Sure, I totally buy that Biden and Kamala want to outlaw trans people, abortion, birth control, end unions, end democracy, and otherwise just be totally as bad as Republicans. The fact that they do bad things mean that there cannot possibly be any distinction and therefore there will be no consequences whatsoever to letting the fascists win. Roe v. Wade certainly would have still been overturned if the election in 2016 had gone the other way, too, right?
There is like zero chance you or anyone else is going to apply any pressure or even this energy to Biden and Kamala to get them to change course, is there?
Absolutely ridiculous coming from someone not capable of understanding that the material conditions created by “harm reduction” neoliberal D governments of Clinton, Obama, and Biden actually accelerated the rise of fascism in the US
What makes you think I don’t understand that? I just care about the people who will be hurt by fascists if we let them gain power. Do you really think you can’t keep doing your work while also using the current system to slow the decline and give yourself more time? Because let’s be real for a minute. If it comes to the worst we will lose. There will be no popular revolution in America. Nobody’s going to join your side when it all goes to shit. If we can’t fix things while keeping this shitshow limping along the death toll will dwarf anything the world has ever seen. There is too much at stake right now. Too many things on the verge of going horribly wrong on global scales. It won’t be the end of humanity, but it will probably be the death of billions and the start of a new dark age. Also, it’ll just be more people dead and more rights lost over the next 4 years, but obviously you don’t give a shit about that part.
What, materially, other than nice sounding words, has Biden and federal-level Democrats in general done to counteract what is happening to trans people in red states right now? What indication is there that Democrats care to do anything for trans people on a federal level? On the state level, sure, there’s been some action to make blue states sanctuary states and such, but federally?
abortion, birth control,
Again, what have Biden and the federal level Democrats done about this? Did they codify Roe while they had the chance? Did they pack the courts so Roe couldn’t be overturned? Did they build abortion clinics on Federal land? Or did they just, yet again, say nice words?
end unions
Biden literally broke a strike lmao. Personally, by his own hands. One of the few proactive things he has done in his whole presidency is to actively break a strike.
end democracy
We already don’t live in a democracy. Youre choice is between outright facism and pretty damn close to fascism, and in most places in the country you dont even get to contribute to that choice.
and otherwise just be totally as bad as Republicans
On forgein policy and economics? Yeah pretty much. On social issues? Democrats will say nice words but, again at least federally, not materially do anything.
Roe v. Wade certainly would have still been overturned if the election in 2016 had gone the other way, too, right?
2016 is in the past and you learned the wrong lesson from it. 2016 taught us that running a shitty milquetoast war criminal neoliberal candidate that noone other than wine moms likes against fascism (and pied pipering him as the nominee because you think you can beat him in the process btw!!!) doesn’t work. And again, both Obama and Biden could have codified Roe and didn’t. And Biden could have packed the courts to prevent the overturn.
All in all, electorialism won’t save us. And the violent solutions you wanted to avoid in your first post are actually our only way out of this mess. But they need to be organized.
Oh, also, like holy shit I can’t believe I forgot this part, but are you seriously so delusional that you think you can defeat the US army with less resources, manpower, and popular support than it would take to win an election? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life.
It’s not about defeating the us army lmao. It’s about striking and civil disobedience, even when illegal. That is the basic strategy to win concessions. On a long term basis, there needs to be more pressure on Democrats to maintain standards instead of just electing garbage candidates.
That’s not what I was talking about. I think all of that is great. It won’t be enough if Trump ends democracy though, which he just publicly promised to do yesterday, in case you missed the news.
Why would it not be enough? Do you think the purpose of striking is to convince more people to vote? No, it’s to force concessions directly.
That’s why building up dual power via leftist organizing is the key through-line of leftist thought, rather than playing into the game set up by the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie.
Because the fascists will start shooting people who strike. And we just don’t have what it takes to win that war. We will lose, and the world will be worse because of it.
Because the fascists will start shooting people who strike.
This has historically been true under both the Democrats and Republicans, because Capitalists control both of those parties. Far-right violence has increased under Biden. The fact of the matter is that Capitalism and by extension Imperialism are in constant decay. Fascism is a violent attempt to “turn the clock back” to the “good old days” via nationalism, and class collaborationism between the Bourgeoisie and Petitie Bourgeoisie, think Tesla and Small Business Owner techbros.
Fascism is not present because Trump is present, a liberal beating a fascist electorally will not stop fascist violencd, but increase it. Leftists must organize.
And we just don’t have what it takes to win that war.
We absolutely do have what it takes. The faster liberals side with leftists and take strong stances against fascism, rather than cast approval of fascist enablers, the better it will be.
We will lose, and the world will be worse because of it.
Not entirely sure the world would be worse off if the US collapsed. The US is the largest Empire in the world, billions of people would be celebrating through the streets.
Do you seriously think that fascist violence would be limited to just nutjobs acting outside the law in a fascist regime. That ain’t how this works. There’s a reason I brought up the US army. It wouldn’t be the first time they were brought in to end strikes. The simple fact of the matter is that the difference in military power between the army and socialists has only gotten more and more cartoonishly unbalanced as time has gone on though.
Liberals will not side with us here in the US. You would know that if you ever talked to any. They’ll fight the fascists on their own, and honestly I think they’ll probably win if it comes down to it, but they probably won’t even bother to use us as allies to abandon. We’re not even important enough in the US for even that level of indignity.
If the US could just peacefully implode in a time where the world wasn’t facing a massive wave of authoritarianism and an impending global warming crisis it would be an objectively good thing. We don’t live in that world though. The consequence of a US civil war right now would be billions dying in the streets, not celebrating.
You don’t have a democracy that can be ended. You haven’t had one from the beginning of your republic. America is an aristocracy and anyone deluded enough to believe that it ever had anything approximating a democracy simply hasn’t learnt anything.
First, after Biden broke that strike he spent the next year getting the Railroad union everything they asked for. It wasn’t as edgy or exciting, so it didn’t make the news, but he still did it.
As for the rest of it, Jesus Christ how hard is this to understand. The Democrats are fundamentally conservative. They want to keep things the same. The Republicans are actively fighting to make things worse. I don’t want to let the people trying to make things worse win. In what fucking world is that a controversial take? Seriously.
And really, your argument about 2016 is that I’m right and you don’t care because it isn’t perfect? Because that’s what I got from what you wrote. I don’t like Hilary Clinton. At all. I voted for Jill Stein in that election, and I still regret it even though she won my state anyway. I don’t believe electorialism will make the world a better place. I believe it takes 5 minutes every couple years and can stop things from getting worse while we try to solve problems in more practical ways.
Sure, I totally buy that Biden and Kamala want to outlaw trans people, abortion, birth control, end unions, end democracy, and otherwise just be totally as bad as Republicans. The fact that they do bad things mean that there cannot possibly be any distinction and therefore there will be no consequences whatsoever to letting the fascists win. Roe v. Wade certainly would have still been overturned if the election in 2016 had gone the other way, too, right?
There is like zero chance you or anyone else is going to apply any pressure or even this energy to Biden and Kamala to get them to change course, is there?
Oh, I absolutely will starting in November. I’ll be loud about it. For now I need to beat the fascists first though.
This is what Democrats did this year.
You know, you would get killed in Russia for your need to use different pronouns.
No shit sherlock. Still better than 2020. Is your memory really that short?
Absolutely ridiculous coming from someone not capable of understanding that the material conditions created by “harm reduction” neoliberal D governments of Clinton, Obama, and Biden actually accelerated the rise of fascism in the US
What makes you think I don’t understand that? I just care about the people who will be hurt by fascists if we let them gain power. Do you really think you can’t keep doing your work while also using the current system to slow the decline and give yourself more time? Because let’s be real for a minute. If it comes to the worst we will lose. There will be no popular revolution in America. Nobody’s going to join your side when it all goes to shit. If we can’t fix things while keeping this shitshow limping along the death toll will dwarf anything the world has ever seen. There is too much at stake right now. Too many things on the verge of going horribly wrong on global scales. It won’t be the end of humanity, but it will probably be the death of billions and the start of a new dark age. Also, it’ll just be more people dead and more rights lost over the next 4 years, but obviously you don’t give a shit about that part.
What, materially, other than nice sounding words, has Biden and federal-level Democrats in general done to counteract what is happening to trans people in red states right now? What indication is there that Democrats care to do anything for trans people on a federal level? On the state level, sure, there’s been some action to make blue states sanctuary states and such, but federally?
Again, what have Biden and the federal level Democrats done about this? Did they codify Roe while they had the chance? Did they pack the courts so Roe couldn’t be overturned? Did they build abortion clinics on Federal land? Or did they just, yet again, say nice words?
Biden literally broke a strike lmao. Personally, by his own hands. One of the few proactive things he has done in his whole presidency is to actively break a strike.
We already don’t live in a democracy. Youre choice is between outright facism and pretty damn close to fascism, and in most places in the country you dont even get to contribute to that choice.
On forgein policy and economics? Yeah pretty much. On social issues? Democrats will say nice words but, again at least federally, not materially do anything.
2016 is in the past and you learned the wrong lesson from it. 2016 taught us that running a shitty milquetoast war criminal neoliberal candidate that noone other than wine moms likes against fascism (and pied pipering him as the nominee because you think you can beat him in the process btw!!!) doesn’t work. And again, both Obama and Biden could have codified Roe and didn’t. And Biden could have packed the courts to prevent the overturn.
All in all, electorialism won’t save us. And the violent solutions you wanted to avoid in your first post are actually our only way out of this mess. But they need to be organized.
Oh, also, like holy shit I can’t believe I forgot this part, but are you seriously so delusional that you think you can defeat the US army with less resources, manpower, and popular support than it would take to win an election? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life.
It’s not about defeating the us army lmao. It’s about striking and civil disobedience, even when illegal. That is the basic strategy to win concessions. On a long term basis, there needs to be more pressure on Democrats to maintain standards instead of just electing garbage candidates.
That’s not what I was talking about. I think all of that is great. It won’t be enough if Trump ends democracy though, which he just publicly promised to do yesterday, in case you missed the news.
Why would it not be enough? Do you think the purpose of striking is to convince more people to vote? No, it’s to force concessions directly.
That’s why building up dual power via leftist organizing is the key through-line of leftist thought, rather than playing into the game set up by the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie.
Because the fascists will start shooting people who strike. And we just don’t have what it takes to win that war. We will lose, and the world will be worse because of it.
This has historically been true under both the Democrats and Republicans, because Capitalists control both of those parties. Far-right violence has increased under Biden. The fact of the matter is that Capitalism and by extension Imperialism are in constant decay. Fascism is a violent attempt to “turn the clock back” to the “good old days” via nationalism, and class collaborationism between the Bourgeoisie and Petitie Bourgeoisie, think Tesla and Small Business Owner techbros.
Fascism is not present because Trump is present, a liberal beating a fascist electorally will not stop fascist violencd, but increase it. Leftists must organize.
We absolutely do have what it takes. The faster liberals side with leftists and take strong stances against fascism, rather than cast approval of fascist enablers, the better it will be.
Not entirely sure the world would be worse off if the US collapsed. The US is the largest Empire in the world, billions of people would be celebrating through the streets.
Do you seriously think that fascist violence would be limited to just nutjobs acting outside the law in a fascist regime. That ain’t how this works. There’s a reason I brought up the US army. It wouldn’t be the first time they were brought in to end strikes. The simple fact of the matter is that the difference in military power between the army and socialists has only gotten more and more cartoonishly unbalanced as time has gone on though.
Liberals will not side with us here in the US. You would know that if you ever talked to any. They’ll fight the fascists on their own, and honestly I think they’ll probably win if it comes down to it, but they probably won’t even bother to use us as allies to abandon. We’re not even important enough in the US for even that level of indignity.
If the US could just peacefully implode in a time where the world wasn’t facing a massive wave of authoritarianism and an impending global warming crisis it would be an objectively good thing. We don’t live in that world though. The consequence of a US civil war right now would be billions dying in the streets, not celebrating.
You don’t have a democracy that can be ended. You haven’t had one from the beginning of your republic. America is an aristocracy and anyone deluded enough to believe that it ever had anything approximating a democracy simply hasn’t learnt anything.
First, after Biden broke that strike he spent the next year getting the Railroad union everything they asked for. It wasn’t as edgy or exciting, so it didn’t make the news, but he still did it.
As for the rest of it, Jesus Christ how hard is this to understand. The Democrats are fundamentally conservative. They want to keep things the same. The Republicans are actively fighting to make things worse. I don’t want to let the people trying to make things worse win. In what fucking world is that a controversial take? Seriously.
And really, your argument about 2016 is that I’m right and you don’t care because it isn’t perfect? Because that’s what I got from what you wrote. I don’t like Hilary Clinton. At all. I voted for Jill Stein in that election, and I still regret it even though she won my state anyway. I don’t believe electorialism will make the world a better place. I believe it takes 5 minutes every couple years and can stop things from getting worse while we try to solve problems in more practical ways.