It’s not just “Uncommitted” activists who are pressuring Kamala Harris on Gaza policy. Her own delegates are speaking out.
Archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20240821013836/https://theintercept.com/2024/08/20/dnc-harris-gaza-uncommitted-protest/
The leftists outside looked from liberal to nazi, and from nazi to liberal, and from liberal to nazi again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
I am a liberal in the U.S sense. Not a leftist, nor a democrat, and certainly not a nazi.
I really bristle at the notion that there’s no room between liberals that want revolution, and party-line toting democrats.
There are literally dozens of liberals who don’t view the Democratic Party as representing them, but also aren’t all that interested what happens under Christian fascism if normal people don’t vote, or corporate takeover if the people overthrow the government. (Because, after the military, only large corporations have the organization, capital, and manpower to direct society - and they would, if given the chance.)First, I appreciate your reference to literal dozens of liberals. 😁
Second, you’re right that most liberals don’t want revolution. Non-liberals too, for the most part! Unfortunately, in some corners of Lemmy, such as Hexbear or Lemmygrad, the ability to distinguish and discuss nuance is not included in what I would describe as their “community values”.
If you’re looking for a constructive discussion about policy issues, you’re barking up the wrong tree. Alternatively, if you prefer to discuss everything in terms of absolutes, and you love China and tanks, it could be a great time.
Unfortunately, in some corners of Lemmy, such as Hexbear or Lemmygrad, the ability to distinguish and discuss nuance is not included in what I would describe as their “community values”.
But I’m standing right here… Making a nearly identical point about liberals
You’re standing right here, on Lemmy.zip, not on your home instance, and the comment I was responding to was a response to a different Hexbear user who was literally saying that there is no difference between liberals and Nazis.
If I meant to reply to your comment, I would have done that.
It was incredibly jarring when I first got to Lemmy and started running into nutjobs who seem to be on some sort of crusade, spouting ideas so far out of touch that they’re either straight up trolling or they are state propaganda assets from a western adversary. Sometimes when people ask where these people are coming from, I like to provide something of an orientation, as the community will never survive off of nutjobs alone.
You’re missing my point.
I know full well where I’m posting. You’re talking about the importance of nuance, while painting all Hexbear users as somekind of monolithic hivemind.
Meanwhile, I a humble Hexbear user, am trying to ask a user from another instance, in good faith, to explain their ideological position in more depth. Because I earnestly want to know.
If you want to probe the “liberal=fascist” sentiment, we can. But that’s not the discussion I’m trying to have here.
You’re the pot calling the kettle black, my friend.
Friend, you’re right, I am missing your point.
I wasn’t trying to engage in a conversation with you at any point. I don’t know why you keep replying.
We seem to mostly be in alignment on the issue of liberals and Nazis not being the same. I was offering my viewpoint to the original commenter I replied to, just in the same way that you did, when you came at me with this “I’m standing right here” bullshit.
If you’re hurt because I’ve insulted your instance, that’s tough. If you hang out with Anarchists all the time, you aren’t allowed to get upset if someone calls you an Anarchist. I’m far from the only person who has pointed out the frequency of viewpoints that lack any connection to reality coming out of Hexbear. My comment was a PSA and I won’t apologize for calling it out.
I wasn’t trying to engage in a conversation with you at any point. I don’t know why you keep replying.
If you’re hurt
Reddit shit
You keep repeating this smug, Thatcherite “no connection to reality” line and I think it’s really not helping your case when you’re trying to appeal to “nuance”. I don’t think you have a very good idea of what leftists actually believe, or you’d have more to say about its substance.
I really bristle at the notion
Bristle away, it won’t un-dismember all those Palestinian kids
Your sensible middle ground reformists are literally making plans to end the world
If I may, can you clarify what you mean by
I am a liberal in the U.S sense. Not a leftist, nor a democrat,
In US political parlance, Liberal is typically synonymous with Democrats, and a broad, ill defined, ‘left’ of the political spectrum.
Outside the US, and in much of political science, liberal denotes a broadly centrist, status quo position, that can be left or right leaning.
And in neither of those definitions do liberals ‘want revolution’. At least not in the way that my fellow commies on Hexbear might typically conceive of it.
I have twice typed up huge novels and deleted them.
The very, very simple answer to your question is that I do not think the Democratic Party is liberal. They are a centrist party that pretends to encompass the left because U.S. election law is set up in such a way that only two parties can prevail at a national level.
The why? Those are the novels I keep writing - Election law/electoral finance laws and money. The parties won’t fix the laws, and money skews right. Thus, even the ‘left’ party is in the center.I say I’m liberal because that’s where I fit with the understanding I have. I did stipulate a U.S. liberal, because - the ‘spectrum’ has always been understood by me to be roughly defined left to right as revolutionaries, liberals, centrists, conservatives, and reactionaries.
Reduced even further, it’s just left, center, right. Liberal, centrist, conservative.
Because I view liberals as separate from centrists, and the Democratic Party as centrist, I don’t view them as encompassing my beliefs. (And, there are a number of actions they’ve taken or not taken that run contrary to my beliefs, too.)I think that I overlap with leftists on about 90% of views, honestly, but I’ve been attacked and told I support genocide in leftist communities when literally the only thing someone knows about me is that I don’t want republicans to gain power. I’m probably sort of sensitive to the assumption that liberals are supportive of every action of the Democratic Party. My ‘liberals that want revolution’ was a bit of an intentional reversion to the overly broad grouping I feel I’m subject to. Not intended to be an insult - more or less a dumb joke best accompanied by a shit-eating grin.
They’re funding a literal genocide against muslims right now so this isn’t much of a surprise. Anyone attending that to show support for that genocidal maniac would be like that.
Sadly they’re rationalizing it by blaming it all on bibi and Bidens just been too weak to stop anything another country is doing. If you point out anything contrary to that you’re a Russian troll.
Same if it’s the USA policy that can never change
while some in the section and another section behind the protesters started hitting the banner and the people holding it with their own signs.
Peaceful… Like the summer of love with its peaceful burning cities, assaults and murders.
No peaceful like jan 6th
As opposed to the Democrats’ very peaceful mass slaughter of innocent Arab children.
It was people holding “Thank you Joe” signs hitting people holding a “Stop arming Israel” banner. Anyone holding a “Thank you Joe” sign supports the genocide of Palestinians and this is just a very on-the-nose case of how they are trying to distract from that genocide, as despite their support for it, they are embarrassed to admit it plainly. Like crypyofascists but neoliberal.
The Summer of Love was a bunch of hippies and hippie-adjascent people engaging in what is basically hedonism in a single city for a summer. Drugs, sex, chilling, etc. This was during the Civil Rights Movement and Vietnam, so there is a parallel in that this crowd chose self-indulgence and complicity over forming an organized resistance to segregation and imperialism (their opposition to the Vietnam War, such as it was, was primarily based on sympathy for their war criminals rather than their Vietnamese people), but they were not the cryptofascists that went around justifying and fighting for those things. That was people note like William F. Buckley and, as you might expect, the lanyard-wearing political class like those attending the current DNC.
I’m not sure what you think The Summer of Love is but your comment sounds like a reactionary boomer Facebook comment.
Anyone holding a “Thank you Joe” sign supports the genocide of Palestinians
Have you ever considered that being this much of a reductionist is limiting your ability to understand the true nature of the world around you?
Joe Biden has been supporting the genocide of Palestinians for almost a year. It is public knowledge and there is a significant movement against it that these people are now literally trying to suppress.
“Thank you Joe” is a silly little bit of propaganda meant to derail all thought about both Biden’s obvious senility (as if he stepped down by choice, lol) and gloss over all criticism of Biden, such as his support for a genocide.
Personally, I think it’s pretty easy to just not support genociding Palestinians by not helping run interference for its primary sponsors. Unfortunately you seem to think this is difficult or, perhaps, complex. I would be happy to help you out if you need any assistance.
Yes, I recall the speeches Biden has given where he rallies the crowd against the Palestinian scourge!
Look, I’m not arguing that the Israelis are doing anything positive, I’m merely suggesting that the venn diagram of people who are thankful that Biden dropped out and people who support genocide is not a circle.
Yes, I recall the speeches Biden has given where he rallies the crowd against the Palestinian scourge!
This is like gesturing at W’s lip service in speeches about how the War on Terror wasn’t a war on Muslims. Do I need to explain to you how history did not bear out that distinction?
The difference here is that we can see the people Biden is unconditionally supporting in Israel and they most certainly are rallying crowds against the Palestinian scourge.
Biden doing his best to make the slaughter palatable to credulous liberals who want to focus on brunch does not change the reality on the ground. Harris, for the record, is no different except that she isn’t senile.
Yes, I recall the speeches Biden has given where he rallies the crowd against the Palestinian scourge!
Biden - of course, he is senile, so he is just a stand-in for the current Dem leadership - provides unconditional military, diplomatic, and financial support to Israel in their campaign to destroy Gaza. For example, the JDAMs used so extensively to destroy schools, hospitals, mosques, churches, bakeries, refugee camps, etc, are exclusively manufactured by Boeing and Israel “buys” them via US “aid”, which, in reality, is just the US government buying the weapons and giving them to Israel to commit genocide with. The US lashes out at every attempt to reign in Israel via diplomacy, gladly carries water for obvious lies intended to justify the genocide, and props up the Israeli economy through direct investment and trade relationships.
But sure, as I already mentioned, liberals try to whitewash and deflect from the genocide they know they are supporting. They use euphemisms and start acting erratically when you remind them of what they are celebrating. But everyone knows what unconditional material support for Israel’s genocide means. You know what it means.
Look, I’m not arguing that the Israelis are doing anything positive
They are ethnically cleansing Gaza as part of a settler colonial apartheid project that depends on US support.
I’m merely suggesting that the venn diagram of people who are thankful that Biden dropped out and people who support genocide is not a circle.
I’ve already described the function of this. Feel free to directly address it rather than hem and haw.
"…the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’ ”
- MLK
