If you’re asking in good faith… Most of lemmy.ml is a tankie echo chamber that silences or outright bans any dissenting discussion.

Try bringing up the facts surrounding Russia, China, Cuba, or North Korea…

Only lies and good vibes for tankies are permitted.

Great; more extended sequence CGI montages, coming to your nearest IMAX theater.

I’m good after 2 worm sessions. Thanks.

You’re a breatharian? No corpse munching from you.

Are you pure enough that you feed the bacteria in your body without suffering?

This is false. The Chinese Revolution against the Nationalists was bloody, yes, but was caused by Nationalist oppression. What they have now is a functional state with high approval >ratings (and no evidence shown of fabricated approval ratings or oligarchy on your part). They aren’t perfect, but they are much better off.

Thanks for providing counter examples of how they aren’t fabricating data. Since you claim it’s only about banks

As noted, I’m against telling people what to do. Fascists and Marxists do that historically. Your response isn’t well they’re better and they don’t do that.

This happens under Capitalism, to a worse degree.

All Vibes, no substance.

Except you did defend them against improvements like Marxism.

I asked you to provide examples of Marxism being a better working system. We haven’t gotten there yet. We still have to prove Marxism is a workable improvement over existing systems.

It was drastically reduced or outright eliminated, and these countries are better for it.

All Vibes, no substance. Where’s your source?

Who is Amnesty.org From the Link: They’re not just one nationality or think tank. It’s a global movement of more than 10 million people which campaigns for a world where human rights are enjoyed by all.

Their stated vision: is of a world where those in power keep their promises, respect international law and are held to account.

Your stated vision: Establish a single ruling party to (tell everyone what to do) ensure everyone pays tribute to a single party that makes sweeping rules over everyone, and lies to everyone about what they’re actually doing.

They’ll become nobles of the in clique who get to exploit the proles for their labor and resources. If you disagree with the in clique, guess you go back to being a lowly worker.

How it is: Where China is now Express too much dissent and you can’t even get public transit tickets. Banned from buying tickets

More Amnesty.org links, more western chauvanism, it’s clear you’ll continue batting for fascists.

As stated. Not about telling people how they have to do things. Not a nationalist. You’re trying to attack me now? We’re debating ideas. You accused me of all vibes no substance. I start providing substance and you switch to all vibe. Again I attest, you are arguing in bad faith.

Keep saying fake news. You sound like you work for Trump, a solid fascist. Do you?

I am so glad you provided sources to back up your… Postive Vibes.

That link you didn’t provide, it is totally convincing everyone that the humanitarian reports are entirely fabricated.

The reports coming from independent journalists and screen recordings of folks being threatened for expressing dissent. Fake news according to you?

We aren’t moving from it, I don’t see what cherry-picking has to do with the subject at hand.

No, you provided a single example of the CPC doing something bad in the context of a country with citizen approval of the CPC at >95.6%. It is important to compare the US and other non-Marxist states because your point appears to be that Capitalism is better >than Marxism.

My argument is that violent revolution doesn’t seem to work out as well as advertised, especially with Marxism. The Chinese revolution killed millions of people, many who were innocent. All to end up with an oligarchy ruling over them and fabricating statistics.

Who is cherry picking? Everyone knows that China’s economic data is much worse than the official numbers. Just how big are the lies?

Abstract: China’s statistics are widely viewed as unreliable…

What do you mean by saying I have the right to “tell others what they can or cannot do?” That doesn’t make any sense, are you >arguing against the French Revolution, Haitian Revolution, etc.?

By Tell others, I mean just that. Marxism may have started out wonderfully ideal. In reality if you express opinions outside of the acceptable party lines - You are silenced or worse. This is true of all of your examples of Marxism.

China From the Report: “The government continued to systematically target human rights defenders…”

Cuba From the Report: “Surveillance and harassment of activists, opponents, journalists and artists continued to be widespread. Arbitrary detention and criminal processes without fair trial guarantees remained common and people deprived of liberty faced harsh prison conditions.”

Definitely not telling folks what to do. Definitely Ideals to hold up in arguments.

I’m concerned for America too. I didn’t hold them up as an ideal. USA

The French Revolution didn’t kill its intended targets. Except for that whole mishap, totally worked out. They punished the wrong people and led to a decent system for a while. (https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/02/01/why-is-france-so-corrupt-fillon-macron-le-pen/)

The American Revolution seems good on paper. It worked for awhile. Citizens United is an issue to me. Admittedly didn’t read everything about the Haitian revolution, though slaves(opressed) rising up against their opressors has a bit of schadenfreude in it for me.

Those didn’t end up in regimes that are not (at least temporarily) governed by their people.

Additionally, Revolution absolutely improved Cuba, Russia, Haiti, China, France, etc. You have to be arguing for fascist slavery, Tsarist >Monarchy, colonial slavery, colonial nationalism, and monarchism to be better than what came after. I hope you aren’t a fascism or >slavery supporter.

I disagree that revolution has resulted in the best possible position for Cuba, Russa, China and other Marxist regimes you’ve held up.

As stated, I’m not for telling people what to do. Doesn’t seem as if you asked, but I’m against slave labor, authoritarianism, patriarchies, colonialism, corporotocracy and feudalism. Not all revolutions have ended poorly, they have almost all been very bloody.

Capitalism itself decays over time, conditions get worse. The Capitalist class will not willingly hand over the reigns and improve >society via giving up power.

Capitalism never died in the places you think Marxism ruled.

It has.

Thanks for providing the wonderful shining examples of: Russia(what remains of the USSR), China, & Cuba.

Oh so we’re moving on from the topic of a working example of Marxism then. Why because I posted some links on the topic?

Overall though, the scope of harm committed by China pales in comparison to US and the rest of the West.

You really went to what-about? I provided sources as to why they aren’t examples of working Marxism and you did a what about.

I’m frustrated with trying to have a reasonable debate with people who think that they have the right to tell others what they can or cannot do. I don’t pretend I can tell others what to do. I don’t think our system is perfect. I’m not about to pretend that a revolution will end up better than where it started. Historically, it’s rare. Even when it happens, it doesn’t last.

Revolutions are as inevitable as the people who are willing to cooperate to make things better allow. In other words, it’s completely evitable.

I think treating folks fairly and not exploiting labor is a good idea. Marxism hasn’t led us there historically.

I see. I’ll keep waiting for that to happen. I fully expect human nature to continue as it has.

Please make sure you are ready to be the first since this is your ideal. The grinder needs meat to keep going.

History will continue to repeat itself as it has.

More vibes and unclear positions.

A person doesn’t have to have a clear position or solution to know that something isn’t right. This revolution you’re expecting, when does it start?

Do you have any real points, with supporting evidence, or are you content with just vibing your position?

Yeah, I’m not trying to vomit a bunch of falsehoods at folks to try to make a point by point argument. I don’t think I need to write a book to make a point.

You aren’t arguing in good faith. You’re ignoring facts and history.

Murders don’t end in those countries because the revolution is ‘finished’. Anytime someone disagrees they have to be disappeared or reeducated.

Is China such a success that they’re using hostages in China to threaten folks to keep their social media compliant with CCP ideals?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/05/china-overseas-students-face-harassment-and-surveillance-in-campaign-of-transnational-repression/

https://rsf.org/en/beaten-death-state-security-rsf-shocked-gruesome-murder-independent-journalist-china https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_August https://www.cato.org/blog/death-cuban-dissidents https://2017-2021.state.gov/chinas-disregard-for-human-rights/

Do you have any argument that doesn’t involve a bloodletting of society?

How? Please explain what this means. I am advocating for democratically controlling production so that it can service the needs and wants of the people, rather than wealthy Capitalists as it does in curreny society.

You’re advocating revolution, if I’m reading your words correctly.

That involves a radical restructuring of society. You’re advocating violently modifying the roles of individuals to fit your new goals. That has historically and always involved a bloodletting.

As I understand it Marxism is about being authoritarian in government (telling people what to do, and punishing those who don’t comply) and ensuring via government that resources are equally distributed. This concentrates power among the ruling elite. Historically, this continues the corruption it claims to end. So, what I’m saying essentially - that Marxism is a neat philosophy - It doesn’t line up with reality or achieve its stated goals.

It does kill all the dissenting opinions and create the echo chamber that has consistently been corrupted and hasn’t stood the test of time.

So if there’s to be a bloodletting. Let it begin with those asking for it, first.

As I mentioned, the examples of this working out in real life. Not so good. The USSR, currently dissolved and not a model I’d be interested in emulating. The folks I know who lived in it don’t want it back either.

Cuba, I’d say they had equality for citizens which they don’t, not a good example either.

China… Really?? Marxism? Really?? We’re glossing over Mao Zedong and a history of mass murder.

“The truths of Marxism are myriad, but it all comes down to one line: ‘Rebellion is justified!’” When the CCP was waging revolution and still trying to gain national power, this statement was a powerful shot in the arm. Once it became the ruling party, to bring this up again was to invite revolt against itself. That was exactly what happened in the Cultural Revolution. Its result was catastrophic, because Mao as a revolutionary was unable to make the transition from “breaking” to “making”. He once claimed: “There is no making without breaking. The making is in the breaking.” But that was just revolutionary romanticism misaligned with reality. In truth, it is much harder to “make” than to “break”. Source - https://www.thinkchina.sg/politics/new-paradigm-needed-china-cannot-achieve-common-prosperity-marxism-and-class-struggle

You’re expressing wonderful ideals.

They don’t seem to line up with the execution in the real world though.

My argument is that it won’t and hasn’t ever.

When a developer writes a program that doesn’t do what it’s supposed to, it gets rewritten. Marxists just keep trying the same philosophy. Maybe if we murder more people it’ll work.

Because every proletariat revolution has resulted in equality and not a speed run to mass poverty… Why would it work this time? When has it ever worked in reality? Where’s the beautiful shining example of Marxist success?

Let’s copy that now. (I can’t find an example of it).

When do you realize revolution is an acceleration of entropy in society.

You’re proposing to bloodlet society and end up with less for the people, and more for the rich.

Not to be pedantic, commercial systems do go through lock replacements if they are budgeting properly.

A guest wouldn’t notice unless they were watching maintenance teams replacing lock internal components.

How about when there are folks who have been harmed by people with agendas?

They’d prefer their code or commentary to be inclusive, not exclusive?

Season five was written without propery continuity.

The show had amazing actors, beautiful graphics, and bad story writing.

All the damage from season four is ignored, except Book’s romance.

There were entire sectors of space that are voids because of the last season.

If they were to use the power, they could rebuild kweijan and all of the damage to planets and creatures in season four.