So it’s a question of, is dad working? How much is his wage? If he leaves early infrequently does he earn less? Can mom take the stairs for a few weeks or months before/after giving birth? Are we close enough to friends they can help? Do we have a chute to get smelly diapers away from mom and baby? Can we afford disposable vs cloth diapers?
If it costs you more money to leave work, or get an ensuite, or hire somebody, or buy disposable, or you are priced out of every option, that’s not perfect that’s just one of a series of financial choices.
Right now they are priced out of all the options, ensuite seemed like the best one.
So that the eldest children get the privilege of raising their siblings? Of trading their own childhood for parentification by their selfish and ignorant parents?
Nah. Absolutely not. Having a bunch of kids all stuffed in some shitty apartment is not providing for them. Forcing existence on someone is not sharing some miracle of life; it’s rationalization from narcissistic parents who decided they were just going to do what they wanted, regardless of means, ability, or know how.
Then those shitty parents will forget how awful their children’s childhoods were and the children will grow up saddled with resentment and awareness that their peers never had to struggle as they did, because they had better parents, who were actually ready for the responsibility of being a parent.
My wife’s parents got divorced and her dad struggled to give them a roof over their heads and make things fun.
The free things they did are some of my wife’s favourite memories. They camped a lot, they did portage and walking trips for vacation, they had family dinner of samples and a hot dog at Costco, they played the same board games 1000 times and played cards together and they made memories.
Times can become tough even when you’ve done everything right. I don’t think it’s fair to say that just because they didn’t have everything they shouldn’t have been able to have kids, or suggest that they should have lost the kids when things got tough.
These anecdotal outliers are not the statistical mean. Of course, creative, thoughtful parents, who want their children to thrive, can find ways to provide meaningful childhood experiences. But that is not how it goes for most.
Society is built by averages. The median experience is more insightful than the particular experience you, or someone you know may have had in the margins of the bell curve. That doesn’t mean their personal experience are devalued. But it DOES mean that we cannot hold them up as the standard, nor pretend that there aren’t significant truths behind the realities of parents who struggle financially, emotionally, mentally, and otherwise. Moreover, the compounding factor in most destitute childhoods is that the parents never really wanted their children to love and rear, and develop into flourishing adults; instead, they simply followed the prescribed processes as they were instructed, or feared their own loss of status and position among their peers.
I hope you can expand your perspective to encompass more than just the winning stories; society is better measured by our treatment of the most vulnerable.
With all due respect I think we’re talking past each other on this thread.
I’m only saying you don’t need everything perfect to have kids, not having the en suite laundry shouldn’t be the dealbreaker. That’s a far way from saying people in poverty should be having kids, but even that feels like an unfair statement to make.
I’m not saying purchasing power is the same
I just think if the only thing stopping you from having kids is an ensuite laundry then you’re letting perfect get in the way of good enough.
So it’s a question of, is dad working? How much is his wage? If he leaves early infrequently does he earn less? Can mom take the stairs for a few weeks or months before/after giving birth? Are we close enough to friends they can help? Do we have a chute to get smelly diapers away from mom and baby? Can we afford disposable vs cloth diapers?
If it costs you more money to leave work, or get an ensuite, or hire somebody, or buy disposable, or you are priced out of every option, that’s not perfect that’s just one of a series of financial choices.
Right now they are priced out of all the options, ensuite seemed like the best one.
So that the eldest children get the privilege of raising their siblings? Of trading their own childhood for parentification by their selfish and ignorant parents?
Nah. Absolutely not. Having a bunch of kids all stuffed in some shitty apartment is not providing for them. Forcing existence on someone is not sharing some miracle of life; it’s rationalization from narcissistic parents who decided they were just going to do what they wanted, regardless of means, ability, or know how.
Then those shitty parents will forget how awful their children’s childhoods were and the children will grow up saddled with resentment and awareness that their peers never had to struggle as they did, because they had better parents, who were actually ready for the responsibility of being a parent.
The “I grew up fine,” crowd did NOT grow up fine.
My wife’s parents got divorced and her dad struggled to give them a roof over their heads and make things fun.
The free things they did are some of my wife’s favourite memories. They camped a lot, they did portage and walking trips for vacation, they had family dinner of samples and a hot dog at Costco, they played the same board games 1000 times and played cards together and they made memories.
Times can become tough even when you’ve done everything right. I don’t think it’s fair to say that just because they didn’t have everything they shouldn’t have been able to have kids, or suggest that they should have lost the kids when things got tough.
These anecdotal outliers are not the statistical mean. Of course, creative, thoughtful parents, who want their children to thrive, can find ways to provide meaningful childhood experiences. But that is not how it goes for most.
Society is built by averages. The median experience is more insightful than the particular experience you, or someone you know may have had in the margins of the bell curve. That doesn’t mean their personal experience are devalued. But it DOES mean that we cannot hold them up as the standard, nor pretend that there aren’t significant truths behind the realities of parents who struggle financially, emotionally, mentally, and otherwise. Moreover, the compounding factor in most destitute childhoods is that the parents never really wanted their children to love and rear, and develop into flourishing adults; instead, they simply followed the prescribed processes as they were instructed, or feared their own loss of status and position among their peers.
I hope you can expand your perspective to encompass more than just the winning stories; society is better measured by our treatment of the most vulnerable.
With all due respect I think we’re talking past each other on this thread.
I’m only saying you don’t need everything perfect to have kids, not having the en suite laundry shouldn’t be the dealbreaker. That’s a far way from saying people in poverty should be having kids, but even that feels like an unfair statement to make.