He and I already gave context upthread, but here it is again.
NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard: U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University.
Robert Parry, 2015: The Ukraine Mess That Nuland MadeAssistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s regime change without weighing the likely consequences.
Sovereign countries can’t choose their allies? Really? When long-time neutral countries have decided that not even being neutral will protect them anymore from invasion, your answer is that they should be invaded?
Russia has the world’s largest land mass of any country, and the longest border. And they think they’re entitled buffer states all along that border? How is that in the interest of the people in those neighboring states? Most of them have already experienced the joys of having a Russian boot on their neck, and have voted with their feet to control their own destinies instead.
Sovereign countries can’t choose their allies? Really? When long-time neutral countries have decided that not even being neutral will protect them anymore from invasion, your answer is that they should be invaded?
History started only in the 2000s for you. I understand.
No, you can’t just place NATO missiles on the border just like the US freaked out about the Cuban missile crisis, which ironically was the USSR just retaliating because we placed missiles close to them in the first place.
Also another reason for the war is that we directed Ukraine to kill their ethnic Russians in the 2 independent republics. Putin complained to the UN but nobody would listen. Also we couped their government in 2014. https://youtu.be/L2XNN0Yt6D8
My favorite pastime is swapping the word Ukraine with Palestine:
Palestinians are not capable of defeating Israel. They need to make concessions with Israel and come to a peace agreement and two state solution. Palestinians should not fight back to recapture all their land. Israel will keep their word they are good for it.
Compromise? Ukraine needs to push every last Russian out of Crimea and recapture all their land! Who cares if they will win, fight till the last Ukrainian!
I have unironically seen your comment made for Palestine and the very opposite for Ukraine, from the exact same accounts. I’m not sure how they don’t see what they’re writing.
Can you explain why supporting US interests in the middle east is bad (among others arms sales in “Israel”), but supporting US interests in Ukraine (arms sales, privatization) is good somehow?
Oh so you don’t care about the people then, got it. You don’t care about the invaded people. If your stance is anti US, you are happy. Even if that’s a trash stance, at least you are consistent I guess.
The INVADED PEOPLE? Holy fuck man. Ukraine under our directions were and still are killing them by the tens of thousands!!! Are you a comic book villain or what? To this day, Ukraine is launching suicide drones and missiles at their (own) civilian population in the independent republics.
Are you trolling or uninformed? Maiden coup by the US? Murder of tens of thousands of ethnic Russians in the independent republics? Continual NATO overreach which Putin complained about to the UN multiple times?
Darn, I guess Russia will just have to keep losing hundreds of thousands of soldiers, their last few remaining naval ships, countless war resources, land within their own territory and suffer the consequences of continuing their invasion, like being dealt long range attacks on their territory
They only have about 20-30k dead. Ukraine is like 800,000+
Regardless of death figures that each state puts out consider this. What do both “sides” have to say about which side has air superiority and arms superiority? Now use your brain. Think real hard.
Yeah, both Ukrainians and Russians will continue dying, hundreds of thousands if not millions of people :(
I just hope it will end sooner rather than later, although I don’t see a chance of this happening unless somebody assassinates Zelensky or if USA elects Trump and he will keep his wording on ending it.
Very telling that your only assassination recommendation was zelensky and not putin. Followed up by only if trump wins? The only thing trump will do is shut off support to Ukraine because he’s putins fucking tool, just like you apparently
Very telling that your only assassination recommendation was zelensky and not putin.
Because the last time I checked, it’s Zelensky who for the whole duration of the conflict refuses any negotiation, not Putin. It’s Zelensky who turned Ukraine into a mass prison. It’s Zelensky whose regime kidnaps people on the streets and sends them to die.
Followed up by only if trump wins? The only thing trump will do is shut off support to Ukraine
That’s your opinion and nothing more than that. He promised to end the war by forcing both parties to negotiate.
But even if he “shuts off support to Ukraine” - this will be the best thing for Ukrainians that happened in the last 3 years. Without western support, Zelensky won’t be able to terrorize Ukrainians anymore.
Turn on English subtitles here and enjoy an ex colonel of AFU (generally an extremely pro-Ukrainian guy btw if you watch his other videos, you can’t claim this being a Russian propaganda ;-) ) talking about current anti-Ukrainian Ukrainian government turning Pokrovsk (and actually the rest of the country too) into a concentration camp: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7AXSB_WnYV0
Why should the president of an invaded country have to negotiate with the invaders? They can leave and then it’s all over.
Also it’s for you to say only Ukraine is taking people off the street. Putins been throwing prisoners on the front line. He is notorious for locking up any vocal dissenter… sooooo how are you not including him in this equation?
Are you walking about the org that was known as Wagner? They aren’t forced to fight. They do get incentives to fight that’s for sure. They defeated the most hardcore nazis, which we openly support (azov batallion) in Bahkmut.
Why should the president of an invaded country have to negotiate with the invaders? They can leave and then it’s all over.
Are you serious? Do you even know why this war is happening? Ukraine, which we couped in 2014, was killing and still is killing ethnic Russians in the 2 independent republics FOR NO REASON. They also continually plot and execute acts of terrorism against Russia on I’d say a minimum, at least one act every two weeks. Their SBU (their version of CIA) was started by OUR CIA. The feds bragged about it on NYT.
Why should the president of an invaded country have to negotiate with the invaders?
To save lives? And land (the sooner the negotiations start the more land there will be left for Ukraine. If the peace deal was signed at the very beginning, none of the land captured after 2022 would be lost)? Obviously Zelensky doesn’t care about that, as long as he’s pocketing those sweet sweet billions from USA…
They can leave and then it’s all over.
But they aren’t leaving, are they?
Putins been throwing prisoners on the front line.
So funny that you mentioned it :) There was so much coverage about Putin doing this, and very little when Zelensky started doing it.
He is notorious for locking up any vocal dissenter…
And so is Zelensky. He disbanded every party he didn’t like, as a matter of fact he is way more authoritarian dictator than Putin - even if you consider Russia’s elections rigged, Zelensky won’t hold any elections at all.
sooooo how are you not including him in this equation?
Feel free to include him.
It’s just mind blowing for me how much Zelensky terrorizes millions of people, and he is still considered a good guy. I guess it’s easy to glorify Hitler when you are not the one in Auschwitz.
Get your misinformation the F out of here Ivan. All Putin needs to do is LEAVE and the war is over. Russia are the aggressors, the invaders, and the side without morals or honor.
I’d very much like to know if something that I wrote is false! I’d hate being the one who spreads misinformation!
Please, I’m asking you, I’m fucking begging you - just tell me what is it? I’m not only going to delete any misinformation that I might have accidentally posted in this thread, I’m also going to apologize for posting it!
If you know that something I said is misinformation, and you don’t disprove it - you are not doing anyone a favour, as now not only people (me included) might believe this misinformation, they might also think that when you accuse someone of misinformation you simply mean that you dislike what they say…
Without western support, Zelensky won’t be able to terrorize Ukrainians anymore.
Yeah, right. Zelensky won’t be able to “terrorize” Ukrainians by resisting an imperialist invasion, and Putin will turn the entire country into a concentration camp run by a Russian stooge, while systematically destroying Ukrainian identity (which is cultural genocide) and strip-mining Ukraine of anything worth stealing.
And when such trustworthy nations as China and Iran, both of whom have been providing weapons to Russia, offer a peace plan, anyone who’s not an idiot will know that the plan rewards the aggressor and demands the capitulation of the victim. Just like China’s “peaceful” intentions towards Taiwan, and their “peaceful” seizure of territory in the Philippines. And we all know what a force for global peace the mad mullahs in Iran have been, when they’re not busy murderously suppressing anti-government demonstrations by their own people.
Then Putin will go on to similarly “liberate” the Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Moldovans, Georgians, and if Trump sufficiently undermines NATO, Poland too.
Yeah, right. Zelensky won’t be able to “terrorize” Ukrainians by resisting an imperialist invasion
Oh yeah, because it’s Zelensky who is resisting this “imperialist invasion”, right? It’s him, his family, his friends who are dying in the meatgrinder.
Oh wait, no it is not, he is flying around the world giving speeches about freedom, democracy and all that stuff, all while Ukrainians are imprisoned in the country and kidnapped from the streets and sent to die.
and Putin will turn the entire country into a concentration camp
Tell me more about those concentration camps. Tell me about concentration camps in Crimea? Tell me about the ones in Melitopol? Tell me, how Ukrainians who are on liberated territories are forced to stay there, how they are not free to leave at any moment (in contrast to those who are on Ukraine controlled territories)? I would love to know more about it.
While it’s true that Russia could just stop their invasion and leave and that’d be that, it’s not likely to happen. I really doubt they are willing to give up any of their conquered land.
Ten. It’s been ten years and the fact that so many people ignore this unfortunately makes the “Russian assets” argument look all that more legitimate. –It is a dumb argument but people really need to stop acting like this just started in 2022.
I’ve got a peace plan. Russia leaves Ukraine the fuck alone instead of invading, yeah? This world is too fucken much.
Because Russia just invaded out of nowhere, right?
I’m just happy there’s no mental gymnastics anymore about them being the invader. That’s something
Hey look who peeked their nose outside of their mind palace
Wat
What part am I explaining?
Preferably your whole comment
What do I get out of it?
New fone who dis
Yes that is indeed what happened.
Well you’re just stupid then
I might be, but lets put that to the side, why did russia invade ukraine?
If you’re actually curious and have 20 minutes, try this video: Ukraine: The Avoidable War
NATO expansion
Which is not real. I am saddened you choose to believe in it.
He and I already gave context upthread, but here it is again.
🤔
(via this article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO …which will presumably amaze you)
Posting maps and call it a day. Classic. Any kind of context is for nerds I guess?
Please dear, don’t do that. It makes you look so painfully misinformed.
Sovereign countries can’t choose their allies? Really? When long-time neutral countries have decided that not even being neutral will protect them anymore from invasion, your answer is that they should be invaded?
Russia has the world’s largest land mass of any country, and the longest border. And they think they’re entitled buffer states all along that border? How is that in the interest of the people in those neighboring states? Most of them have already experienced the joys of having a Russian boot on their neck, and have voted with their feet to control their own destinies instead.
History started only in the 2000s for you. I understand.
No, you can’t just place NATO missiles on the border just like the US freaked out about the Cuban missile crisis, which ironically was the USSR just retaliating because we placed missiles close to them in the first place.
Also another reason for the war is that we directed Ukraine to kill their ethnic Russians in the 2 independent republics. Putin complained to the UN but nobody would listen. Also we couped their government in 2014. https://youtu.be/L2XNN0Yt6D8
Demonstrate a good faith attempt to answer the question yourself. It’s been two years.
You’re the one that asked the question, “Because Russia just invaded out of nowhere, right?” It’s clearly your turn to answer here.
I wasn’t signing a contract to provide a service. I was mocking you for being oblivious/dishonest.
Jeffrey Sachs: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace
Etcetera.
My favorite pastime is swapping the word Ukraine with Palestine:
Palestinians are not capable of defeating Israel. They need to make concessions with Israel and come to a peace agreement and two state solution. Palestinians should not fight back to recapture all their land. Israel will keep their word they are good for it.
Compromise? Ukraine needs to push every last Russian out of Crimea and recapture all their land! Who cares if they will win, fight till the last Ukrainian!
bad fedpost is bad. stop supporting genocide.
That last one a depressingly common perspective among people in power in Ukraine, including Zelensky.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/5/zelenskyy-says-wants-ukraine-to-become-a-big-israel
It’s not surprising though, why would a leader not want their land back? Crymea was invaded in 2014, it’s only been 10 years.
I have unironically seen your comment made for Palestine and the very opposite for Ukraine, from the exact same accounts. I’m not sure how they don’t see what they’re writing.
Free Palestine, Slava Ukraini.
Can you explain why supporting US interests in the middle east is bad (among others arms sales in “Israel”), but supporting US interests in Ukraine (arms sales, privatization) is good somehow?
Free Palestine, Fuck NATO.
Oh so you don’t care about the people then, got it. You don’t care about the invaded people. If your stance is anti US, you are happy. Even if that’s a trash stance, at least you are consistent I guess.
Putting just randomly invading Ukraine. No interests, no security concerns, no geopolitics involved, am I right?
Oh so you don’t care about Israelis, just letting the Palestinians take hostages, got it.
The INVADED PEOPLE? Holy fuck man. Ukraine under our directions were and still are killing them by the tens of thousands!!! Are you a comic book villain or what? To this day, Ukraine is launching suicide drones and missiles at their (own) civilian population in the independent republics.
Yes because Russia only exists because of the UK giving the land from whatever-brown-people
Russia only exists in its present form because the Russians subjugated 190 other nationalities in a centuries-long imperialist expansion.
And the US?
https://x.com/I_Katchanovski/status/1832894760257991007
Are you trolling or uninformed? Maiden coup by the US? Murder of tens of thousands of ethnic Russians in the independent republics? Continual NATO overreach which Putin complained about to the UN multiple times?
Well, this doesn’t look like a realistic peace plan.
Darn, I guess Russia will just have to keep losing hundreds of thousands of soldiers, their last few remaining naval ships, countless war resources, land within their own territory and suffer the consequences of continuing their invasion, like being dealt long range attacks on their territory
They only have about 20-30k dead. Ukraine is like 800,000+
Regardless of death figures that each state puts out consider this. What do both “sides” have to say about which side has air superiority and arms superiority? Now use your brain. Think real hard.
Yeah, both Ukrainians and Russians will continue dying, hundreds of thousands if not millions of people :(
I just hope it will end sooner rather than later, although I don’t see a chance of this happening unless somebody assassinates Zelensky or if USA elects Trump and he will keep his wording on ending it.
Very telling that your only assassination recommendation was zelensky and not putin. Followed up by only if trump wins? The only thing trump will do is shut off support to Ukraine because he’s putins fucking tool, just like you apparently
Because the last time I checked, it’s Zelensky who for the whole duration of the conflict refuses any negotiation, not Putin. It’s Zelensky who turned Ukraine into a mass prison. It’s Zelensky whose regime kidnaps people on the streets and sends them to die.
That’s your opinion and nothing more than that. He promised to end the war by forcing both parties to negotiate. But even if he “shuts off support to Ukraine” - this will be the best thing for Ukrainians that happened in the last 3 years. Without western support, Zelensky won’t be able to terrorize Ukrainians anymore.
Turn on English subtitles here and enjoy an ex colonel of AFU (generally an extremely pro-Ukrainian guy btw if you watch his other videos, you can’t claim this being a Russian propaganda ;-) ) talking about current anti-Ukrainian Ukrainian government turning Pokrovsk (and actually the rest of the country too) into a concentration camp: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7AXSB_WnYV0
Why should the president of an invaded country have to negotiate with the invaders? They can leave and then it’s all over.
Also it’s for you to say only Ukraine is taking people off the street. Putins been throwing prisoners on the front line. He is notorious for locking up any vocal dissenter… sooooo how are you not including him in this equation?
Are you walking about the org that was known as Wagner? They aren’t forced to fight. They do get incentives to fight that’s for sure. They defeated the most hardcore nazis, which we openly support (azov batallion) in Bahkmut.
Are you serious? Do you even know why this war is happening? Ukraine, which we couped in 2014, was killing and still is killing ethnic Russians in the 2 independent republics FOR NO REASON. They also continually plot and execute acts of terrorism against Russia on I’d say a minimum, at least one act every two weeks. Their SBU (their version of CIA) was started by OUR CIA. The feds bragged about it on NYT.
To save lives? And land (the sooner the negotiations start the more land there will be left for Ukraine. If the peace deal was signed at the very beginning, none of the land captured after 2022 would be lost)? Obviously Zelensky doesn’t care about that, as long as he’s pocketing those sweet sweet billions from USA…
But they aren’t leaving, are they?
So funny that you mentioned it :) There was so much coverage about Putin doing this, and very little when Zelensky started doing it.
And so is Zelensky. He disbanded every party he didn’t like, as a matter of fact he is way more authoritarian dictator than Putin - even if you consider Russia’s elections rigged, Zelensky won’t hold any elections at all.
Feel free to include him.
It’s just mind blowing for me how much Zelensky terrorizes millions of people, and he is still considered a good guy. I guess it’s easy to glorify Hitler when you are not the one in Auschwitz.
You are human trash for sticking up for the aggressors here, you absolute piece of shit.
It’s in the Ukrainian constitution that they do not hold elections while at war. How horrible for Zelensky to follow their constitution.
Get your misinformation the F out of here Ivan. All Putin needs to do is LEAVE and the war is over. Russia are the aggressors, the invaders, and the side without morals or honor.
Sure, I will “get my misinformation the F out of here” as soon as you tell me what exactly is misinformation in my comment? :)
Guys, I’m absolutely serious, I’m not joking!
I’d very much like to know if something that I wrote is false! I’d hate being the one who spreads misinformation!
Please, I’m asking you, I’m fucking begging you - just tell me what is it? I’m not only going to delete any misinformation that I might have accidentally posted in this thread, I’m also going to apologize for posting it!
If you know that something I said is misinformation, and you don’t disprove it - you are not doing anyone a favour, as now not only people (me included) might believe this misinformation, they might also think that when you accuse someone of misinformation you simply mean that you dislike what they say…
Yeah, right. Zelensky won’t be able to “terrorize” Ukrainians by resisting an imperialist invasion, and Putin will turn the entire country into a concentration camp run by a Russian stooge, while systematically destroying Ukrainian identity (which is cultural genocide) and strip-mining Ukraine of anything worth stealing.
And when such trustworthy nations as China and Iran, both of whom have been providing weapons to Russia, offer a peace plan, anyone who’s not an idiot will know that the plan rewards the aggressor and demands the capitulation of the victim. Just like China’s “peaceful” intentions towards Taiwan, and their “peaceful” seizure of territory in the Philippines. And we all know what a force for global peace the mad mullahs in Iran have been, when they’re not busy murderously suppressing anti-government demonstrations by their own people.
Then Putin will go on to similarly “liberate” the Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Moldovans, Georgians, and if Trump sufficiently undermines NATO, Poland too.
Oh yeah, because it’s Zelensky who is resisting this “imperialist invasion”, right? It’s him, his family, his friends who are dying in the meatgrinder.
Oh wait, no it is not, he is flying around the world giving speeches about freedom, democracy and all that stuff, all while Ukrainians are imprisoned in the country and kidnapped from the streets and sent to die.
Tell me more about those concentration camps. Tell me about concentration camps in Crimea? Tell me about the ones in Melitopol? Tell me, how Ukrainians who are on liberated territories are forced to stay there, how they are not free to leave at any moment (in contrast to those who are on Ukraine controlled territories)? I would love to know more about it.
Why are you fedposting??? Btw I live in Taiwan and they don’t actually want to invade. There’s a thing called face and they need to deal with.
While it’s true that Russia could just stop their invasion and leave and that’d be that, it’s not likely to happen. I really doubt they are willing to give up any of their conquered land.
Ten. It’s been ten years and the fact that so many people ignore this unfortunately makes the “Russian assets” argument look all that more legitimate. –It is a dumb argument but people really need to stop acting like this just started in 2022.