More dataisdepressing than dataisbeautiful
The world lol? More like America and its vassals.
Do you have any links for surveys of other countries?
Well in dictatorships like China it doesn’t really count since you’re not allowed to have an opinion anyway
Is that the reasoning for bombing civilians to smithereen across the globe if they are under something you see as a dictatorship - they doesn’t count?
As long as none of the civilians is a white cishet capitalist man, who cares?
You really are a well-trained, long-since-housebroken dog aren’t you
Not one of the billion people who live in China have an opinion, interesting.
go back to reddit liberal
A few folks have mentioned that these charts
- conflate liberal/conservative with the dominant left/right parties in these nations
- does not include people who do not identify with one of those dominant parties
- have some somewhat unreliable stats magic behind them
A lot of young men in the US are reporting themselves as “not a Democrat or Republican”, and that’s causing a lot of this proportional shift. I would bet that characterizes a lot of folks on this site who are not conservative.
https://www.vox.com/politics/2024/3/13/24098780/politics-gender-divide-generation-z-youth-men-women
https://www.allendowney.com/blog/2024/01/28/is-the-ideology-gap-growing/
Those ‘unaffiliated’s are just embarrassed republicans. Just like most of the centrists you’ll run across.
Oh hell nah, I’m independent and I am definitely an embarassed left leaning voter
In the UK, where there actually is a centralist party, most of the “centralists” don’t actually vote for them. Which really tells you everything you need to know about centralism. It’s not a political ideology, it’s just a refusal to engage.
On the flip side, in Europe extreme right parties are mostly being propped up by young men, while in other age groups men and women vote relatively similarly, which supports this finding.
conflate liberal/conservative with the dominant left/right parties in these nations
Why do so many people on Lemmy insist on pretending that liberal/conservative aren’t relative terms?
Every single time those words get used with their little l/c to mean "relatively liberal/conservative) I see multiple people go “well ackshully a Liberal is a right wing ideology!”
The actual opposite of conservative in this case would be progressive. Liberal isn’t a relative term, progressive is. It’s easy enough to tell from context but when there’s already no info on how these graphs came to be it just adds to them being questionable.
Exactly. I would be almost as upset with being classified as a liberal or a Democrat as I would be a conservative.
At the same time I know many people (my brother included) that claim to be “independent” because they think that the trump camp is somehow outside the conservative camp, and therefore respond “independent” on polls. Because they think “I’m not democrat or conservative, I just want to drain the swamp” and then support trump, who is literally a swamp.
I get classified as all three depending on who I’m talking to.
That’s because when talking to tribalist types, you’re seen as either with them or against them and in a system with 2 political parties “against them” means “supporting the other guys”.
There is no independent thinking amongst the “party supporter” masses, only following and parroting of the party messages, so the idea of somebody being a genuinely independent thinker guided by personal principles rather than following some tribe or other is anathema to them.
I wish more people would read Jane Jacob’s system of survival since I think it’s a good breakdown of liberal/conservative. It’s also an excellent book that’s not that long and easy to read.
Liberals are A conservatives are B. Society needs both. Neither are inherently bad, it’s probably more that humans/life/society is cruel by nature.
Moral Syndrome A Moral Syndrome B shun force shun trading voluntary agreement exert prowess be honest be obedient and disciplined collaborate adhere to tradition compete respect hierarchy respect contracts be loyal use initiative and enterprise take vengeance open to inventiveness and novelty deceive for the sake of the task be efficient make rich use of leisure promote comfort and convenience be ostentatious dissent for the sake of the task dispense largesse invest for productive purposes be exclusive be industrious show fortitude be thrifty be fatalistic be optimistic treasure honorWhy?
This is your brain on idealism, just pure vibes. Political astrology.
Have you read it? Don’t judge too quickly!Actually on second thought nvm. If that’s you’re response then I’m out :)
No, but like… dude, you could flip half of those supposed traits between categories and it would read exactly the same. That’s why I called it astrology.
Perhaps you just did a bad job of presenting the book’s ideas, but I’ve just read through a summary of it and it didn’t exactly make me reconsider my knee jerk reaction.
Thanks for explaining. I did a bad job explaining it, but I’m only taking a short break irl and am just jumping into this conversation. I’ve removed that section of my comment.
The book explains this in more detail and I recommend it. We don’t get much deep discussion into what it means to be conservative/liberal and the purpose of the book isn’t to go into that but it does provide a framework. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Jacobs
But now your comment is just “here’s 10 hour read that explains everything, I will not elaborate” like in this post: https://sh.itjust.works/post/26206134
You can at least leave info about what it should explain, at best you can summarise, but it is possible that you will not persuade people to read that.
From the wiki page, it looks like the idea behind the book is viable, but nothing is scientific about it, no research, no further developments, it’s just how the author sees the system work. This may be insightful but should be taken with a large grain of salt
What the fuck South Korea? Also you just know that sudden rise in liberal men in the UK is the Tories’ doing.
The Tories are really good at convincing people to hate them, fuck the Tories
It’s very easy because the Tories have recently decided that the reason people don’t like them is because they’re not fascist enough, so they’ve doubled down and decided to be more fascist. At least trying to be, but it’s difficult to be fascist when you lost power due to being awful fascists.
Weirdly people didn’t want that, and so now they’re even less popular.
People have always hated the Tories, however I think the recent hate can go back to a particular prime minister whose grave is now a gender neutral bathroom.
In the north of England certainly. Not sure how much people in London care about Thatcher.
I was thinking more recently about Boris and his various illegal activities. Oh and the crashing of the economy by the disability hire. Or the fact that our most recent excuse for a Tory prime minister basically allowed the Extreme right-wing free reign because he was incapable of standing up to them.
Anti-feminism has taken a huge hold in SK. it’s partially related to the draft, but that’s nothing new. women have been getting increased respect over the past decades, esp in sharp contrast to the pre-war era when women didnt even deserve names beyond “X’s mom”.
the situation for women is actually improving a lot here, in many ways better than in other developed nations. consider it just one last baby whine
SK is wild right now. Women are taking part in the 4B movement (no dating, sex, childbirth, or marriage. The Korean words start with “B”). There was a online feminist group that got people so heated they thought they were sneaking hand signals into “male” media and they were getting people fired. If certain characters didn’t come out with risqué enough clothing, male netizens would blame some secret feminist in the company. Women are assaulted if they’re confused for a feminist due to just their hairstyle. A book (“Kim Jiyoung 1989” I think) that is, like, baby’s first feminist literature, can have your spouse leave you. Men say you can’t date a woman whose read it. All the book is about is the subtle sexism women face. They have an epidemic of “molka,” which are secret cameras in women’s bathrooms among other places. Women tell each other to bring nail polish to paint over the screws to protect themselves. Their new president is looking to abolish the gender equality ministry and blames feminism for the low birth rate.
TL;DR: Yeah, it’s pretty bad over there right now.
Holy fuck. There are legitimately third world countries better than this what the fuck.
Can confirm, it’s comparatively (sometimes even without comparing) a shithole in every other way out here, but it’s not NEARLY as bad for gender equality. Still pretty bad don’t get me wrong, but at least the government isn’t actively trying to dismantle institutions formed to combat gender inequality 🤷♂️
oh yeah, South Korea has gone off the rails recently. lots of news stories about men assaulting women for the assumption that they’re feminists, anti-woman politicians being elected, women losing their jobs for being (or assumed to be) feminists, it’s all Very Not Good.
It’s weird that the axes of where “centre” is remain stable over time. Can you imagine comparing “left vs right” between the 1890s and the 1920s? Like a bunch of stuff happened in between, history happened, and that tends to redefine left, right and centre.
Great observation! This is called the Overton Window
Sauce, for those interested - https://www.ft.com/content/29fd9b5c-2f35-41bf-9d4c-994db4e12998
In the US, Gallup data shows that after decades where the sexes were each spread roughly equally across liberal and conservative world views, women aged 18 to 30 are now 30 percentage points more liberal than their male contemporaries. That gap took just six years to open up.
So it might be worth taking it with a pinch of salt because I’m betting it’s using the very dumbed down “liberal vs conservative” 'murican political view. Maybe skew all results down 3-6 points.
So here’s the question - is the scale consistent over time? That is, do we consider the same ideas left/right wing in 202x as we did in 199x?
Let’s assume it is. We’re seeing men lean towards the center/right, and a lot of people are asking why. The trouble is, the answer isn’t one people like to hear - in our headlong pursuit of equity, we’re introducing a lot of inequality. You lift the ladies up, while you let the men climb - all based on the assumption that the women had further to climb so what you’re doing is levelling the field.
Countering this is a sympathetic voice, one offering to bring back equality or offer a different kind of equity. Casting gender equity as a zero sum game, and pushing for equality aimed at the ones not being lifted up.
I often hear the “uneducated men” argument, but that’s just an ugly echo from the past serving those it once oppressed in a bitter irony. The reality is that even educated people can fall for propaganda. Especially when voting in what they see as their own self interest.
If the scale would not be consistent, the results is actual worse. The whole political spectrum is moving towards the right. Traditional left wing parties here in Germany doing right wing stuff is getting normal.
And I don’t see any left party in the U.K. or U.S. parliaments.
Hopefully, in the distant future (as t -> inf), we will all become conservatives. Not out of resistance to change, but because we did so well: We have progressed to such an optimal point that any further step (progress) would lead to something worse. Maybe the trends reflect this?
Cries in UK
in our headlong pursuit of equity,
Where the hell do you live where there has been a headlong pursuit for equity/equality?
I sometimes think they turn conservative because women won’t date them.
In the age of social media I imagine people are actually a lot more antisocial than we used to be…. And if young men and young women are all online more now and actually go out to interact in person less than we used to, this would make it a lot more difficult for young men to interact with the young women long enough to ask them out….
Online is heavily skewed in women’s favor unfortunately. I had a female coworker that had 100+ matches on bumble and kept complaining how hard it was too keep track of. She wasn’t even very pretty and she had an empty pot for head. Meanwhile male coworkers really struggle. No surprise This will make some males bitter and lash out. Even if they do find a partner Worst part is if the social skills are bad it is a bad relationship. I hope we are not seeing a universe 25 style collapse.
I can’t remember which app it was, but I tried online dating over a decade ago. I noticed I wasn’t getting very many responses to any messages I sent out, and it was basically after saying yes to everyone and I had spent some time on the app, so I got to the point where I just messaged everyone a generic opener….
I talked to my female roommate at the time and I got a couple generic photos of her, she was a young mid 20’s woman who was very pretty but idk average for a young beautiful woman.
I created a new profile for myself, and also a second profile for her, I let her choose the most attractive photos of me and I chose some dorky not very attractive but still cute I guess photos of her….
She had ten messages before we were even able to upload the first photo after just creating the account.
This doesn’t mean that she got messages from guys who were someone she would consider dating. It just means she got a lot of messages. I think guys don’t realize how many messages the women get. They have to wade through hundreds of “hi how are you doing” messages before they can even start a conversation. Whereas the guys have to send out messages that are unique and capture the attention of ladies to get a conversation started. Neither is ideal, it’s just how it is
That’s very true and likely why she felt so overwhelmed. No one is really winning. She would have had a really good match in there but drowned in a sea of options.
In this case we only left the app open for a couple hours that afternoon before we deleted it, but it’s just anecdotal evidence that show if we are specifically talking about online dating the problems are just as bad for either sex if we are talking about cis heteronormative relationships
A really sad point. Though I think drowning in option is better for self esteem than 0. If males had plenty I doubt we would see such a trend.
I wasn’t specifically talking about online dating, but women are generally more desired by men than vice versa, whether online or in person.
I can’t imagine online dating to be useful than for more than a handful of people in my opinion.
I was more saying since we are all online more, we are all interacting in person a lot less, which allows for more organic interactions…
Yeah I agree. Wanting to Go back the good old days is what is causing this trend. Though Realistically all the social skills in the world won’t bag you the girl if you are average right now. I knew a few coworkers that wouldn’t even talk to a guy unless he was a 666 man. 6 figures, 6 feet, 6 pack. No surprise they are single. I wonder if their POV changed overtime, they were in early 20s at the time. I know my old roommate lowered her standards super hard over 30 to bag a husband.
Anecdotal evidence is not the same as actual data across populations
The Sample size is rather small from personal experience. I am curious if such data exists.
I’m pretty sure women don’t want to date people who have any sort of disposition that leans towards hating them or believing that women are lesser than men.
Unfortunately, a lot of men learned that way of thinking early in life(from family and/or media) and it ruins any attempt at a relationship, then they blame women and run to the very people who set them up to fail for validation, or find new ones like that sex trafficker with the pizza boxes, or that canadian psychologist who sugar coats sexism online. Repeat ad nauseum.
I have an old high school friend who is very much into the whole Andrew Tate thing. His parents were separated, I don’t know the details as to why, but I do know that his father was a lot more stable than his mother, and I do sometimes wonder if he had lived with his father, if he would have turned out better.
He also thinks the earth is flat because… otherwise a ball would roll off a table. QED.
So not exactly firing an all cylinders to begin with.
“Divorced dad energy” is one of those meme things that everyone likes to make fun of when a dude does anything, but no one likes to address that same poison when divorced moms act like fools.
My mother would drag me to various groups that would absolutely shit on “men” constantly, and I got to hear that constantly. It was weird growing up in that environment, but luckily for me it was before the redpill trash all over the internet. Managed to find some good friends in high school
That’s a interesting point. My mother was substantially more mentally stable when I was a child then when my siblings were born.
That was the mainstream 70-80 years ago. Late 90’s and early 2000’s largely (not completely; nothing is perfect) corrected that, although there was still work to be done. For a brief couple of decades, society enjoyed unadulterated equality underpinned by meritocracy.
Nowadays men are checking out because modern society overcorrected to the point of them feeling rejected and hated… and unfortunately shithead lowlives like Tate capitalize on that. There are also academics like Peterson whose messaging is too nuanced for the average liberal to comprehend without bias (that’s legitimately difficult to do especially when one’s doctrine actively teaches and encourages ignorance and rejection of opposing views) - kind of like the reverse Tate fanboy, i.e. flaming liberal commie/socialist that would rather dump oil on priceless paintings in museums and run around naked while screaming in people faces while blocking major arterial streets in a busy city in the name of climate change or veganism or some other shit. So on one hand you have Tate fanboys (borderline classical Nazis) and on the other extreme of the spectrum you have overgrown narcissists (basically grown-ass adult toddlers that never developed a proper superego, to use Freudian parlance). I wouldn’t expect an adult toddler with deep-rooted indoctrinated biases to be able to consume or critically analyze any kind of nuanced opinion that did not 100% align with their own… heck, one SJW blue haired leftie with a law degree told me that Peterson’s original argument was that he did not accept trans people, and were genuinely surprised to learn that his sticking point was about compelled speech (weaponized anti-misgendering legislation), rather than being or nor being transgender.
So from the “incel” perspective (and I am usijg that term rather cynically here, as today’s “incel” is basically the 90’s average 20-30 year old man with classical liberal leanings) on one hand, you have people screaming at you how you’re the problem, you’re a nazi, an incel, blah blah blah, and on the other hand you have people who remind you of the “good old days” when you could settle down, buy a home with a picket fence, a car, a dog/cat, a couple of kids and live your damn life in peace… with a bit of 40-60’s sexism/nazi-ism (depending on who you listen to) sprinkled in. Now whom are you going to listen to as a cis white straight male (the majority of males, BTW)? Hmmm… I wonder…
academics like peterson
LMFAO
Didn’t he recently lose his license to practice because he was saying bullshit that no real psychiatrist would agree with?
Not yet! He has to go to training first
Didn’t he recently lose his license to practice because he was saying bullshit that no real psychiatrist would agree with?
Well, that and also because the left basically hates them. Hearing narratives like “men are privileged, racist, homophobic, and all the other isms, phobes and ists” combined with DEI initiatives that invalidate and sabotage their hard work and achievements makes them want to disconnect from these groups and modern societal “norms.”
Why would you date someone who resents and hates you?
And that’s exactly why hagmaxing is a trend now. Women in their reproductive prime (under 30) are basically insufferable socialists/communists which is a turnoff for men of any age… except chads who swat off hordes of women competing for their attention and as the result never have to commit to any serious or long-term relationship.
Is this… tilted slightly?
Am I leaning?
left-leaning, maybe
Mine curves to the left
I wonder why Dessalines is posting this sort of stupid charts
Those letters mean absolutely nothing to me
Canadian politics: red, Liberal party (center); blue, Conservative party (right); orange, New Democrat party (left); green, Green party (was kinda conservative, then had a meltdown around identity politics); BQ are kind of French separatists.
The colors are also meaningless as well since there was no global definition of each color means respective to political leanings. So it’s basically a meaningless picture. At least the OP graphic (while it has some pretty big problems) tells you which is left and which is right.
They’re Canadian political parties.
Yeah I got that from context but I wouldn’t just dump a UK political chart on everyone and expect them to be able to understand it not least because the colors all opposite to what you would expect from a US centric point of view
Red is liberal blue is conservative
the graph is using the party’s respective official colours
So
Like the vast majority of the population of the planet I’m not Canadian, and don’t magically know what any of the colors means.
I’m only asking for a simple explanation, that is not particularly complicated or hard to comprehend.
Would you like to supply one since apparently you know about Canadian politics? A subject matter that I am confident no one else cares about
no, seek therapy
Canada is so fucked. I understand the fatigue with Justin Trudeau and the Liberals but if PP wins it truly is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
We deserve whatever comes from the next election. A person is smart. People are dumb.
Halp!!!
There is no “fatigue” with Justin Trudeau.
People are pissed off and struggling because of the decisions that their municipal or provincial government make, and then misattribute that pain to the federal government.
Yet, they’ll vote conservative, not realizing this.
Housing affordability, healthcare, education, traffic congestion, crime, homelessness, childcare, or even snow removal ARE NOT the responsibility of the federal government.
Rather than buying “fuck Trudeau” stickers and flags to put on their oversized pickup trucks, maybe voters should learn how our government is structured.
I highly doubt most of the “fuck Trudeau” sticker people have no clue what he has or hasn’t done. They just hate him because he’s on the other team.
On a side note I don’t think I’ve ever seen the sticker NOT on a giant truck.
There is no “fatigue” with Justin Trudeau.
I strongly disagree and anecdotally the sentiment plays out.
People are pissed off and struggling because of the decisions that their municipal or provincial government make, and then misattribute that pain to the federal government.
You’re also ignoring the litany of bullshit the Liberals have fumbled during their time in office as well as the multiple very public scandals around what amounts to a very publicly perceived “not giving a shit about Canadians”.
Housing affordability, healthcare, education, traffic congestion, crime, homelessness, childcare, or even snow removal ARE NOT the responsibility of the federal government.
They are everyone’s responsibility don’t try to pass the buck. The Fed’s have an obligation just as much as provincial and municipal.
As someone who leans left and has voted Liberal on multiple occasions making it out like they’re the victim is complete and utter bullshit.
Interestingly it looks like in 3 of 4 charts men have, at worst, returned to mean. It’s the women getting more leftist. And I don’t blame them.
Liberalism isn’t the same as Left. It’s not even in the same political axis.
You can’t really read “more liberal” as being the same as “more leftist”.
Left would be something like: “I want the greatest good for the greatest number”.
Liberalism would be something like: “I want people to have the most freedom to do whatever they want”.
You might notice that these two things collide in things like the existence of the super-rich, were for a liberal that’s a good thing (they have maximum freedom) whilst for a Leftie it’s a bad thing (wealth concentration reduces the access to resources for the many hence it directly goes against the greatest good for the greatest number).
Similarly centralizing control of part or the whole of the Economy (which decreases trade freedom) to achieve greater equality is absolutelly valid within the Leftwing principles and entirely against Liberal principles.
it’s only in places like the US, were the entirety of Leftwing is about 4 congressmen, that Liberalism gets confused with Leftwing.
Well, honestly what political positions women have means less in “interesting times” like ours.
They are not strongly pressured by conservative men of their family and surroundings (if they have such), because tribal parts of politics rely a lot on crowd instincts, and those of women don’t work exactly the same. They do participate in politics, but with the different kind of emotion.
For men a woman holding different views is usually not an existential enemy. They might ridicule that or dislike, that may look disgusting, but it’s a different kind of attitude. It’s pretty normal for women from families from authoritarian elites to have publicly liberal views. The dictator daddy won’t punish his daughter for reposting something virtue-signalling against what he’s doing. He knows it’s of no consequence.
At the same time women, of course, see the tendencies around us and their views change accordingly.
But again, in the “interesting times” what men do may matter just a bit more, because there are power dynamics involved where women are disadvantaged due to both different tribal instincts and to men being more represented among people with power. In some sense political views are a kind of compensation.
So it’s both bigger incentives for such views (with actual incels loudly talking) and less pressure (that’s spent on threatening violence against male opponents).
I’m not an incel. Just thinking.
Yeah, I would classify them as mean
Is anyone brave enough to ask why?
This is probably more of a symptom than a cause, but social media platforms pushing manosphere content isn’t helping.
I wasn’t paying attention for like 2 seconds and it went from “Men also have rights” to “Andrew Tate is a role model”, like WTF internet, stop ruining good things, fuck.
But people need to make money. Internet will stop being ruined when it stops being monitized.
Unfortunately, “Men’s Rights” was a bait and switch. The Alpha/Sigma ideology says there can only ever be a handful of “True Men” worthy of human rights. Everyone else has to either prove themselves through combat or submit to being less than human.
Unfortunately it’s not a bait and switch, there real issues in how we’re failing boys and men are surely contributing to this concerning trend.
Especially when we blame the victims.
These “True Men” ass holes are simply swooping in to prey on the young men who’ve been left behind, like any cult leader would.
real issues in how we’re failing boys and men
Only the poor ones. You know, the “betas”.
These “True Men” ass holes are simply swooping in to prey on the young men who’ve been left behind
They’re driving the disparity. Artificially constricting the demand for labor in order to drive down wages. Privatizing public services to squeeze working people for their last dime. Bombarding audiences with FUD in order to get them to blame every conceivable external agent - illegal migrants, evil foreign governments, spies, terrorists, literal fucking space aliens - so that the public is in a constant state of anxiety and exhaustion. Busting unions. Busting street protests. Busting college campuses. Corrupting the foundations of the political system to shield themselves from accountability for their shady actions. Then dumping vast fortunes into policing and the military in order to unleash wave upon wave of violence on working class communities.
At the forefront of all of these moves are “Alpha” men. People who believe themselves entitled to enormous wealth and social privilege, extracting at the expense of the rest of us. Its only after we’ve been ravaged that we see the lackeys and sycophants of these self-entitled paymasters step back in to recruit for the next generation of gladiatorial fighters, street cops, and foreign mercenaries.
Alpha/Sigma ideology
I remember when that was just a category of porn writing 😞
Shock value gets upvotes and downvotes.
There was a famous radical feminist from decades ago who argued all men should be killed. I don’t think she was relevant during twitter or in the recent internet… if she had been, idk 🤷♂️
I think the problem with some of these issues is that there are academic theories that are being discussed, which end up getting reduced by non academics and applied to specific individuals.
In the men’s rights forums it becomes men and boys are being left behind, this gets turned into pointing at a specific woman and blaming her.
Likewise in feminist ideology there is the idea of the patriarchy, this gets turned into some people pointing fingers at specific men and blaming them.
I recon its both, looks like the symptom makes the cause more potent makes the symptoms worse.
Andrew Tate blaming normal life issues on women and pushing teenagers to be very hateful against them is one big reason
If the issues young men had wherent real he wouldnt have the followers. We do account for 75% of suicides so Tate’s diagnosis is correct just his treatment is wrong.
This is such a wildly intelligent comment that I’m curious what the down voters think. Guessing either Tate fans or ignoramuses, but I’m happy to be proven wrong.
I downvoted because the fact that issues exists doesn’t justify the proposed “solutions”. It’s like saying that bloodletting has a point because patients really were sick, those things are not causally related.
I think that even having no one talk about problems is better than having someone talk about problems to actively do harm and gain power. One part of my reasons is usually this is not the case, and some already talk about the same problems but are not heard. Another reason is that when a problem is widely spread and there is no one exploiting it or raising awareness, there exists a pressure to start doing just that. So even no one is better than Tate.
the fact that issues exists doesn’t justify the proposed “solutions”
Ok but they never said it did. They just pointed out that saying “assholes like Andrew State are responsible” leaves out that there’s a reason people go to him and thus is not the actual root problem
I think that even having no one talk about problems is better than having someone talk about problems to actively do harm and gain power
Wow, you’re trash
Reason people go to Tate is not because issues exist, there’s reason to people going to any liar or scammer and it’s never the issue at hand, it’s the illusion of a simple answer.
Have been discussing it with them and they are simply unwilling to give him any credit even if said credit is for highly successfull marketing of a wildly dangerouse religion like ideology to vulnerable youths.
How disgusting, people being unwilling to credit a rapist and sex trafficker.
Next thing we’re going to do is what, not crediting Hitler?
He preys on vulnerable young men, yes, that’s the point. There are healthier male role models online but I’m not sure youtube shares them widely.
Exactly. But i feel both sides simply see these young men as soldiers to be recruited to their army of ideology. Regardless their is definatly a crisis of purpose for all youths thats effecting men particularly badly.
75% of suicide deaths. the number of attempts is about the same
“Dont send a women to do a mans job” - Andrew Tate
If you can’t kill yourself properly, just find a real alpha man to do the job correctly? You don’t know jack about suicide. Here let me mansplain that for ya
- puts down Tylenol, grabs gun
Wait u thought i was being serious?
I hope not lol
Rapid increases in the productive forces of South Korea has resulted in a progressive population of women and a hyper-reactionary population of men, the increase in productive forces was so rapid it caused a hyper-sharpening of contradictions with tradition.
Women’s lib has been great for women but not so good for men. So men are becoming reactionary.
What the fuck?
Just because one side gets more rights, doesn’t mean the other side loses rights.
I guess if the rights you miss is the ability to beat your wife without repercussions.
Bullshit. Most men suffer under toxic patriarchy as well. I absolutely love that this shit is finally getting pulled into the spotlight. I have not suffered a single iota of harm from anything “woke” and I would argue that no honest man has either.
Dishonest men still get to vote though
How do men suffer under patriarchy? Do u really want to be the one blaming 75% of suicides on men not being allowed to beat their wives? Sounds like ur calling all cis men evil bad people. I wonder what such a narrative would do to a young man trying to develop a sence of self, identity, and personal ideology?
Do u really want to be the one blaming 75% of suicides on men not being allowed to beat their wives?
This is so back asswards it is genuinely astounding.
Men are 75% of suicides under patriarchy.
Damn I wonder how someone could conclude that patriarchy hurts the majority of men.
Yep. Toxic masculinity wants us to work ourselves to death without complaining to anyone. So our mental health is in the fucking toilet. If you’re not working enough, you’re not providing and you’re not a real man. If you do work enough but show any emotion that’s not a “manly” emotion (anything involving tears outside of a funeral or during Old Yeller or anything that’s too excited) then you’re not a real man.
I could write a whole dissertation on how young men get sucked into that whole toxic ideology due to the promises of being able to have a family and a house. And it’s all a fucking lie.
Toxic masculinity wants us to work ourselves to death
My man… Your owner wants this and we LARPed that kool aid.
Got take some ownership IMHO
Also, got to the perp… Otherwise this entire discussion is a futile exercise.
Men are 75% of suicides under patriarchy.
Male suicide is getting worse every year the patriarchy is getting destroyed more every year, im simply pointing out the correlation is backward sof what u claim.
Damn I wonder how someone could conclude that patriarchy hurts the majority of men.
The data correlates exactly the wrong way for this to be true.
Correlation does not equal causation.
I would point to the economic disparity that is widening in virtually every advanced economy as a much more relevant driver of male suicide.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Exactly but causation does not come without correlation. Causation is a subset of correlation.
I would point to the economic disparity that is widening in virtually every advanced economy as a much more relevant driver of male suicide.
Economic disparity should be effecting the genders equally unless you are saying women are doing better financially.
How do men suffer under patriarchy?
Queer and gender nonconforming men get an immense amount of abuse due to patriarchy. Even gender conforming straight boys and men do if they show sensitivity in any real capacity. The abuse of boys and young men for the sake of making them “man up” is hardly an unusual in many areas.
Do u really want to be the one blaming 75% of suicides on men not being allowed to beat their wives?
What? This has nothing to do with the comment you replied to.
Sounds like ur calling all cis men evil bad people.
No, this is a ridiculous conclusion you drew from someone saying patriarchy hurts everyone.
It’s “The Woke”. Women are more visible in society as they are treated more equally, so certain (yes not all men) men see that as men losing rights and want to go back to “the good old days”
If you created a similar graph mapping the ideology gap between races or straight and LGBTQIA+ they’d look very similar.
to the privileged, equality is oppression. And therefore more pushback to maintain the status quo
Fascism is sociologically rooted in the sexual insecurity of men. That’s why it’s always men driving it.
Do you have a reason to think this or did it just sound good in your head
There is a ton of academic interest in the relationship between sexuality and fascism. It was first noted in “The Mass Psychology of Fascism” by Wilhelm Reich after WW2. My comment is, of course, a massive oversimplification of a complex social dynamic.
It’s the same dynamic that made US racists paranoid that black men wanted to rape white women when, in fact, their deeper fear was that white women wanted to have sex with black men. Fascists are particularly sensitive to sexual relations between “their women” and whomever they have chosen to blame for all their misfortunes.
So facism is mens fault? I wonder how that effects a young man who isnt a facist while they are developing? Ur narrative is actively harming young men and driving them to be the very thing u swore to drstroy.
I knew it as soon as I read your ‘Tate is right’ bullshit.
So facism is mens fault?
Yes. Men had all the political power in the countries that turned to fascism in the past. If you knew any history this would be obvious.
I wonder how that effects a young man who isnt a facist while they are developing?
The same way that one woman having an abortion harms another woman; not at all.
Ur narrative is actively harming young men and driving them to be the very thing u swore to drstroy.
It’s room temperature IQ weakling reactionaries like you that are harming young men. Real men stand against fascists.
I knew it as soon as I read your ‘Tate is right’ bullshit.
So men have no issues and the only reason men are listening to tate is cos they are hatfull evil bastards?
Yes. Men had all the political power in the countries that turned to fascism in the past. If you knew any history this would be obvious.
Im so happy to learn that women didnt go along with fascism or support it in any way. If u knew anything about history u’d have heard of Magda Goebbels, Irma Grese, Eva Braun, Margaret Harker, Yukiko Sugishita etc.
The same way that one woman having an abortion harms another woman; not at all.
Abortions are about the liberty to do with onself as one wishes, what does this got to do with u blaming men for fascism? Having you gender (something where most people derive a majority of their identity) blamed for the entirety of facism and its hanouse actions isnt exactly fair or a good way to raise a child.
It’s room temperature IQ weakling reactionaries like you that are harming young men. Real men stand against fascists.
This is bad faith child-like insults not a civilised discussion of ideas undertaken by real adults. I stand against fascists and i will not let you paint me as one.
There are definitely issues affecting men, the only men listening to Tate are weaklings looking to a perceived ‘tough guy’ for answers.
If u knew anything about history
I would also know they didn’t get voted into positions of power, give speeches, command invasions or otherwise directly wield any power. Because they were living in patriarchal societies. Please think before you comment.
Abortions are about the liberty to do with onself as one wishes, what does this got to do with u blaming men for fascism?
As much as calling out fascists has to do with impacting the political views of non-fascists. There’s an Explain Like I’m Five sub somewhere you could post this question to.
If you don’t want to be insulted you should avoid entering conversations by parroting the views of rapists.
Yes. Men had all the political power in the countries
that turned to fascism in the past. If you knew any history this would be obvious.this is kind of meaningless to point out, since men also had the power in every country that turned towards socialism, gave or took away rights, started and ended wars, etc.
This is insulting as fuck. I grew up as a boy with plenty of reactionary beliefs because patriarchy is a fucking prison. And as I got older and got called out for it, you know what I didn’t do? Become a fucking fascist. I wasn’t pushed towards fascism. I was already reactionary and fascism would have required less work of me. That’s not the same thing. And it lets people off the hook to suggest otherwise.
Ok so ur smart enough not to be a fascist congratulations for achieving the bare minimum. Do u think most people are bright enough to go “ohhh yeah fascism is my fault because of the gender i was born i shall apologise for my genders ancestors actions” or do they go “no fuck you and fuck everything you stand for”?
ohhh yeah fascism is my fault
I mean if the shoe fits
because of the gender i was born
it’s this aggrieved “wah poor me for being born a man” shit that makes people disregard your bullshit in the first place. whatever happened to masculinity being defined by setting your jaw, gritting your teeth, and fixing your own fuckeries before they could adversely harm your surroundings?
i shall apologise for my genders ancestors actions
literally the bare fucking minimum a cracker could do and you phrase it like it’s an impossible fucking pipe dream. and you wonder why people disregard and avoid bullshit peddlers like you.
christ, our species is cooked if you’re an example of the kind of man the future has to look forward to
Did someone ask all men to apologize for something?
How is it insulting? I didn’t say it was you. Fascism is a social phenomenon driven almost entirely by men. That doesn’t mean all men are fascists, or that there is something wrong with masculinity. It’s about certain men in certain situations reacting in what is an entirely predictable way. It is perhaps an insult to fascist men, but I’m comfortable insulting them.
I wasn’t insulted by what you said and I’m not a man
and driving them to be the very thing u swore to drstroy.
Such profound concern trolling wisdom from the wisest of all Star Wars characters!
Who’s the alien they’re pointing to?
Glup Shitto, who else?
spoiler
Real answer is some extra with a silly Star Wars name that I don’t even know.
The only possible explanation for any of this is that men are bad and we should definitely not examine the underlying causes and material conditions at all.
Great idea im sure them killing themselves at record rates must be an anomoly.
Your misconstruing the statement. Fascism is a way for insecure men to feel powerful. These men are feeling insecure due to lack of job prospects, lack of honest to God to physical insecurity, and that also makes them less desirable to potential mates.
The way to protect against fascism is to ensure proper addressing of Maslow‘s-goddamn-hierarchy of needs. Endstage, capitalism leads to fascism, but it has to secure itself in spreading racism and sexism.
No, it’s not “men’s” fault, but the people who’s fault it is are primarily men. That’s not an opinion, that’s just history, not to mention what’s happening before our eyes. Even women who are fascist push patriarchy. There is no point in debating whether fascism is primarily a male driven phenomenon. The only legitimate question is why?
Fascism is Capitalism in decline. Masculinity is a recognized part of fascism, but fascism is rooted in Capitslist decay, not in moral failures of men.
Masculinity by your argument is also rooted in the development of vaccines, all of the aspects of technological progress, and also all progressive social movements that have resulted in more equitable distribution of political power, ie voting rights act, giving women the vote, etc.
I mean, if history lessons in Italy taught me anything, the ‘super uomo D’Annunziano’, “D’annunzio” and the original italian ‘fascism’ are pretty much linked.
Fascism is capitalism when the capitalist class gets too successful, as soon as the capitalists realize they can establish fascism they always do.
Not quite. Fascism occurs when disparity rises, the petite bourgeoisie are being proletarianized, and collaborates with the bourgeoisie against rising class awareness and leftism among the Proletariat and Lumpenproletariat. It isn’t a symptom of success, but a defense mechanism.
Yet capitalism “failing” somehow consistently happens in every capitalist economy, at this point its basically a feature of capitalism.
Yes. Capitalism is unsustainable, and naturally trends towards disparity and Imperialism.
Yet what I find extremely intriguing is that the capitalist class profits immensely when capitalism decays and therefore actively contributes towards its downfall. Therefore in a sence fascism is when the capitalist class is too successful and when nobody pushes back against their decay and corruption.
Women live in the same declining capitalistic society as men, yet they are far more resistant to fascism. That’s not to say there is something wrong with men or masculinity. Society puts different pressures on men and women so they react differently.
Apparently you are, god speed you poor thing.
Im not afraid of downvotes or getting my feewings hurt.
The answer is simple the media is radicalizing people and gender is one of their primary motivations it is hand tailored to divide and conquer minds.
I agree. Any divide they can make they will make. Its also convenient as it means they can use their culture war propaganda for double action to distract the masses.
Women are rightfully concerned about the loss of bodily autonomy. They don’t want to live in the handmaids tale.
I’m sure that is part of it but proposing that as the sole reason seems unnecessarily reductive.
Bro really said that losing all right to bodily autonomy isn’t a good enough reason to dramatically shift someone’s political leaning
I didn’t say that at all and if that’s what you thought I said then your reading comprehension skills could use some work. I said reproductive rights are a part of a larger culture shift in how women vote. If even one woman has started voting against Republicans for reasons other than abortion access then your dumb assertion that they don’t care about anything else falls apart. So maybe you should stop trying to simplify complex issues into easy to digest soundbites in order to make yourself seem like the most intelligent person in the room.
You’re right, but man reading this is insufferable. You could be much more effective if you weren’t trying to be a dick in your responses.
If you read the comment that preceded my response and came away thinking that I’m the one who devolved the conversation to this point then I’m going to have to disagree with you. That guy was clearly trying to stroke his own ego by putting someone else down and vapid grade school bullying tactics are something of a pet peeve of mine. My original comment was perfectly civil.
When pregnancy and child birth are such a monumental part of a persons life, and the ability to choose whether or not to go through that process is taken away, it makes a lot of sense why this is is the ‘sole reason’ for some women. As someone who very recently gave birth, everything else in the world and other political topics are dwarfed by the absolute earth-shattering life event that is bringing a child into this world. I think it is something that people who haven’t been through it themselves, or who are not empethetic can not wrap their heads around. But there is absolutely a reason why many women are voting liberal for abortion rights alone. That is the single freedom that contributes most directly to a womens adult life. While tax policies and national affairs have an impact on everyones day to day lives, reproductive rights have an acute impact on womens immediate futures.
Abortion is undoubtedly a big reason for shifting voting habits for a large number of women. However, it is only one piece of the puzzle when it comes to the way conservatives, particularly conservative men, treat and talk about women.
I know women who describe themselves as pro-life and yet have moved away from the Republican party due to the way they have handled various GOP leaders sex scandals, rape accusations, and general attitude towards women. They don’t want abortion rights restored and yet they are turning away from Republicans. That is why I say that viewing this shift in voting habits solely through the lens of reproductive rights is unnecessarily reductive. By doing so you are excluding women who are part of that shift from consideration both in this discussion and in the larger view of what women in America want their future to look like. Your experience, while not uncommon, is not universal and any discussion that frames a complex issue in such a way is missing part of the picture.
Do those same women think other women should die for a miscarriage like has happened twice now because of its connection to abortion. Or how about the lady face a life sentence in prison for a miscarriage. I think you’re utterly discounting the seriousness of all of that.
You’d have to ask the pro life women. All he is saying is that the issue most important to you and many other women is not the only issue affecting these trends.
That’s literally all the other poster is saying.
Oh there are absolutely women who have turned their backs on the conservative party for those reasons and remain pro life. Personally, I see the issues as interconnected. It feels like we see a headline at least once a month where a conservative politician had an extra marital affair and was perfectly fine insisting their girlfriend get an abortion so that they can maintain their squeaky clean image. Or if their daughter had premarital sex and her successful college career was in jeopardy they would see things differently. Rules for thee and not for me. The shift is obviously more nuanced than a single issue, but reproductive rights radiates through a lot of different issues because it has to do with specifically men and their belief that their opinion matters more than others.
That explains the US, but that’s about it.
For example Europe there are no movements towards making abortion illegal, quite the contrary.
They see what can happen over seas
True - the US of late has been a great inspiration for what NOT to do.
Maybe not as damning as it looks? I don’t think the message here is ‘men suck’ it’s probably more that liberalism is counter to traditional values and those values have historically favoured men by a wide margin if you’re focusing on power structures.
But then I’m confused by S. Korean men? Wtf is going on there?
South Korea has one of the worst reproduction rates of the world, caused by women deciding to not choose a man to spend their life with but to live their own life. Which apparently causes men to freak out and go conservative
It’s almost as if these “traditional conservative values” have something to do with women having less agency in their lives.
Nono you see only with a strong man a woman is free to be a real woman! Free to look pretty, get pregnant, make the house tidy and cook delicious food. The things women enjoy!
/s Just in case I wasn’t being over the top enough to make this obvious sarcasm a
I think a factor is just S Korea’s working class being squeezed that much harder than many other places. They’re calling it the “gender war” but it’s all just people being forced to live in unbearable conditions while getting more and more isolated from each other.
shit sucks which primes people for radicalization and The Algorithm basically pushes men to be chud shitheads (which doesn’t really work for women because who is going to listen to “become a baby machine” and think YEAH, BET)
You’d be surprised, until they encounter what that actually means and will mean for them specifically - some conservative women trick themselves into thinking they’ll be given an exemption. Or they really just don’t what it means until someone like Crowder is brow-beating them and not letting them leave
Then you get the women who hate ethnic minorities, foreigners, sex-positivity, other religions that aren’t their own denomination, and LGBTQ+ people more than they hate sexism. They will put up with misogynistic bullshit if it means they get to be racist and homophobic.
There’s probably more of the former, though. Like you say a lot of them trick themselves into “being the exception,” often because their partner is nice to them specifically.
When I think of all the women & girls in my life that I care about, I remember that I could never be a conservative. It would be a betrayal.
Assuming this is accurate, I’m pleased to see men in the UK bucking the trend.
People like you are why we cannot discuss political ideas without being put into a bucket and given some horrific label. Being conservative doesnt make u sexist some conservative views are sexist same as some progressive view are sexist. Stop spouting hate like politics is a football team and practice critical thinking where you can take ideas from all perspectives.
This is out of date.
People are losing faith rapidly in the left because they don’t seem to be for the everyday working class Briton like they used to be.
There is a big shift going to Reform now largely because they want to reduce immigration. The left deny the situation and the right have claimed they will reduce it every year then increase.
People are flooding to the “far right”* because they don’t seen the main parties address the main issue they want addressing and have been talking about for decades at this point, generations even.
_* not actually far right. But the left love throwing that term around to anyone that has a different opinion to them. They just want lower immigration, which historically has been a left leaning ideology
This is young people, not red-faced beast men fighting outside the kebab shop with pool cues.
Do you know something about the UK I don’t?
Please tell me about how the Tories link into this graph?
The graph appears to show that from approximately 2010 (Libdem & Tory coalition) onwards for women, and a few years later (when we somehow got a full Tory government) for men, the younger people shown on the graph, said or thought something along the lines of “this Tory government is awful and we need to move in the opposite direction”.
Its about not voting for the tories. More than it is anything else.
Now there are more right options that will swing back. Hence how it is out of date.
Look I don’t know how to tell you this but just because you live in a bubble doesn’t mean everybody else does.
That is not “a big shift in the UK towards reform”, don’t be daft. They only have 4 MPs only two of which ever bothered turning up, they are about as politically relevant as my underwear.
Also Reform absolutely are far right they are basically Nazis, albeit brainless lazy incompetent ones. You need to go outside and interact with normal members of the human race rather than whoever it is you’re talking to on the “I’m not racist but…” Facebook group
14% of the vote from a brand new party, with signs that’s increasing. It not insignificant
You’re taking data out of context. You can make it say anything when you do that.
Labour won with fewer votes than they got in the last election which they lost. That tells me that this was mostly a protest vote people weren’t voting for any particular party that were voting for not to the conservatives.
But in the 2025 election the conservatives won’t be in power and so there won’t be a protest vote against them. If reform do well in those elections that would be evidence of a shift until then the balance of probability is simply that they were the obvious processed vote for the right-wing inclined that did not want to vote for the conservatives.
You cannot draw any conclusions from the results of such a politically unstable period.
Additionally I’m not letting you off the hook for in any way trying to suggest that the reform party are in any way shape or form anything but a bunch of bigoted misogynists. How dare you suggest that they are simply a right-wing political party that the other parties are trying to lambast in an attempt to discredit them. They are far right extremists, stop trying to defend them.
The average person wants lower immigration plain and simple.
That’s what reform is largely winning votes on. Something that historically has been a left view.
They are no where near as bad as everyone makes out. People are trying to paint them as Nazis.
Nigel farage literally (as in he actually did this) posed in front of a poster that was styled on Nazi propaganda. The only people making them out to be Nazis are themselves, they are being Nazis and people are pointing it out, that’s not people defaming them, that’s people pointing out that they are being Nazis. People like you are allow the hard right thrive, the bigots and racists are allowed to exist because apologists like you make excuses for them.
Please be better. Or if you can’t be better at least stop spreading your uninformed opinions on the internet, no one needs to hear the opinions of a Nazi apologist.
https://images.app.goo.gl/pL7xhiTGuwQPxKaKA
Here is a link in case you might want to possibly educate yourself. I recommended it because currently you sound like a tit.
Wow being against uncontrolled immigration is so Nazi.
Literally no other person could think immigration should go down for any reason or any amount without being a Nazi.
I’m really glad you showed me a photo of someone concerned with immigration when it’s the number one issue in the country. Really proved that, that guy is a Nazi.
I do think he’s a dickhead. But Nazis and reform are different.
🌳 Die? No. We lost them, and now we cannot find them.
Poor Treebeard…
Now I hear Treebeard whining about modern females and how none of them want to be Entwives for alpha Ents
If you read the books, you’ll find that you’re not far off.
