Yeah, I’m inclined to think that too, they seem to care about following the rules and acting moderate more than Israel, but then I remember that it was them that armed hamas to carry out an incursion into Israel and now act like wise statesmen.
As seen by Iran’s reaction to the killing of Haniyeh as if he was general Soleimani himself, the hamas leadership (and Hezbollah) was acting at the orders of Iran. No Iran, no Oct 7th. Neither Israel nor prticularly Palestine benefitted from triggering Oct 7th.
Palestinians have a right to defend themselves, the Israeli government’s response is completely disproportionate and genocidal, but none of that refutes that Iran has been using Gaza, Hezbollah and the Houthis like chess pawns to strengthen their position in the middle east. Ask the Saudis and the Lebanese.
That’s why I find it ironic to see people believe Iran when it talks like it is the voice of reason in that part of the world.
Neither Israel nor prticularly Palestine benefitted from triggering Oct 7th.
Apart from Israel getting the excuse to do what they’ve always wanted to do, of course.
none of that refutes that Iran has been using Gaza, Hezbollah and the Houthis like chess pawns to strengthen their position in the middle east
Are they strengthening their position? Or is this a matter of survival? They’ve been under attack by the US and Israel for the past 2 decades. Framing their actions as some surreptitious plan to conquer the middle east is no different from describing Israel’s actions against Palestine as self defense.
It’s not so much that Iran is the voice of reason, but that they’re left with no other choice than to be the counterweight to what is happening. And if they had not done so covertly, they’d be putting their very existence in danger as well.
Apart from Israel getting the excuse to do what they’ve always wanted to do, of course.
Unless you’re saying bibi paid hamas to attack them, this is true, but…an unforced error on the part of hamas.
As for the rest about Iran’s strategy:
I guess every interlocutor of Iran in the world except the US and Israel are fine with that at this point as long as things deescalate. But going back to my original point, this should not be painted as Iran being the reasonable guys in contrast, there are a lot of interests in the middle east who are wary of their activities over time.
Unless you’re saying bibi paid hamas to attack them
Bibi paying Hamas is common knowledge. I assume the attack on October 7th was really convenient, and I would assume they at the very least let it happen. I think there is also evidence to support that theory, but since I’ve only watched from the sidelines, I’m not going to try and build a case.
this should not be painted as Iran being the reasonable guys in contrast
Well, what would be reasonable for Iran to do when it is being encircled, attacked, and for years called out as the next target? I think they’ve shown quite a lot of restraint as it is.
yeah, I don’t know, I feel that there are plenty of normal strategic honorable pragmatic (e.g. JCPOA and I know some iranian emigrants) people in Iran who are strongly against winning influence through the martyrdom of others, but while they are led by a theocracy that keeps supporting islamist groups, I’m skeptical of the overall improvement of the region from their strategic approach and looming leadership.
Who said Iran was behind the Oct 7th attack? Nothing they’ve been doing for the past 8 months seems to indicate they wanted this conflict. Arming Hamas is one thing. Greenlighting that kind of operation is another thing entirely. And on this argument, which has no evidence, israel decides to go ahead and assassinate a high ranking Iranian military man. So are you really condemning Iran for retaliating for something like that?
You talk about not believing Iran to be the voice of reason but you just completely dismiss everything Israel has been doing to escalate into a regional war. This war didn’t start in October. Israel was regularly killing and relocating Palestinians for generations.
Even with this genocidal campaign going on, Iran and Hezbollah have been showing a lot of restraint in avoiding an all out war. Iran isn’t perfect. But they’re not lead by genocidal monster hellbent on prolonging a war to stay in power. They’re not the ones targeting schools and hospitals during busy times to maximize casualties. They’re not the ones assassinating journalists to prevent people understanding just how brutal they are being to the Palestinians. So yes, in comparison they are the voice of reason in the region.
Who said Iran was behind the Oct 7th attack? Nothing they’ve been doing for the past 8 months seems to indicate they wanted this conflict. Arming Hamas is one thing. Greenlighting that kind of operation is another thing entirely. And on this argument, which has no evidence, israel decides to go ahead and assassinate a high ranking Iranian military man. So are you really condemning Iran for retaliating for something like that?
Yes, I am condemning Iran for using Palestine and hamas to attack Israel, it is very clear.
You talk about not believing Iran to be the voice of reason but you just completely dismiss everything Israel has been doing to escalate into a regional war. This war didn’t start in October. Israel was regularly killing and relocating Palestinians for generations.
I didn’t dismiss what Israel has done, I called it exactly as it is, things don’t exist in a vacuum, there is one layer where Israel killed 50000 Palestinians among whom 1/3 are hamas. At this level, bibi shat his bed, but there is no way to remove him and the attack just gave him more power. There is another layer where Iran and Israel are disputing the influence over 400 million people in the middle east and Israel is losing because of what it has done. That is no reason to deliver the whole region to Iran, seeing how far they are willing to go to get results.
Even with this genocidal campaign going on, Iran and Hezbollah have been showing a lot of restraint in avoiding an all out war. Iran isn’t perfect. But they’re not lead by genocidal monster hellbent on prolonging a war to stay in power. They’re not the ones targeting schools and hospitals during busy times to maximize casualties. They’re not the ones assassinating journalists to prevent people understanding just how brutal they are being to the Palestinians. So yes, in comparison they are the voice of reason in the region.
From any pov a posteriori, Iran should have shown restraint by preventing their “honorary general” Haniyeh from allowing Oct 7th. Now they are acting high and mighty by trying to go back to Oct 6th statu quo ante. But sure, anything is better than what there is right now or something even worse.
You’re making a lot of accusations regarding Iran being behind Oct 7th. No proof, though. Do you happen to have any? In fact, it came out pretty early that countries like Egypt tried to warn Israel about this attack, but they ignored it. Couple that with the fact that Bibi and the Israeli government has openly said that funding Hamas helps them in the long run one could think that they allowed it to happen.
What kind of proof do you need? That the leader of a terrorist organization attended the inauguration of the new President of Iran? Or that they want to go to war to avenge the killing of some guy who they had no business with and who wasn’t useful to them? The reaction to the killing with the Ayatollah leading the funeral says everything to anyone who wants to see it. It was practically a state funeral.
I can’t imagine there exists proof of communications or documents or photos of weapons shipments, but none of that would convince you either.
Hey, maybe you’re right Oct 7th was a stupid unforced error on the part of hamas done for no real reason, with no real aim beyond trying to show the World how evil Israel is by inevitably retaliating and killing Palestinian civilians in urban warfare. We can discuss how that fascist idiot bibi played a stupid game with internal politics and found out, maybe he even allowed it to happen, it would not be out of the realm of possibility. But the deep ties and coordination that Iran nurtures with Hezbollah, the Houthis and Hamas are part of Iran’s strategy since the 90s.
Yeah, I’m inclined to think that too, they seem to care about following the rules and acting moderate more than Israel, but then I remember that it was them that armed hamas to carry out an incursion into Israel and now act like wise statesmen.
How dare people fight back against oppression!!
Iran decided to fight Israel to the last Palestinian, how noble.
Hamas decided to attack Israel. Israel decided to slaughter Palestinians for it.
As seen by Iran’s reaction to the killing of Haniyeh as if he was general Soleimani himself, the hamas leadership (and Hezbollah) was acting at the orders of Iran. No Iran, no Oct 7th. Neither Israel nor prticularly Palestine benefitted from triggering Oct 7th.
Palestinians have a right to defend themselves, the Israeli government’s response is completely disproportionate and genocidal, but none of that refutes that Iran has been using Gaza, Hezbollah and the Houthis like chess pawns to strengthen their position in the middle east. Ask the Saudis and the Lebanese.
That’s why I find it ironic to see people believe Iran when it talks like it is the voice of reason in that part of the world.
Apart from Israel getting the excuse to do what they’ve always wanted to do, of course.
Are they strengthening their position? Or is this a matter of survival? They’ve been under attack by the US and Israel for the past 2 decades. Framing their actions as some surreptitious plan to conquer the middle east is no different from describing Israel’s actions against Palestine as self defense.
It’s not so much that Iran is the voice of reason, but that they’re left with no other choice than to be the counterweight to what is happening. And if they had not done so covertly, they’d be putting their very existence in danger as well.
Unless you’re saying bibi paid hamas to attack them, this is true, but…an unforced error on the part of hamas.
As for the rest about Iran’s strategy:
I guess every interlocutor of Iran in the world except the US and Israel are fine with that at this point as long as things deescalate. But going back to my original point, this should not be painted as Iran being the reasonable guys in contrast, there are a lot of interests in the middle east who are wary of their activities over time.
Bibi paying Hamas is common knowledge. I assume the attack on October 7th was really convenient, and I would assume they at the very least let it happen. I think there is also evidence to support that theory, but since I’ve only watched from the sidelines, I’m not going to try and build a case.
Well, what would be reasonable for Iran to do when it is being encircled, attacked, and for years called out as the next target? I think they’ve shown quite a lot of restraint as it is.
yeah, I don’t know, I feel that there are plenty of normal strategic honorable pragmatic (e.g. JCPOA and I know some iranian emigrants) people in Iran who are strongly against winning influence through the martyrdom of others, but while they are led by a theocracy that keeps supporting islamist groups, I’m skeptical of the overall improvement of the region from their strategic approach and looming leadership.
Who said Iran was behind the Oct 7th attack? Nothing they’ve been doing for the past 8 months seems to indicate they wanted this conflict. Arming Hamas is one thing. Greenlighting that kind of operation is another thing entirely. And on this argument, which has no evidence, israel decides to go ahead and assassinate a high ranking Iranian military man. So are you really condemning Iran for retaliating for something like that?
You talk about not believing Iran to be the voice of reason but you just completely dismiss everything Israel has been doing to escalate into a regional war. This war didn’t start in October. Israel was regularly killing and relocating Palestinians for generations.
Even with this genocidal campaign going on, Iran and Hezbollah have been showing a lot of restraint in avoiding an all out war. Iran isn’t perfect. But they’re not lead by genocidal monster hellbent on prolonging a war to stay in power. They’re not the ones targeting schools and hospitals during busy times to maximize casualties. They’re not the ones assassinating journalists to prevent people understanding just how brutal they are being to the Palestinians. So yes, in comparison they are the voice of reason in the region.
Yes, I am condemning Iran for using Palestine and hamas to attack Israel, it is very clear.
I didn’t dismiss what Israel has done, I called it exactly as it is, things don’t exist in a vacuum, there is one layer where Israel killed 50000 Palestinians among whom 1/3 are hamas. At this level, bibi shat his bed, but there is no way to remove him and the attack just gave him more power. There is another layer where Iran and Israel are disputing the influence over 400 million people in the middle east and Israel is losing because of what it has done. That is no reason to deliver the whole region to Iran, seeing how far they are willing to go to get results.
From any pov a posteriori, Iran should have shown restraint by preventing their “honorary general” Haniyeh from allowing Oct 7th. Now they are acting high and mighty by trying to go back to Oct 6th statu quo ante. But sure, anything is better than what there is right now or something even worse.
You’re making a lot of accusations regarding Iran being behind Oct 7th. No proof, though. Do you happen to have any? In fact, it came out pretty early that countries like Egypt tried to warn Israel about this attack, but they ignored it. Couple that with the fact that Bibi and the Israeli government has openly said that funding Hamas helps them in the long run one could think that they allowed it to happen.
What kind of proof do you need? That the leader of a terrorist organization attended the inauguration of the new President of Iran? Or that they want to go to war to avenge the killing of some guy who they had no business with and who wasn’t useful to them? The reaction to the killing with the Ayatollah leading the funeral says everything to anyone who wants to see it. It was practically a state funeral.
I can’t imagine there exists proof of communications or documents or photos of weapons shipments, but none of that would convince you either.
Hey, maybe you’re right Oct 7th was a stupid unforced error on the part of hamas done for no real reason, with no real aim beyond trying to show the World how evil Israel is by inevitably retaliating and killing Palestinian civilians in urban warfare. We can discuss how that fascist idiot bibi played a stupid game with internal politics and found out, maybe he even allowed it to happen, it would not be out of the realm of possibility. But the deep ties and coordination that Iran nurtures with Hezbollah, the Houthis and Hamas are part of Iran’s strategy since the 90s.
It’s like when people keep saying that the US is complicit in all that Israel does, same with Iran and groups like hamas. I just didn’t expect it to be that blatant. e.g. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iranians-mourn-hamas-leader-haniyehs-assassination-2024-08-01/