The only things I use on this list are reddit and youtube. Trying peertube now. I’m confused about whatsapp and facebook messenger - don’t people just use the texting app that comes with their phone?
Switching from WhatsApp to any other messaging service isn’t a realistic option for quite many places. I’d be more than willing to switch but of all the people in my contacts (including my entire customer base) there’s like 3 people using Signal but every single one of them has WhatsApp. Even the 60+ year olds.
There is always SMS for these.
This doesn’t help.
I got my family out after some high profile data breaches on WhatsApp. We feel a lot safer sharing personal info over Signal and the switchover was painless. Even the video calls are great on signal.
There’s inertia, for sure, but once you highlight that some evil corp isn’t the one handling grandma’s inheritance data, it makes for a compelling case.
We all still have WhatsApp because we need to talk to the others. But our family chat only exists on Signal now.
Snubbing bluesky is a great way to get people to not take you seriously. When you’re making a recruitment thing like this you need to remember you’re trying to draw in people who don’t fully agree with you.
Bluesky isn’t federated as much as they pretend to be and say “they’re working on it”
It’s just another corporate social platform that will fall into the same thing
Psst, OP included Signal in this post which isn’t federated at all, so the argument of Bluesky not being “federated as much as they pretend to” is a bit irrelevant.
Ye no shit but I replied to a comment not the post. There’s already 5 comments saying that
Things I’ve learned: the people in this community hate bluesky on principle, their principles are insular and toxic, and they can’t read.
This is why people aren’t going to mastadon more than Bluesky; because y’all’re insufferable. I made the comment in context of the post, so why would you ignore it?
Okay my bad let me make another comment saying
“Signal isn’t federated”
There happy?
They use a different protocol from the “fediverse”.
The fact that you or anyone thinks that matters is part of the problem. Not every federated site needs to be federated with every other federated site. That’s half the point of federation.
why signal?
Because atm is the most adopted alternative but isn’t any better then SimpleX.
but it is not federated. that would be matrix
Feel like Matrix or Email would have made more sense as a federated service for communication, but get Signal is a lot more well known.
Also an entirely different thing, email is nothing alike to IMs.
How so? Seems like just a slightly different UI for the same thing to me?
You think email’s UI is only “slightly” different than the UI of chats? I disagree very strongly. The two are extremely different. Email is this weird amalgamation of messages and forums depending on how your client displays it and everyone in the email thread is using it. You can have arbitrarily styling in messages. You can send messages to whoever whenever. Chats are much more focused and linear by comparison.
Not sure what to say to that. Nobody in my group would consider classic email and IMs equivalent, unless you’re layering an extra UI layer on top like what the other commentor mentioned.
Agreed most others wouldn’t use email as a replacement for casual chat, but its always seemed like an arbitrary choice. So many people waste so much space in emails because they treat them like letters, so the biggest difference seems to be the culture around them rather than the medium itself. If people formatted all text messages as
"Hello Dear Friend,
Here is stuff to waste space.
Here’s what I actually want to say.
More extra stuff.
Sincerely, Walrus"
I doubt we would see that much of a difference between them.
They are treated like letters because they arent instant, like letters. Hell, some emails could take full minutes to send.
E-mail is an excellent protocol for messaging, see delta.chat
Oh sure, if you’re using something like that I can get behind it. But then you’re back to the network effect. Probably slightly mitigated since everybody has email, even if they’re not getting it in a pretty IM format and won’t be replying to it on the spot.
Friendly reminder that peertube can expose your IP address.
To stop it, disable “Help share videos being played” in your options
Could the software selection be more diverse? There’s also MBin/Piefed, and Misskey/Sharkey/Firefish/Akkoma/Iceshrimp. Just a suggestion tho. (obviously they can’t all fit in the image, but it would be nice to see an alternative to popular software like lemmy/mastodon.)
PS: Signal is not federated at all, it’s centralized. It should either be replaced with SimpleX or matrix/Jabber.
Could the software selection be more diverse?
Not if you want people to actually consider switching instead of feeling overwhelmed and confused.
If only there was a website that helps you choose, instead of inclining users to just use lemmy and only lemmy.world anyway. (also with mastodon and mastodon.social).
Overall i think more software choices are great but you are right in that it could repel users :/
Signal is better than WA tho.
True, i’ll take it over wa any day.
Unfortunately, I don’t know a single person who uses Friendica, and that is also, unfortunately, self-defeating because there’s no way I could convince them to go without more than just me using it.
Apparently it makes a good RSS feed aggregator if nothing else.
And that makes it a Facebook replacement how? Facebook is terrible and the only reason I ever go there is to check in on people I know. I don’t understand Friendica at all. I can get all the social interaction I need from Mastodon, BlueSky and Lemmy if my goal isn’t people I know and just like minded people.
Funny, when Facebook started there was almost no one I knew there either. It was its doom. It crashed and burned before it even got off the ground. Orkut still reigns supreme.
I’ve never heard of Orkut, the only Google social network I ever used was Google+. When I first heard about Facebook I couldn’t even sign up because my college wasn’t a supported .edu…lol and I guess the Facebook format/design isn’t inherently bad, just the algorithm is horrendous. There are more adds and post from suggested groups than people and groups I follow on my feed. Then the post from Threads a social network I don’t even use forced on me and adds in the notifications. It’s just a garbage experience and way of going about things. Although it’s still hard to see the point of an alternative that the people I know IRL aren’t on when I have Mastodon, BlueSky and Lemmy for like minded people.
The point is that you can invite the people in your life to try it out. Just like Facebook in the early days. Except it doesn’t have the hostile UX of Facebook.
Good point, thats the correct way to look at it.
Anyone know if loops has a good app out, or if there’s one in the works thats coming out soon?
The app is really bare bones. It’s also not federated (yet, but use a product for what it is right now, not what it promises to be).
Has potential but also dansup keeps running head-first into controversial takes.
My favourite Dansup line is " It’s coming this weekend" not sure when this weekend is supposed to come around tho.
From what I’ve seen on the loops discord he’s about to open source the app and self hosted backend real soon, he’s been reaching out for people to set up and test out the server code.
Same with federation, that’s not far away, I think he wants to test how the different instances connect to each other first before the wider federation.
He’s finally starting to look for coders to help him with the backend and app tho, so that’s a good start.
And I really do appreciate that. He’s doing some good stuff and really hope pixelfed and loops (and sup) continue on the momentum that they’ve got and gain a substantial enough Userbase that they’re really enjoyable to use. Just wanted to add the extra context because I think that’s relevant too!
He just really needs to let people help him more, he makes good stuff but it’s kinda obvious it’s getting a bit much for him sometimes, which is how we ended up with the stuff in your link lol.
A few times I’ve jumped in to the pixelfed discord before he split loops into its own one and he’d be in some crazy long rant, then you’d see him delete all his messages, dude needs a break or to delegate some of his work to the people who keep asking to help.
Good dude tho, just needs a rest I think, the tik tok thing kinda put some pressure on him to get it going quicker I think.
Oh, i see. Still interesting, thanks for the info
The app worked for me when I first downloaded it but hasn’t since
This should promote matrix, not signal
Unpopular Opinion Lemmy and PeerTube logo look ugly.
I like the Lemmy one, but peertubes logo looks like it’s gonna stab my eyeballs in my sleep
The colors in the peertube logo are pretty hideous.
They’re horrible
I think it’s just the colours for the peertube one. I like that it’s three individual play icons to signify the federation aspect, but the colours are just dull.
Yeah it’s an easy fix to update the colors, logo shape can remain.
Unpopular opinion: your opinion is not unpopular at all.
The Lemmy logo always looks so sad or angry to me. Wished he could look happier.
The only ones on the right I really like are signal and friendica. (I had never seen the friendica logo before. This is really well done whoever designed that. Good job.)
All the big guys of course can afford graphic design teams and marketing/PR research.
The notable exception for me is mastodon. While I’m still not a big fan of that logo either, it certainly looks better than the X logo. I’m guessing Musk DOGE’d his design teams in favor of some yes-men.
deleted by creator
Try Matrix or XMPP instead of signal
I miss Jabber so much. There was a brief time where my one XMPP client and an easy to install server could let me chat with everyone I knew, whether they were on ICQ, Y!, gchat, MSN, IRC, or AIM. We fucking HAD interoperability.
For the avid readers out there, bookwyrm is a fantastic alternative to goodreads.
Folks should also check out neodb.social . it’s good reads, letterboxd, and steam reviews all in one.
I’ve been looking for something to track my physical book, music, and game collections. An instance of this might work nicely. Thanks!
Yes it’s excellent!
It could be but I find the android app buggy (this month I’ve been using bookwyrm, GR, Open Reads, and The Story Graph to compare them all and still nothing is as smooth as GR. Plus bookwyrm has no apple app. I love where Bookwyrm is going but right now the switch is not the best
It doesn’t have an app, how is it buggy?
Might be talking about the Bookwyrm client on F-Droid?
I went back to check. This is correct. It’s the un official one in f-droid.
My bad!
Signal is not Fediverse! Element/Matrix is!
Absolutely, signal isn’t federated, but I don’t want my messaging app to be federated. I want my social media to be federated. Lemmy is good because it’s open. Signal is good because it’s shut.
No, Matrix is federated differently.
And Signal isn’t?!
Signal is centralised.
You now understood both my point and the OC’s, I hope.
Signal is not federated.
Bless your heart.
Element/matrix aren’t part of the fediverse, either. It doesn’t speak AP.
Are we claiming now that Activity Pub is the only protocol that we can use for the fediverse? I think XMPP is roughly 30 years old at this point, and I’m pretty sure Activity Pub is much younger than that. I could be wrong though.
But regardless, I don’t see why Activity Pub has to be the only protocol we accept to be considered a part of the fediverse. It’s not even like different AP implementations talk to each other all that well. My understanding is that Mastodon doesn’t federate that well with Lemmy, and I haven’t seen Loops or Pixelfed on Lemmy yet either.
I’d be happy to be corrected on any of this though, I haven’t looked too closely into exactly how AP works or how it’s supposed to interoperate with different applications.
I mean, yeah… the fediverse, specifically, are AP servers, which is why we don’t include diaspora for it.
It’s decentralized and federated, to be sure, just not the “fediverse”.
Fediverse is about federation. It’s not Activityverse. So yeah, email, Usenet, IRC, XMPP, Matrix… all Fediverse, all an antidote to corporate walled gardens.
Edit: not demeaning AP, it’s a great achievement and the services built upon it are a testament to its quality and forward-thinking.
I’m just saying that there’s deficiencies in those other networks. Just that they are different networks.
Now if an xmpp user can directly message or communicate with a Mastodon user… then they’d be both part of the “fediverse”.
I am a Lemmy user, can I message a Pixelfed user? All other AP users? Signal users?
Matrix is federated, Signal is not.
although it is federated, it isn’t apart of the fediverse, as it doesn’t use activitypub.
I’d argue it’s part of “the fediverse” but not “The Fediverse”.
Fair point, definitely still apart of the same style of platform but not the same protocol.
afaik ap is no hard requirement to be considerted fediverse
I’d like to argue that using AP is an inconsistent rule for membership. For example, Diaspora has been considered to be part of the fediverse from early on, but it doesn’t use AP.
I don’t really know where to draw the line. AP simply isn’t suitable for some applications, but it makes sense to include it for branding
I don’t know of anyone who include d*, accepting the tiny number of d* pods that also speak AP.
I mean, nostr is also NOT part of the fediverse, but another federated and decentralized network.
Both Wikipedia and fediverse.party consider Diaspora, and a handful of other (mostly defunct) protocols as being part of the fediverse.
I don’t really like the use of AP to be a qualification of being in the fediverse. There must be a better way to qualify a platform, even if it means that use of AP is a natural consequence.
afaik ap is not a hard requirement for being in the fediverse, matrix is often included because it has the same federation idea
Then email is a part of the fediverse? UUCP nets? IRC nets?
All federated, none speak AP.
I think a good working definition is “speaks the w3c standard AP”. Otherwise, its totally lost its meaning.
what about diaspora?
D* generally isn’t, excepting the few instances that also speak AP.
Don’t use Matrix the devs knew about sidechannel vulnerabilities and ignored them for years. This is peak negligence and should immediately disqualify you from touching anything security related.
You do not have a solution.
I do, use Signal if you care about privacy. They are the only game in town when it comes to reasonably secure chat software. Sure, I would prefer a federated alternative but I haven’t found one yet that is always end-to-end encrypted, open source, implements forward secrecy, and is user friendly enough to be used by my grandmother.
SimpleX is better, you don’t even need a phone number.
SimpleX is cool, but fails the “my grandmother can use it” requirement. Signal has the huge benefit that is just as easy as WhatsApp. With Simplex you have to invite each of your friends individually.
Scan a QR isn’t difficult, there are also tantum links
With Signal you just have to install the App and make an account to start chatting with your friends and family. SimpleX requires me to send a link or QR code to everybody I want to interact with. You will have a hard time convincing anyone to do that. Compare that to the first Twitter exodus, people chose Bluesky over Mastodon because picking a server was ‘difficult’. The average person doesn’t care about technology at all and will always pick the path of least resistance.
the author literally picked random projects from github tagged as matrix, without considering their prevalence or whether they are actually maintained etc.
if you actually look at % of impacted clients, it’s tiny.
meanwhile, it is very unclear that any sidechannel attack on a libolm based client is practical over the network (which is why we didn’t fix this years ago). After all, the limited primitives are commented on in the readme and https://github.com/matrix-org/olm/issues/3 since day 1.
From your link.
